Any hope for tulip poplar?

[treeseer]

Pam and Elliott,

I hope you get a local arborist onsite to sort this out for you. The one I sent you is good; there is also The Care of Trees and Bartlett. (Or fly Jarrah over, which would be --I could have him down for tea) If the third cable is not possible due to neighbor issues that may be a dealbreaker as treeCo points out. I do not agree with dynamic vs. static--not much reaction wood growth in an old tree like that imo. I'm no expert on this engineering task, but I see too many problems with too much movement.

Where is your original cabling arborist's stance?

Jarrah among the many points in your soapbox rant (most of which I agree with), the one about not being in awe of Shigo et al's writings is the key one for me. many times over he said "don't believe me blindly--see for yourself', and in ISA pubs there are many more "should"s than "shall"s. It's sad to see able minds latch onto this Knowledge (based on Cliff's Notes readings of the literature) so passionately they throw stones at those who take it as guidelines instead of Rules, and dare to work outside that box.

re decay detection, If there is a hole in the trunk or root collar, you can gain information about that cavity by probing with a tool such as a screwdriver or a tile probe, a long, narrow fiberglass rod with a “T” handle. A ruler or yardstick will give you some idea how extensive the cavity is. If the trunk sounds very hollow but there is no soft spot or opening to probe and measure, then more advanced equipment may be used to determine how much sound wood is in the stem. Drilling and coring can measure the sound wood in one small area, so many holes must be made to get a picture of the whole tree. Drilling and coring invade healthy tissue, potentially spreading decay and decreasing stability. Practicing on fallen trees can provide valuable experience in the use of these methods.
Devices using radar and sound waves are not as invasive, but they cost a lot more. Trunks can also be tested by pulling on the tree, using the Statics Integrated Method. All of these methods and devices require experience to interpret the results well enough to communicate the risk to the tree owner. Deciding how closely to inspect a tree is always a professional judgment, different for each assignment and each tree. Cavities over two-thirds of the diameter are sometimes considered “hazardous” and a reason for removal, but with close monitoring and care, trees with cavities over 80% of the diameter have been managed for many years. (This was NOT written about this tuliptree, but in general)

 

[Ekka]

Treeseer

I have found that the average failure rate on hollowed Eucalyptus tereticornis is between 17% and 22%, however they have not been reduced or pruned in any way other than nature. These trees had pretty clear VTA symptoms and management of them sooner they wouldn't have failed.

If I see a fallen tree or big branch I pull over and "suss" it out. In my ute I always have enough gear to test all the numbers .... and you start to get averages afer a while.

The hardest one to pic is uprooting coz that has many variable, however a core sample of the soil might help. The core will also have roots in it so you'll know your layer and force distribution.

Simple core samplers can be made from pipe ... there you go another secret. Push the core out of the pipe with ya rake, look for root density, depth etc, see what the soil layers are.

Many times here we have a shallow topsoil with either a heavy clay or sandstone/limestone shale rock. Deep root penetration is rare, at a metre deep you'd find jack.

When I see windthown trees I like to dig and check out the profile, where the root plate slid and why ....

So on that job I'd be surprised of this wasn't done especially if artificial anchors have to placed in the soil.

Personally, I dont like this tree, there's lots I dont like about it. If however a client was absolutely adamant it had to stay you can only do your best .... but maybe in real life it looks worse and many arbo's would walk.

I have uninvasivly assessed many street trees and sent the local authority my findings .... to date, most have been removed after their assessment. Some have been significant trees in parks and would require a lot more than a gardener to tick off on it's removal. I know that in one case they used picus, then resistograph, then felled it, 80% rotten. Dont even get a friggin thanx for it. And all I used was a hammer.... $15 from ya hardware store.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What for, wasting more money?

This is usually done following a negative VTA, then it's not accurate and drilled with a RESI anyway, and makes no difference to what is there.

So then you know what you already know and intelligently assumed worse case scenario and prescribe what would have been done anyway.

What is VTA?
It's a good practice when using acronyms to write it out fully at least the first time, especially if they are not standard acronyms, like RESI, which I assume to mean Resistograph, but on a homeowner helper forum what are the odds the homeowner knows that?

 

[treeseer]

What is VTA?

Visual Tree Assessment, common in arb lit since Matthecks' Body Language book, out for 12 years now.

"Many times here we have a shallow topsoil with either a heavy clay or sandstone/limestone shale rock. Deep root penetration is rare, at a metre deep you'd find jack.'

Ekka same here. A red oak failed in a puff from Ernesto, heavy root damage from grading on two sides. No roots thicker than a pencil two feet .6m down.

I too believe in the power of the mallet; read Mike Ellison's Quantitative Tree Risk Analysis, he's in the same camp. The other tools have their uses but all tools need experienced interpretation.

 

[patm]

thanks and please add any other ideas

First, thanks everyone for your advice. It is interesting to know that some of the same conservation and work issues are taking place in Australia as well as here. In our case it would be helpful if there were a specialized category of "tree saver" Master Arborists, experts one could trust to give all available options to a situation. The problems several of you mentioned regarding untrained individuals undercutting your expertise and business is harmful on the homeowner's side, also, because often there is little time to find the right specialist for a situation. If there are such Master Arborists, please let us know how to find them. Word of mouth isn't working.

The poplar made it through the tropical storm/depression. We supposedly got 5" of rain, sustained winds of 25mph, with gusts up to 50mph. I know past does not equal present or future performance, but one company's assessment that she wouldn't make it through a small rain storm was incorrect. Thus, I am hopeful we can save her.

I gather that the general consensus is to have additional arborist(s) come out and decide on the basic health of the tree and that if she is basically sound, guying can be done. I know tapping was done, as well as other non-intrusive tests, but nothing using scanners, etc. Again, we were told the tree was healthy, but another opinion would be good. (The fibers in the picture looked and felt like tiny roots to me; I don't know how to assess the other disease issues one of you brought up but it was good to know part of it was usual for a tulip poplar. We will have your comments ready to ask about.)

If healthy, an engineer and/or specialist arborist would be needed to calculate tension and placement of the guy wires, and whether the bamboo root system, the ground, and/or installed cement blocks would be necessary to hold the wiring in place. In case the tree did fall, this guying would also have to account for where the tree might break, from the roots on up.

Guying could be done with as few as 2 up to multiple numbers of wires to ensure stability with enough "give" to allow for wind and other natural tree movements. A kind of webbing pattern might be most effective. While there may be a problem with not being able to place wiring in the north direction, there are probably ways to overcome this.

In attempting to answer some of your other questions, I'll try to better describe the poplar tree placement in terms of the yard and other dwellings.

Our property is almost an acre, roughly square. The poplar is just about in the center of the north property line (fenced)--about 10' from the property line, so there is very little room for anything in the north direction which is the direction her "sister" fell. There is an unoccupied house in that direction (the "neighbor").

We do have a lot of room in all other directions for wiring, etc.

The poplar would need to be "guided" to fall--if it did fall--in a southwest direction, opposite from where its sister fell. This area has bamboo, small indigenous shrubs, and vines for about 60-80' (our's plus another neighbor's not involved with this since it is designated a "no-build" area at present), then trees of varying ages and more underbrush which continues for about another acre. If I understood one of the responses correctly, this poplar should fall opposite to the direction her sister fell? If I understood correctly, this is the area she would "naturally" (but no guarantee) fall in.

Directly west is another poplar which could be knocked over; directly south is our house (about 80' away)--the area between the poplar and the house is filled with dense bamboo.

East is mostly dense bamboo but there is a large tree about 40' away to the northeast (next to the property line fence mentioned above).

Visually, the guy wires would be seen until the bamboo grew up around them, so this is not a problem (especially compared with the big hole in the sky/horizon if we lose the tree). This part of the yard has been kept as a natural habitat, so there isn't a concern with people playing there and we could mark them along the paths if they might be dangerous.

We hope to add some additional pictures, etc., on Tuesday to this Forum.

Treeseer, I assume you sent additional information which I'll look for. I don't know all the tree companies Elliott contacted, but we will try any you suggest.

For those of you who celebrate Labor Day the first Monday of September, and for all who took time out of your weekend to help us out, thanks again. It is a relief to know that if the poplar is basically healthy there are possible ways to save her. Thanks for the offer to come from Australia, but these days no one really wants to fly into the DC area unless they have to.

This question is totally off the subject, but many of you seem to know each other. Do you have international arborist meetings and get together to discuss proper equipment, etc.? Or is it done mostly with national/regional meetings and then over the web? I didn't realize there was a huge discussion in your field going on about how to properly diagnose tree health--very informative.

 

[treeseer]

I know tapping was done, as well as other non-intrusive tests, but nothing using scanners, etc. Again, we were told the tree was healthy, but another opinion would be good. p

what were the data--how big the cavity? Yes I'd get a second opinion before any expensive and risky undertaking.

] whether the bamboo root system, the ground, and/or installed cement blocks would be necessary to hold the wiring in place.

An engineer may recommend iron and concrete.

there may be a problem with not being able to place wiring in the north direction, there are probably ways to overcome this.

Who can think of one based on scientific authority?

We hope to add some additional pictures, etc., on Tuesday to this Forum.

Can you scan a plat map, with measurements to structures and other targets? What is the exact height of the tree?

I didn't realize there was a huge discussion in your field going on about how to properly diagnose tree health--very informative.

Check www.isa-arbor.com and the link below.

Use binoculars to check the forks for branch bark ridges (good) and included bark (bad). Check the branches for holes, bulges, irregular bark growth, and cracks. Branches on “edge” trees that develop heavy ends can also develop cracks on the upper side. These branches often require reduction pruning to lower the risk of failure. A Certified Tree Worker or another qualified climber with a digital camera can do an aerial inspection, providing essential information that cannot be gained from the ground.

 

[elliottk]

Tulip poplar again

Sorry for the delay in responding regarding damage/rot, but this is what I have at this time:

1. The pictures are of the same tree; coloration is different due to color shift caused by use of a different camera.

2. Overall extended length of the tape measure shown is about 70", for that that's worth.

3. Probing the areas of the interior, only a couple of areas of coloration proved to be relatively "soft". Probing with a knife as shown, it was only possible to insert about 1/2" in the worst-case area. Everywhere else was ~1/4" insertion depth.

Obviously we need a third/fourth look by a pro to answer these questions properly. Thanks for all the input and help.

 

[elliottk]

Tulip poplar again

One more photo ...

 

[treeseer]

Not bad.

Please don't stick the knife in there anymore. We recommended "probing with a tool such as a screwdriver", nothing sharper.

I'm hearing about design costs in the $1000's, done by a qualified engineer. Good Luck.

 

[Ekka]

Please don't stick the knife in there anymore.

Tch tch tch, now you done it, Treeseer's not happy with that stabbing, use a drill, it's much more effective.

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[elliottk]

Tulip poplar

Sorry ... the knife is what I had handy out in the field. But the probing was limited and gentle. Stuck in in a bit for the photo to illustrate scale and insertion depth. I stand corrected .......

Thanks for the help.

 

[Ekka]

Crikey! Even got an appology Treeseer. You're a tough act to follow that's for sure. :biggrinbounce2:

 

[Pelorus]

The tree...what happened to the tree?

 

[Buckshot00]

8 year old thread. lol

 

[Pelorus]

Yeah, but it is like the final five minutes of Inglourious Basterds getting cut off, and you lie awake at night wondering if Mr. Pitt & Co got strangled.
These guys who start these kinda threads and don't include an epilogue should be taken behind the barn and shot.