Any hope for tulip poplar?

[patm]

Poplar reprieve so more ideas to save it requested

Thanks to those of you who have replied already and in advance to any others.

Ernesto has given the tree a reprieve and/or will provide an answer to the question whether the tree can withstand a rainstorm. This gives us time to try to find an alternative to cutting it down. Normally, since we live in an historic area and it is larger than 6" in width it would not be allowed to be cut down.

To clarify some of the questions, both Elliott and myself would prefer to spend money saving it, even if more expensive than cutting it down.

The first tree company we had check it out, which had originally cabled it, performed various tests and said it was healthy and would last at least 6 months if left alone but something would eventually have to be done.

While it seemed connected to its sister, this was only at its base. I don't know how to describe it in arborist's terms, but there was room between them for a tiny elm (twig size) to be growing. I understand, perhaps incorrectly, that the amount of joint trunk the two trees shared is important. The second tree company did not refute the health of the tree.

The second company, the one that finally cancelled because of the storm, said it would not withstand a minor rain storm--today's tropical storm will answer that question.

It is presently slightly leaning toward the empty space. There is one other poplar which might be in its way, but mostly bamboo and wild vines. So it would probably not hurt other trees, etc., if cabled to fall in that direction. If the very top were trimmed about 20' it wouldn't hit our house. There is also nothing to the other side except bamboo. In other words, it needs to be kept from falling where the other tree fell.

We have a leaning maple in another part of the yard and we were told to trim its height/branch-weight and cable it to keep it from falling over. That's why I thought trimming the height on the poplar, plus cabling it, might be a way to save it. Also, when the sister tree fell over the roots, etc., pulled up dirt. I thought replacing that would be important, not something that would hurt it.

I mentioned the neighbor since she is the one pushing to have it cut down and the tree service company has worked for her in the past. The tree service has been pushing us all week, up until 6am today when it started raining, to cut it, even though yesterday's forecast said the tropical storm was headed straight for us and we tried to postpone the date.

I felt it didn't give us enough time to try to find other alternatives and the huge push made me feel like we were being railroaded by the one person who wants the tree cut down.

I did see one response mentioned a large tree cabled successfully. Is this done into the ground? One of you mentioned using the bamboo--do you mean the root system or the actual plants (I know bamboo is used for structural integrity in China/Hong Kong, but what characteristics would be necessary for cabling--or was this the joking person?) Would we need to put in some kind of cement brace instead of using the ground?

If we couldn't do 3-point cabling, would a 5-or-6 point pentagon- or star-shaped pattern work?

Again, pardon my lack of knowledge of concepts and terms.

So--please pretend that this is a beloved historic tree (which it is) growing on Capitol grounds (which it isn't)--is there any way to save it?

Thanks.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

When two trees grow close to each other, there is no room for good root structure between them, so you end up with two trees with a nice root flare each about 3/4 of the way around.
This works out for a couple reasons. First, the trees will be strong against forces in every direction except away from the bad side, and the other tree tends to block much of the wind from that direction. Second, the two trees can be cabled together quite easily and the support they then get from each other makes them as strong as a single tree with a good root plate.
Because the one tree has fallen, the cabling option is out.
The remaining tree is probably not any weaker than it was before it lost it's partner, other than it's now exposed to more wind loading from that one direction. If the tree falls, it will most likely be in the direction opposite the missing root flare.
What you are considering is called guying. Basically running support in three or more directions to a ground anchor or the base of other trees. This is a common practice in new plantings, or small leaning trees, but very rare in mature trees. There are no written standards for guying mature trees, that I know of.
It would be very libelous for a tree service to do, which would scare most off a project like this.
That said, if you don't mind looking at guy wires for the rest of time, utility companies have ground anchors and cable supplies that they use to hold up utility poles that could probably be used to hold up a tree. A 100 foot tree would take some real skilled engineering and understanding of tree dynamics to guy, but I don't think its impossible.
Just thinking out loud, you'd want the tree to be able to move in the wind, but only a certain amount, before the guys start taking the loads and prevent failure.

 

[treeseer]

There are no written standards for guying mature trees, that I know of.
It would be very libelous for a tree service to do, which would scare most off a project like this.

Mike is right except for this unfortunate gap in awareness. The Tree Support Systems BMPs were published in 2001. P 24-5 cover guying, which yes includes mature trees. Libelous my foot--Mike why don't you spend $6. and get a copy instead of telling folks that standard, common sense practices are "libelous", which means "printing lies"???:monkey:

The BMP suggest ground anchors 40' from the tree if the cables are set 40' high, etc.

The whole set of BMPs cost about as much as a good carabiner. Come on!

Pat, call 1-217-355-9411 and order a copy and guy your tree. It'll cost a lot less than the drooling goons want for killing it.

 

[arboralliance]

Help is near...

I did see one response mentioned a large tree cabled successfully. Is this done into the ground? One of you mentioned using the bamboo--do you mean the root system or the actual plants (I know bamboo is used for structural integrity in China/Hong Kong, but what characteristics would be necessary for cabling--or was this the joking person?) Would we need to put in some kind of cement brace instead of using the ground?

patm, I was the one whom mentioned the tree fall arrest system and suggested the multi point/strand cabling and it sounds like you have the idea well imagined in your description of 5 strands in star configuration...

I was thinking of attaching to the stems of the bamboo so as to take advantage of their root system/s...

Just think of any large antenna and the guy wires on it and the same principals will apply to this tree...

HOWEVER the guy wires on this tree will have to be relatively lose to allow a considerable amount of flex and sway, there are many, many alternatives and solutions to your tree issue...

Yes, you could consider taking attachments from multiple clumps of bamboo similar to a parachute set up, keeping in mind the tree root system it self is similarly anchored in place with its fibrous root hairs assisting in locking the large root ball in place...

Look to and copy nature... (Has anyone suggested grafting back onto the othersides root system?)

Sounds like your neighbor needs to be firmly and lovingly reassured of the importance of trees also, perhaps a trip to a treeless planet might cure them of their need to fear your trees... (This treeless planet trip might be a simple case of stepping forward in time a little...)

I am happy to come over and assist with this tree, let me know and we can arrange something...

You have clearly indicated you want to spend the money, well, get someone in there who really cares, for crikey sake we have the knowledge and equipment in this day and age to do just about anything with trees...

Has anyone suggested Picus Sonic Tomograph for the trunk or the root system?

The flowers must be amazing, I had a beauty in Melbourne, Liriodendron tulipifera, they have a tulip tree up here in Queensland but it is considered Class 3 weed and is known as Spathodea campanulata or African Tulip Tree...Very different...

 

[Ekka]

The tree service has been pushing us all week, up until 6am today when it started raining, to cut it, even though yesterday's forecast said the tropical storm was headed straight for us and we tried to postpone the date.

I felt it didn't give us enough time to try to find other alternatives and the huge push made me feel like we were being railroaded by the one person who wants the tree cut down.

Who's tree is it and who's running the show?

 

[Ekka]

Has anyone suggested Picus Sonic Tomograph for the trunk or the root system?

What for, wasting more money?

This is usually done following a negative VTA, then it's not accurate and drilled with a RESI anyway, and makes no difference to what is there.

So then you know what you already know and intelligently assumed worse case scenario and prescribe what would have been done anyway.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike is right except for this unfortunate gap in awareness. The Tree Support Systems BMPs were published in 2001. P 24-5 cover guying, which yes includes mature trees. Libelous my foot--Mike why don't you spend $6. and get a copy instead of telling folks that standard, common sense practices are "libelous", which means "printing lies"???:monkey:

The BMP suggest ground anchors 40' from the tree if the cables are set 40' high, etc.

The whole set of BMPs cost about as much as a good carabiner. Come on!

Pat, call 1-217-355-9411 and order a copy and guy your tree. It'll cost a lot less than the drooling goons want for killing it.

Thanks, I ordered the BMP, and hopefully it will bring me up to speed on the subject.

I didn't mean libelous, that was a grammar error. I was thinking liableness but it didn't seem to fit, so I hit spell check and I thought libelous was the word I was looking for. Oh well, I never claimed to be a good writer. I remember back in college, English 101. It was the worst 12 semesters of my life.
But I do think there are certain liabilities, legal, and ethical, to be carefully considered with undertaking a job like this. I guess that was my point.

What does a typical guying configuration look like for a 100' tall tree?
I assume it would be at least 3 cables that somehow allowed the tree to continue to sway, perhaps a dynamic system like Cobra? Or do they recommend a steel system that holds the tree tight like a radio tower?
I also wonder about the anchors. Do they use auger in types like the power company uses, or big blocks of concrete buried in the soil?
I would also assume the cables are mounted to the tree at about 2/3s the tree height, 65 feet or so, in this case, with separate through bolts for each cable?

 

[treeseer]

Mike, sorry to be rude. the BMP says,

"consult with an engineer to aid in anchor design"

I've installed exactly one ground anchor in concrete in my life. After 8 years it's still holding, thanks to overdesigning the strength and dumb luck. for a tree of this size and visibilty, definitely get an engineer on the job. pat, you should be able to sell the BMP to the cabling arborist. Hopefully between the two of them it can get done right.

Jarrah why do you want a lot of sway in this thing? It weighs a bit more than an antenna you know...

re the tomograph I think it'd be handy here. btw there was a prof from melbourne at the last isa conference who talked about using it in comparison to the resistograph. I did not find her research terribly illuminating. can't remember the name.

pat, I believe you when you say that there isn't rot in this trunk. Often 2-trunked trees have separate cores, and the failure could have been due to a bad union and nmot decay. Still you should check very well before doing this job so you know what you are dealing with.

 

[arboralliance]

What the...

Jarrah why do you want a lot of sway in this thing?

For the size of the tree allot of sway (or “natural movement”) will be "x" through a known axis of "y" therefore to maintain the tree with as much natural integrity AND to promote natural strength build up of the tree system (structural integrity) I am postulating maximum sway allowable with a guyed system SO both the tree is allowed to respond to the recent events (strengthen) and attempt to "right" itself and if there is going to be any natural lean or failure it can be observed in both the surrounds (ground plate movement etc) and tree (trunk, sway, limb movement etc) and in the movement of "x" sway through "y" axis and therefore in the relative (realistic) slack of the guying apparatus...

An option might be to thread an extensive bungee system into this guying system so a taught attachment can be simulated allowing normal natural sway through the bungee system...

The trees I inspect cabling on and set fall arrest systems for invariably take up slack in the system fairly rapidly (1-5 years) considering the life expectancy and age of the trees as they are moving and disintegrating as such and therefore an fully adjustable and preferably dynamic system should be appropriated IMHO....

Either that or a one or two high rated cable/s very loosely slung through the tree and ground anchored to arrest and direct fall...

The options are endless...

patm if you fly me over and pay for the required gear I'll do it for the experience...All up It could cost you about half what you've agreed to pay to have it removed...

And an ancient Chinese proverb would come into play...

Trees are incredibly evolved entities and can adapt very well to the stressors of both man and mother nature, lets not strap this "Kong" to the deck just yet...

Originally Posted by arboralliance
Has anyone suggested Picus Sonic Tomograph for the trunk or the root system?

Ekka's response:
What for, wasting more money?

This is usually done following a negative VTA, then it's not accurate and drilled with a RESI anyway, and makes no difference to what is there.

So then you know what you already know and intelligently assumed worse case scenario and prescribe what would have been done anyway.

A 24 year old with only 3 years TOTAL experience in the industry brought the Picus Sonic Tomograph device up with me yesterday... He was utterly dismayed by attitudes towards this device seemingly so prevalent here in Queensland...

My area of expertise in Engineering was Vibration Analysis and Machine Condition Monitoring, it was and still is considered "witch doctoring" in the respective multi trillion dollar manufacturing industry I was employed YET I could record and create a vibrational analysis history of any reciprocating machine (or any machine with a rotating motion or using a bearing effect in a radial plane) and accurately predict the life of the machine OR when it was going to fail or begin to fail or analyze why issues existed with machines, SAVING the global manufacturing corporation I worked for many hundreds of thousands of dollars every time I prevented shut down through preventative maintenance scheduling based on my "witch doctoring"...

Key phrases/words; preventative maintenance, create a vibrational analysis history, accurately predict, witch doctoring, SAVING hundreds of thousands of dollars...

There are so, so many areas of diagnosis methodology we don’t but could use in our industry and all because it seems a refusal to see the evolution of prescriptive remediation through advancement of technology exists based on our natural fear of the unknown and our hypo-media motivated, limiting beliefs based on our seemingly dire demographic/s...

Ekka "wasting more money" assumes money has already been wasted...

People spend tens of millions of dollars on single antiquated paintings and other works of art, if these same people only knew what we could do (or were prepared to do) with their trees what do you think they would be willing and able to spend on them?

Its us as Arborists who limit the amounts spent on and in our industry...

In some peoples eyes money is not a limiting factor, surely we are the benchmark for encouraging and justifying this “money shouldn’t matter” attitude/investment in relation to our area of expertise; that being based on one of the only means by which we survive on this planet; through the air expired by trees...

In some industries a Picus Sonic Tomograph would be considered "old technology"...

16 years ago I was using Thermal imaging cameras for industrial maintenance applications and believe this technology could be used extensively in our industry...

In the case of this Tulip tree a VTA by one human could and would miss many points and issues...

Ekka you suggest invasive and destructive testing OVER non invasive methods, WHY?

What would you see using VTA methodology in the root system of this tree?

(The diagram attached is a very quick draft of one idea or thought not advice or definitive.)

 

[treeseer]

People spend tens of millions of dollars on single antiquated paintings and other works of art, if these same people only knew what we could do (or were prepared to do) with their trees what do you think they would be willing and able to spend on them?

Its us as Arborists who limit the amounts spent on and in our industry...

Excellent point. A common refain here at AS is anguish over taking people's money to keep their trees alive, when that is what the owner wants. Our trade is still hamstrung by vestiges of its forestry heritage. If all these climbers and cutters diversify their services by selling more arboriculture, tree owners will see more value in what we can do.

Right now we are overtaken by cheap labor that can climb and cut. Gotta carve a tree care niche above them, or their undercutting will shrink arborist profits down to nothing.

 

[Ekka]

Regarding the scenario at hand, most (90%) of blowover failures occur with a root mass within 2.5m of the tree, so you can swing a 2.5m radius around the tree (Mattheck & Breloer, The Body language of Trees 1998) and use Guy's tile probe to see where the roots are and if they're OK. If you are not satisfied with that then an air knife would be good to blow away soil to see the root system or carefully excavate with a hand trowel especially around the flare.

Also, with an assumed 50% of tree mass removed from the root plate did you know that there is an increased liklihood of blowover as there is now less friction on the bonding soil particles. Large trees rely more on their weight as anchorage, but half of that is gone.

A VTA inspection and tap test will reveal soil upheaval/cracks, root map, decay.

However, according to posts about guying that itself will not improve anchorage and will serve predominantly as fall protection.

The scenario is, regardless of the trees condition saving is paramount so why bother going further down the investigative track when guying a fall protection system to prevent targets being hit in the event of failure is already prescribed? It simply doesn't matter about roots, decay, soil etc coz worst case scenario has been assumed and catered for.

Along with that diagnosis I would also say it would be prudent to attend to the vigor of the tree as a good hort person should and also attend to the soil in the area and try to promote good structure and a spreading root system to lock a wider anchorage of soil to the roots.

The critical aspect for guying is the distance the anchor point is from the trunk. We all know that 45degress is the magic number but I dont think the yard has 70' of room. Also you would only have to guy opposite of targets. If the house was the only considerable target then a 2 guy wire system would suffice.

One of the hazards of a loose system is the slapping effect when the tree takes up the slack, plenty of failures occur above the attachment point.

Personally, knowing the 45 degree angle is the magic number I would simply measure out the distance I have in the yard ... for this example say 50' then guy the tree at 50' high opposite to the target. If the tree were to upheave in the direction of the house it would be stopped. I think, without being a rocket scientist this is a straight forward job with dynamic rope/cable to two suitable ground anchor points.

The ground anchor points could simply be hardwood treated fence posts dug in a good 1500mm deep at a 30 degrees offset to target protruding from the ground.

Do you know what the shear force is on a 6x6 piece of hardwood?

---------------------------

With regard to your comments about Queenslanders attitudes toward picus etc ...

Perhaps you need to see more comparisons of cut trees to decay cavities after the picus was used ... it is not accurate.

I have attended seminar after seminar and seen the same over and over. So it's not that us Queenslanders are naive or not progressing but simply dont buy into gadgets that are bells and whistles.

Also we dont have a plethora of decaying trees around here, even poor specimens have pronounced VTA symptoms so quantification of the decay is what's required which can be done quickly and effectively without $50K gadgets to impress customers.

I was talking to an avocado guy about injecting them, did you know that most 1/4" injection holes are sealed over within a month? Things happen relatively quick here. I have purposefully ring barked a Eucalyptus tereticornis (Forest Red Gum) with a 2" gap and seen it grow over that gap and live in less than 6 months. This is not Victoria and we have trees that are different. We have dry winters and humid summers, in winter we pretty much sit above 21C all the time.

Also you may need to see this and read it for yourself. Both are links to PDF files around 1mb in size.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fpl_gtr159.pdf#search="effects of drilling trees with resi"

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fpl_gtr162.pdf#search="effects of drilling trees with resi"

This is good reading too with pics

Pages 100 to 106 of this publication (18.5mb pdf) cover detection devices and limitations.

And here's an interesting publication on the effects of drilling decayed trees

All very interesting reading but summed up like this ....

At the moment, residual wall thickness and wood quality can only be determined with highest reliability using drilling techniques. This means that a tree controller has to drill in the case of strong suspicion so as to verify the hazard caused by the tree or he has to avert possible danger for man and fell the suspected tree.

In human medicine similar things are done, called biopsies.

 

[infomet]

Poplar

Looks awful.
Poplar makes great siding, bookshelves, etc.
Wilson

 

[MrRecurve]

Nobody else thinks that base looks decayed? What are all the white patches? Looks very much like hyphae infested decayed wood to me. Where there any fruiting bodies evident? Was there a large amount of organic matter at gathered around the base? ie grass clippings or raked leaves?

 

[treeseer]

Nobody else thinks that base looks decayed? What are all the white patches? Looks very much like hyphae infested decayed wood to me.

yes the picture looked like the remaining stem was decayed. Measuring that decay is Job 1 but no one seems to have done that yet.

The white patches I see are typical on Liriodendon, a surface bark characteristic unrelated to structure. Where do you see hyphae?

 

[MrRecurve]

I cant see it specifically, but that sort of colouration is usually indicative of decay from what Ive seen, and you can sometimes see the hyphae remaining in the decay.

 

[Ekka]

I thought it was just bits of hairy fine roots from the fallen half.

Just tap test and poke around.

 

[arboralliance]

Very nice post Ekka...

Regarding the scenario at hand, most (90%) of blowover failures occur with a root mass within 2.5m of the tree, so you can swing a 2.5m radius around the tree (Mattheck & Breloer, The Body language of Trees 1998) and use Guy's tile probe to see where the roots are and if they're OK. Guys probe will do both I’d like to see that, beats digging down a metre and inspecting the potential fungal/decay…If you are not satisfied with that then an air knife would be good to blow away soil to see the root system or carefully excavate with a hand trowel especially around the flare.

Good to see there are records of where the root system fails BUT this is not indicating the extent of the root system or roots deep or not obvious to the eye; on a tree of this size air knife would be a big and tedious undertaking if at all completely possible (also refer to the next post on the effect of air spade as a destructive device)…

Also, with an assumed 50% of tree mass removed from the root plate did you know that there is an increased liklihood of blowover as there is now less friction on the bonding soil particles. Large trees rely more on their weight as anchorage, but half of that is gone.

Yep, the half that wanted to :censored: off has and now the remaining lady can get on with her life (or gender vice-versa)…

A VTA inspection and tap test will reveal soil upheaval/cracks, root map, decay.

Give a quote and estimate of time to do it on this 100 footer for the whole thing… NOW if we developed a tool that could do it by looking into the tree sonically, hhmm, that would be nice…

However, according to posts about guying that itself will not improve anchorage and will serve predominantly as fall protection.

Directly guying CAN improve anchorage but if guying is instituted soley for this purpose the trees natural tendancy to respond will not be permitted, the system that has been suggested allows for both (or all three) fall arrest, anchorage and allowing natural responses or “reaction wood” as we seem to label it…

The scenario is, regardless of the trees condition saving is paramount so why bother going further down the investigative track when guying a fall protection system to prevent targets being hit in the event of failure is already prescribed? It simply doesn't matter about roots, decay, soil etc coz worst case scenario has been assumed and catered for.

ASSUMING the root system and other means for the trees survival are apparent and functional otherwise , yes, there would be no point managing the tree…

Along with that diagnosis I would also say it would be prudent to attend to the vigor of the tree as a good hort person should and also attend to the soil in the area and try to promote good structure and a spreading root system to lock a wider anchorage of soil to the roots.

Guy has a brilliant article I shall attach which addresses this concern in realtion to preventing instigation of fungi detrimantal to the tree, I would be looking at managing the soil condition based on an assesment of the soil condition relative to its bio-mass or lack there of and active particles condusive to a balanced and therefore simulating the most natural soil profile possible…

The critical aspect for guying is the distance the anchor point is from the trunk. We all know that 45degress is the magic number but I dont think the yard has 70' of room. Also you would only have to guy opposite of targets. If the house was the only considerable target then a 2 guy wire system would suffice.

One of the hazards of a loose system is the slapping effect when the tree takes up the slack, plenty of failures occur above the attachment point.

Personally, knowing the 45 degree angle is the magic number I would simply measure out the distance I have in the yard ... for this example say 50' then guy the tree at 50' high opposite to the target. If the tree were to upheave in the direction of the house it would be stopped. I think, without being a rocket scientist this is a straight forward job with dynamic rope/cable to two suitable ground anchor points.

Agree on both points. My diagram was an example only based on preventing the seeming excitement around “lathing” this lady into veneer…

The ground anchor points could simply be hardwood treated fence posts dug in a good 1500mm deep at a 30 degrees offset to target protruding from the ground.

Do you know what the shear force is on a 6x6 piece of hardwood?

Not my choice of favor at all, lost me on this one...

---------------------------

 

[arboralliance]

cont'...

With regard to your comments about Queenslanders attitudes toward picus etc ...

My referring to someone else’s concerns you mean…

Perhaps you need to see more comparisons of cut trees to decay cavities after the picus was used ... it is not accurate.

Neither are any technologies when they are first realised as technology and yet accepted as developing and therefore needing to be advanced by the industry it was conceived for… Whose fault/responsibility is it that this equipment isn’t accurate I can hear all the typical Aussie attitudes we the land of the tall poppy slayings…

I have attended seminar after seminar and seen the same over and over. So it's not that us Queenslanders are naive or not progressing but simply don’t buy into gadgets that are bells and whistles.

I agree, on both points. We have a two edged sword in our tall poppy slaying syndrome as we swim peacefully in the pacific, the first can be seen in my comments just above and the other side being; we can see through the bells and whistles and BS like no other nation yet are not easily read by other nations because of our uniqueness.. Queensland is NOT, as I see it, recognized as being naive it is just seen to be in a different understanding of vegetation in that most other nations under the climatic rule of 4 seasons and or true dormancy in winter are not as blessed in their ability to discard vegetation at will as the Queenslanders seem to be allowed/permit themselves to do…Is this lacking progression, well I never raised either naiveté nor lack of progression so I guess you answer your own argument in raising these issues… (The QAA is the largest Arb’ society in Aus’ as I know it…)

Also we dont have a plethora of decaying trees around here, even poor specimens have pronounced VTA symptoms so quantification of the decay is what's required which can be done quickly and effectively without $50K gadgets to impress customers.

Yeh, but men will spend $100 000 (or even 3 x that!) on a chipper without even thinking twice, funny that…

I was talking to an avocado guy about injecting them, did you know that most 1/4" injection holes are sealed over within a month? Things happen relatively quick here. I have purposefully ring barked a Eucalyptus tereticornis (Forest Red Gum) with a 2" gap and seen it grow over that gap and live in less than 6 months. This is not Victoria and we have trees that are different. We have dry winters and humid summers, in winter we pretty much sit above 21C all the time.

I have seen the same in concreted in street trees (ring barked) in Melbourne city…I agree and concur as stated in my previous address of your comments…More detail would need to be provided to debate any point you may be trying to make here. Intensive farming of Avocados is not the norm found in urban or amenity environs…Depending on the levels of symplast in the E. tereticornis would determine partly its capacity to re-institute wall one…

Also you may need to see this and read it for yourself. Both are links to PDF files around 1mb in size.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...with resi"

PAGE 4 “One drawback is that multiple, time-consuming drilling would be required to map the area and extent of the decay in the other plane. Another possible drawback is the potential to spread the decay to sound areas within a timber or to sound timbers by multiple use of a contaminated drill bit. Routine cleaning of drill bits, or replacement with a new one, would greatly reduce this potential drawback.
It is crucial to use this or any nondestructive testing tool or device as part of a comprehensive condition assessment. Such an assessment should incorporate an in-depth visual inspection, knowledge of prior use of the structure, and a working knowledge of fundamental engineering properties of structural wood products. This technique, when used in concert with visual and ultrasound techniques, would provide a very accurate description of the condition of timbers”
WHICH TOOL THEN IS THE WASTE OF MONEY/TIME?

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...with resi"

“RECOMMENDATIONS
With a better understanding of the capability and limitations of three NDE methods, future studies should focus on improving the measurement quality and increasing the accuracy of decay detection for the multi path stress-wave tomography method. An in-depth investigation of velocity distribution patterns in intact and decayed log cross sections for different species should be conducted, and appropriate reference velocities should be determined and used to replace the default values in the current image projection program.”

I refer back to the key word’s/phrases in my previous post's… and add,WHOSE JOB IS THIS THEN IF NOT OUR’S?

This is good reading too with pics

Pages 100 to 106 of this publication (18.5mb pdf) cover detection devices and limitations.

And here's an interesting publication on the effects of drilling decayed trees.

Didn’t link to anything?

All very interesting reading but summed up like this ....

At the moment, residual wall thickness and wood quality can only be determined with highest reliability using drilling techniques. This means that a tree controller has to drill in the case of strong suspicion so as to verify the hazard caused by the tree or he has to avert possible danger for man and fell the suspected tree.

Not sure where this is stated or where you have quoted this from but it seems to contradict what you have said previously and what is said in the first link you’ve provided so I am not sure what point you are making but certainly the debate is unique in its cover of the spectrum of invasive and non invasive analysis of trees… Once again the young Arborist I have regular discussions with pointed out that an air spade would strip the roots and fibrous root hairs of all or any micoryzhae and I agree as it is an invasive and destructive tool in its own right…

In human medicine similar things are done, called biopsies.

Yup, Doctors (some not all) love to cut people open, their economic model is based on this principal not on prevention…Just as is our hero Shigo’s, but darn anyone to blazes who might challenge the lofty exalted heroes in this or any industry…


As you know re my email to you a week or so ago, i have allot of respect for you and what you do Eric even still after not recieving a response to my email...I may however become somewhat of an nemesis perhaps...

As you may or may not know Eric I come from an Old growth logging and tree lopping back ground (despised by all or most people in this country) and have only “jibed” under sail and become vocal because of guilt through education (self in my case) as I see will be the case for many and is for many before me; all the big names in Australian Arboriculture can say the same if they can be that honest and the swing to the left or conservation will centre itself all in good time…

We need to step beyond the shadow of the Shigo’s and Burnley Colleges’ and the awe of the Marist and the ISA and exercise our own minds in our own spectrums and challenge the theories that sit in rest on their laurels as that is all they are (OUR daily practices exercise all these theory in practicality, the written words in a book are only that, develop your own theory and understanding expanding on all the above not submitting to and or bagging it! We worship words on paper discounting our worth, we are programmed to achieve this and wonder at how others achieve success...) and in turn develop ever smarter and efficient technologies and practices…

Eric you are living proof of this with the education you bring to thousands of young (and old) Arborists all over the world…30 years ago you would have laughed at the offer of technology to record your experiments and refine your skills and service using the humble film recorder, now you are a God of the medium and could be of Tomography if you put half as much effort into developing the science as you do into recording the perpetual removal of trees…

 

[Ekka]

Pages 100 to 106 of this publication (18.5mb pdf) cover detection devices and limitations.

And here's an interesting publication on the effects of drilling decayed trees

I've checked the links, they are good to go, you have to click on the underlined words "this" and "here's" though.

 

[Ekka]

OK Jarrah, I found your email and sent it ... I did do it but stuffed up, you'll see how when you get it.

Tall poppy's, where, I got a saw. lol

What we have to do is get the facts, quantify them. And at this given point of time the tools available for it are limited, however the most accurate is drilling. The documentation in those links talks about how bad (or not)it is etc.

Tomorrow I'm out quoting all day, hence the late night tonight, if I have time I'll try to drop in on some of my secret jobs.

I'll say this carefully and once only.

I have for some time been experimenting and trying stuff out with regards to trees and treatments. You'll rarely if ever see me post on this stuff.

Why? Coz I'm taking it to the grave. It's the last bastion of me carving a niche away from the saw wielding hacks and I aint sharing it, especially on a public forum.

You know how customers have this really bad way of showing other companies your quotes to get a cheaper price? Well, I'm worried about that too, telling them exactly what I'm gonna do, how, what the chemicals (if any) are and what ratios, where etc ... my secret. And I dont want to educate my competitors.

This is not downtown LA where you can pick up any injection or treatment in a can with instructions and earn a buck.

I figured if Coke and KFC didn't have to divulge theirs to a court neither will I. The most I have ever said about it is that post about a mango tree, and that was a slip in hindsite coz normally I keep my trap shut 100%.

Slowly I'm acquiring the goods, the tools and techniques. I have to buy everything cash too so it takes time. In between I also have to live and earn ... so I do my job.

The right clients refer me on to other clients etc, slowly the word spreads. There's competition, some of which is frankly derogatory in their conduct. Some big noting well known players slam new guys in this area and charge like wounded bulls. I've seen the reports and treatments and what has been done for $600 in 45 mins ... yet these guys are iconic. (were)

Also, when report writing you need facts. You can write way out there on your theories, possibilities and of course experience but it better be validated experience. Or you can choose to write from an industries standard point of view. Quoting and citing books/text etc. I choose that method because if you want to shoot me down in a court room you'll have to shoot down Shigo, Mattheck, Malaney & Clark, Gilman etc ... the style is you get the facts and compare them to standards and provide a recommendation against that. Holds more weight, and as I found out will shoot down some of your adversaries.

So, dont think no vids on TLC means ekka doesn't do it, just means he doesn't show it. I do this work on my own too, I find it peaceful and enjoyable, and no pressure.

We dont have regs, the last thing i need is more hacks spraying trees, shoving injectors into trunks and blowing them full of air thinking it's a hot air balloon.

Time to step up a notch, but remember, the average Joe customer and tree cutter here is way behind times, they have yet to recognize trees are valuable and require care.

Hope that helps.