Any advice on this butcher job?

[Trinity Honoria]

The question I have is why in the hell don't people do some research or at least ask someone that does know about proper tree pruning before they spend money??? There is more info available then ever before concerning trees and how to properly care for them.

Apperently it just boils down to the fact that people still don't care enough about trees and the role they play on this planet and in our everyday lives to hire quailfied people to work on them. As long as the attitude of the masses is " It's just a tree" let the the cheap guy do the job, we will never see any type of professionalism in arborculture. Incidents like this are just going to repeat themselves over and over, by the time we wake up it might be too late to turn the clock back.

Larry

Larry!
as a simple home owner, i dispute the fact that all of us don't care enough or don't do research-- there's so much mis-information out there! you can do research all day long and still be WRONG! someone on another topic listed a guy's website who blabbed on about how everyone in tree biz was wrong BUT him... i forget the lousy advice he gave... but many novices would read his site and take it for truth...

in my case, several years ago, i called the most trusted arborist in this county... long time in the biz... and i was told in days gone by that he was a qualified arborist (what did i know?)... well, he came by and i told him what i wanted: my two pecan trees topped (people i know & love, long time home owners, told me this was what i needed...)... i asked him if this was what i needed...

trusted 'arborist' said topping was OK, for the 2 pecan trees, and for $900, he'd do it-- call him when after Christmas, when the tree was dormant... (the $900 was with the single mother discount i didn't ask for) (yes, a reference to another topic...)...

luckily, i needed my tax refund money for something silly-- perhaps food or shoes for the kids ... and i didn't have the tree work done...

NOW, since y'all have educated me, often with the Larry-style of laying it on the line, i just looked to see: said trusted arborist is not ISA listed... nor is the fella taking over his business... in fact, in my community, there is only one.

one of you delightful gents, if schedule permits, will be coming to help me get control over the jungle in the back yard... i told a friend about it, including that i fully expected to have a new rectal track by the time he finished fussing at me... she asked why i would allow it... i simply said: i trust him, and as he fussed, i would certainly know what to do with the plants/trees in the future.

i realize that there are many home-owners who are ignorant... Lord knows not many would hang in here... LOL... but there are those of us who are teachable and trainable...

so, keep laying it on the line... some of us listen.

 

[Kate Butler]

If she decides to sue (and I believe that she ought to), will the settlement include the removal of the apparently hopelessly damaged hemlock?

Shocking work! I like the idea of a sign decrying the "expertise" of the company.

Lesson?? Be prepared to be at home when tree people come to do work for you. Her presence might not have prevented the hacking, but could have lessened it.

 

[Urban Forester]

I have'nt seen a reply to the initial question as to survivability, so I'll give it a shot. The hemlock will most likely survive as it is well established (obviously) 'but at what price glory' It's now basically a 'lollypop' and not much to look at. Due to it's age not much will ever 're-grow' where it was stripped, so 'fill-in' (other than a few weird suckers) will not occur. The decidious trees are really the problem. Next spring they will 'revolt' at the hack job (topping) that was done by 'witch-brooming' (suckering) at the main leads, where the cuts where made. This is a normal response (i.e. a 50ft tree will grow to 50 ft.- topping is a short term B.S. approach to altering a growth habit that truly can't be altered by that method.) Down the road 2 to 3 yrs.? corrective pruning BY A PROFESSIONAL may need to be done to selectively remove some of the suckers and TRY to re-establish a 'normal' growth habit. At that point FALL deep root feeding may be considered to help re-establish vigor and promote root development. Also a growth regulator (Flurprimidol or paclobrutrozol) could be applied IN SMALL QUANITY to help balance root/shoot ratio. DO NOT FEED THESE TREES NOW! Nitrogen applied at more than 2 lb. per 1,000 sq.ft. COULD trigger a growth response (signal) that could INCREASE the suckering. In a nutshell your neighbor has been screwed royally by a person that has very little training/knowledge. His actions are what makes it more difficult for the rest of the industry (the honest and professional ones) to gain the publics trust. Without sounding like I'm piling on an already terrible situation the old adage "You get what you pay for" AND more importantly "Buyer beware" apply here. I'm very sorry this happened.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If I were in this situation, those trees would all now be removals. The trees, in my opinion, are a complete loss.

 

[Trinity Honoria]

I have'nt seen a reply to the initial question as to survivability, so I'll give it a shot... edit by Trinity... Also a growth regulator (Flurprimidol or paclobrutrozol) could be applied IN SMALL QUANITY to help balance root/shoot ratio. DO NOT FEED THESE TREES NOW! Nitrogen applied at more than 2 lb. per 1,000 sq.ft. COULD trigger a growth response (signal) that could INCREASE the suckering. In a nutshell your neighbor has been screwed royally by a person that has very little training/knowledge. His actions are what makes it more difficult for the rest of the industry (the honest and professional ones) to gain the publics trust. Without sounding like I'm piling on an already terrible situation the old adage "You get what you pay for" AND more importantly "Buyer beware" apply here. I'm very sorry this happened.

thank you for your thorough reply...

i know i sound like a broken record, but even with the difference of opinion often expressed passionately on this site, i have learned so much! for all of you who invest time in answering questions, dueling with one another over different perspectives-- well, the wealth of knowledge on this site is incredible!!! thanks again...

 

[treeseer]

Mike and Urban, I don't know how many Carya illinoisensis are in MI and WI for you to see come out of a hack job. THey are most definitely salvageable; calling them a complete loss is an overreaction, possibly an underinformed one.

They are messed up, but Nature has a way. Yes we can help restore the crown but the tree will do it itself too, albeit with more decay and poorer form.

 

[BlackenedTimber]

first, i dont see $3000 in that job anywhere. Second, i dont think that the homeowner was specific enough about what she wanted. third, call the BBB, if he's legit, they will be able to file a complaint against him and work on the homeowner's recourse. and finally, fourth, that's some horrible cutting on the trees adjacentto the hemlock, assuming that like skwerl said, he wasnt removing ice damage. Just a pitiful situation all around. all the competition around here makes that type of work thier staple.... just garbage.

 

[treeseer]

The BBB will do....what??

That's horrible damage on the hardwoods, even if they were ice-damaged.

Urban, don't you see high risk in that hemlock now?

The thing to learn would be...what's up with the highballer? Did the victim inflate that estimate just to make her unfortunate decision seem justified?

 

[Trinity Honoria]

The thing to learn would be...what's up with the highballer? Did the victim inflate that estimate just to make her unfortunate decision seem justified?

there are a number of trees in the backyard as well-- it isn't just the 3 in the front... and i have no idea about the highballer... didn't seem odd to me, since several years back (when gas was still under $1.50/gal), i was given a price of $900 for two trees topped... but then, what do i know? i do know that i am terrified to get any one to work on my trees, if needed (the guy i trusted & called about doing whatever you tree people do to the broken limb returned my call, but never showed up... now i see he isn't a listed on the ISA site, is buying the successful business of the longest running local tree service... who isn't listed at ISA either.... sigh. feeling a bit helpless here, guys... but it seems like i have no immediate need for my trees, so all is well!!!

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

Treeseer said, "The owner's original idea to raise the hemlock to open the house view was not a good one"

so what's the original option Guy? Take the tree out completely? I would think raising the crown 6 to 8 feet, to satisfy the customer and save the maximum amout of tree is prefered.

that is a terrible job and all to common around here. No matter how many ISA pamphlets I hand out, the topping multiplies.

As for saving the the topped hardwoods, it is usually worth the work IMO. The only ISA cert arborist near me takes the stance that the only option for a topped tree is removal. I've fought the battle to save the tree once or twice

 

[Jumper]

Then there was this number done on a city owned tree by the homeowner. The area forester declined to get involved, yet this is the same crowd that charges $100 for a permit to remove trees that are on private property. I will get a pic of the tree two years on....it is still there but has sprouted a large number of 4 foot long suckers. A real thing of beauty

Sent to my councillor today. He seems to be someone who gets things done....

Approximately two years ago I brought the damage done
to this tree, owned by the city, to the attention of
the forestry department.
Appparently some misguided homeowner decided to
severely top it, and in the process, irrepably damaged
what was a 33 year old maple, planted and maintained
by first Scarborough, and now Toronto.
Nothing appears to have been done, though at the time
I strongly suggested the person responsible be billed
for a replacement tree of similar size. At present, in
an attempt to live, it has sprouted a large number of
sucker sprouts and is an eyesore, and will become a
hazard, given the structure of the tree has been
compromised.
This tree needs to be removed and replaced, and the
homeowner made aware he/she is not to "trim" city
owned property again.
I am not a certified arborist, but have worked in the
industry for some time, and know what constitutes care
and butchery. This is the latter. Also of particular
concern is the City's apparent inability to care for
its own inventory of trees, this location and
elsewhere, which leads me in turn to have concerns
regarding charging individuals for removal permits of
privately owned trees on private land.
I await your comments with regards to action taken.

And the interim answer


I have received the following e-mail from Mr. Macleod. Can you follow up and investigate this matter and get back to me please.
Mitch, thank you for pointing this out Beverly Glen is a nice street and if you do not nip items quickly can become an eyesore.

So maybe someone will get off their arse at City Hall.....

 

[Sheshovel]

If I were in this situation, those trees would all now be removals. The trees, in my opinion, are a complete loss.

I agree completely with Mass.
Also the BBB can do nothing but put him on a complaint list and in order to do that they will need his home address ,I am sure the Hmownr was not given THAT information about him,she probably only has a phone #
that is the extent of what they can do to him..if asked about him specificly they can tell you if he is on their list or not..that is pretty much it.She will also need more than a name and phone # to file in court to get her money back from him and get him to pay damages too..that is what I would do if I were her..but then I would never allow anybody near my tree's unless I was right there making sure they were't hacks either.But no matter she needs a name and ph# and address of the guy or his company to do anything to him at all.
I doubt the guy will answer her calls either.Unless he is a State certified Contractor or a Certified Arborist
she has no recourse for action against him to recover her money if anything.Her Homeowners MIGHT cover if the trees die.and she removes them to stop any possible damage from trees falling on the house....that is it.

 

[Trinity Honoria]

I agree completely with Mass.
Also the BBB can do nothing but put him on a complaint list and in order to do that they will need his home address ,I am sure the Hmownr was not given THAT information about him,she probably only has a phone #
that is the extent of their athuority..if asked about him specificly they can tell you if he is on their list or not..that is pretty much it.
I doubt the guy will answer her calls either.Unless he is a State certified Contractor or a Certified Arborist
she has no recourse for action against him to recover her money if anything.Her Homeowners MIGHT cover if the trees die..that is it.

no problem finding him-- he drops a kid off at the highschool every morning as i'm dropping my daughter off... he is arrogant enough he has answered all of her calls. one quote, "Lady, i can't put limbs back on a tree."

recourse? that's up to her... i have shared all the views shared here (and she might've viewed them as a guest...)...

Kate Butler is coming through town in a few weeks... i'll take her down by the trees to take a look...

 

[Sheshovel]

It would be a good thing if she could dig up pics of the trees she may have taken before the work and completely document the work in pics now the damage has been done..judges love pics.
If he lead her to believe he was an arborist and knew what he was doing..when he in fact did not..then thats false representation of his skills and she can sure nail him on that charge.

 

[treeseer]

"so what's the original option Guy? Take the tree out completely? I would think raising the crown 6 to 8 feet, to satisfy the customer and save the maximum amout of tree is prefered."

I agree, Mike, but my point was the best option on hemlocks, magnolias etc is to let their branches sweep to the ground. Raising these species leads to a lifetime of maintenance--pruning drooping limbs, maintaining the ground beneath...Was there a burning need to open the view of the stoop? I think not.

"she needs a name and ph# and address of the guy or his company to do anything to him at all...
she has no recourse for action against him to recover her money" Sheshovel is right about ID'ing the perp, but Does the owner have recourse? Perhaps, if the perp advertised himself as a professional and did work like that, he could be found responsible for damages. It has worked that way in NC. I wouldn't put a lot of weight on legal advice from a non-lawyer in a state far, far away.

Mitch/Jumper, I agree that the topped maple is a sorry mess and restoration cost may be high because it will take several visits over the years to get its shap back. And yes there will still be decay.. Re that, yes billing the perpetrator for the replacement value of the tree seems fair.

But since you can't replace a tree that size, they'd need to get someone to appraise the value of the tree as it was before the wounding to get a fair settlement.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike and Urban, I don't know how many Carya illinoisensis are in MI and WI for you to see come out of a hack job. THey are most definitely salvageable; calling them a complete loss is an overreaction, possibly an underinformed one.

They are messed up, but Nature has a way. Yes we can help restore the crown but the tree will do it itself too, albeit with more decay and poorer form.

When I get asked anout whether or not a tree should be a removal, one trick I use is to ask the customer, "If this tree was gone, how much would you pay to have this tree put here?"
The answer I sometimes get is, "I wouldn't pay a dime to have this tree here."
If you wouldn't pay to have it, it's value is less than zero.
In the case of the evergreen, I doubt anyone would pay to have that tree in their yard. We could argue about the other trees, but I don't think too many folks would pay a large sum of money to have trees that look like that, because it's going tp be a lengthy, expensive job to restore them to trees that are worth anything.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

no problem finding him-- he drops a kid off at the highschool every morning as i'm dropping my daughter off... he is arrogant enough he has answered all of her calls. one quote, "Lady, i can't put limbs back on a tree."

Get him a link to this thread, that's always fun. Remember McPeak?

 

[Trinity Honoria]

Get him a link to this thread, that's always fun. Remember McPeak?

i'm not certain he isn't a member here-- there are some members from my area, who's descriptions of hobbies line up with his... so he might be reading...

but i have always found the trait of arrogance combined with ignorance is a deadly combination... you can hold a mirror before someone like that, and he or she still cannot see reality.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Maybe the "wild west" or "mountain man" lynchings and taking justice into their own hands was not such a bad idea after all.

Maybe a little West Point style hazing ? For the tree hacker, that is.

(everybody avert their eyes for a few minutes)

 

[Urban Forester]

Mike and Urban, I don't know how many Carya illinoisensis are in MI and WI for you to see come out of a hack job. THey are most definitely salvageable; calling them a complete loss is an overreaction, possibly an underinformed one.

Where in my post do you see the pharse "complete loss" or anything close to it?