Are these trees dying?

[wysiwyg]

We are in a severe drought now and the effects appear to be showing up in some more of our mature trees. Below are pictures of what I believe are a red maple and green ash, about 15-20 years old each. A week ago these trees were lush and green, but have quickly degraded to what is shown. Instead of the leaves turning color, falling off the tree, then turning brown and shrivelling up as they normally would in mid to late October, they are currently going quickly from green, to yellow, to brown and dried up within a few days while remaining on the tree. Does this indicate the trees are dying or is this a normal protective drought response?

 

[DadF]

What do the root systems/root flares look like? Can you send pics of the bases of the trees. I'd almost bet that would be the primary culprit-they have been planted too deep and look like telephone poles stuck in the ground. Unfortunately we had a rash of "too deep" plantings here on campus 15-20 years ago and we are finding all too often that the root systems have girdled the stems. Sometimes the tree just slowly declines but in times of stress they will go fairly quickly, sometimes in less than a week-green to brown.

 

[DadF]

Also, comparatively speaking those are not mature trees but still very young trees.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

What are other similar trees within a mile or so doing - the same basic thing?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

In continued drought, leaves often drop prematurely, or remain attached to the tree even though brown. Often times, drought stress may not kill a tree outright, but set it up for more serious secondary insect and disease infestations in following years.

 

[wysiwyg]

Here is a picture of the base of the ash's trunk. I'm not sure how much flair there should be, but there is some. It's not very obvious from the picture, but if you look closely the soil surrounding the base is raised slightly compared to the surrounding lawn:

The next two pictures are of the red maple base. It too has some flair. There's a long forgotten alluminum barrier still in place that was a feeble attempt to keep the lawn away from the base some 15 years ago. Where it looks like its hanging out, is where I started to pull it out immediately before taking the picture. It only went 2" deep, could it be causing any problems? I removed it after taking the pictures- it slid out of the ground with little effort, and there didn't appear to be any roots visible in the opening. Also noticeable at the top of one of the pictures is a wound in the trunk that I hadn't noticed until now. I'm sure this is a contributing factor to it current problems:

I've noticed a few other immature trees in the neighborhood in this kind of decline, but ours are the worst. Our property has relatively thin topsoil in the higher elevations (where these trees are), and the subsoil is a very rocky, sandy gravel.

I'm not in a rush to cut down either tree, and of course will wait to see what happens next spring before deciding what to do with them.

 

[NeTree]

It looks more like a protective response to environmental conditions. I'd wait to see what happens in the next year or so. Try watering it some and see what happens, but don't overdue it.

I also agree with Mike. Keep a sharp eye out for boring insects and signs of disease setting in while the tree in in a distressed state.

 

[DadF]

I think I'll agree with Erik, even though there is not a whole lot of root flair showing on either one. Maples generally will put out a fairly conspicous root flair if planted at the proper depth.
Any chance of getting an air spade and doing a little basal excavation?
In the meantime a slow soak with a soaker hose(if that's possible) would do as much good as anything right now.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A better way to tell if it's dead, is to use your fingernail to scratch a stem. If it's green underneth the bark of small branches, the stem is still living.

The tree's look like they were planted at the correct level to me, and I not only live in your area, but have have done many root flair excavations on trees this size. This is clearly drought response, water them.

For the next few years, take good care of them, or they will die.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
I'd guess girdling from improper planting 20 years ago. . 90% of what most homeowners do to their trees is either ineffectual or harmful.

Brian's contempt for tree owners knows no bounds. this time it's clearly off base. All the other advice so far-scratch twigs to check for life, water slow, prevent pests, is on the mark.

Ending the turf competition would also help a great deal. Kill the grass and apply mulch beyond the dripline if you care more about your trees than the stupid grass which competes mightily with the tree in the thin, poor soil you describe. Aerate and inoculate your soil with compost to stimulate tree root growth.

Where are the past years' leaves? The tree shed them to build the soil and feed itself. You removed them and put nothing back except the trees' enemy. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! Search "Allelopathy of Fescue" if you want to know the evil that turfgrass is doing underground and ultimately a factor in the browning tree leaves.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

They look like a lot of trees here in SW WI. I wish this rain would keep on steady till Sunday nigh, but it ios comming in fits and starts right now. We've got only .5 so fat in the rain guage after darn near 24 hrs of it comming down.

Many ash I've been looking at still have green buds, birch ave not been fairing so well in dry, hot soil conditions.

Ive been telling people to decide wich are the most important trees and water them well. Deep penetrating irrigation with a time to dry out a little on top.

Pepople have been telling me they have not seen some spots since '88 or so.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
why was the little aluminum thingie in the dirt around the tree in the picture?

Brian that aluminum thingie was there to protect that beloved turfgrass from those evil tree roots, dontcha know?
Owner said he took out thingie and saw few roots under it so it wasn't the problem. Owner's only obvious error was wanting a bigger lawn at the expense of the tree, and if that were a capital crime most American homeowners would be on death row. I also agree with you that roots not spread out at planting time is a major problem, though I disagree with your 90% figure on that being the "root" of all tree's evils. Which research did that data come from, the "all tree owners are idiots" Freskian study? Methinks thy data are skewed by intolerant antipathy.
A look at the root flare (not "flair"--that's a pro wrestler's name I think) in the pic shows girdling is not doing these guys in. Tho an airspading might show some spaghetti further out, it's unlikely to be extreme enough to cause sudden browning. Tree seems drought-stricken because roots aren't deep or moist (boy am I smart or what?)

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
A look at the root flare (not "flair"--that's a pro wrestler's name I think) in the pic shows girdling is not doing these guys in. Tho an airspading might show some spaghetti further out, it's unlikely to be extreme enough to cause sudden browning. Tree seems drought-stricken because roots aren't deep or moist (boy am I smart or what?)

Flare/Flair, you got me again. Have you seen this thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10629

To have a SGR (Stem Girdling Root), you need the stem part. If the root flare is present, that excludes the stem.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Flare/Flair, you got me again. Have you seen this thread:

Yeah I saw it; pretty descriptive! Picking nits on e-spelling is silly(and a fulltime career on jps's posts alone), unless the misspelled way is the usual way it's spelled. If you write "root flair" to your customers it will not get you any more respect, or money!

To have a SGR (Stem Girdling Root), you need the stem part. If the root flare is present, that excludes the stem.

True; I was saying that RGR's--Root-Girdling Roots--"spaghetti" can also be a problem from the crappy planting practices that Rocky was railing against.
btw Shigo's definition of Girdling Roots in ANTBD--"Roots that kill portions of the entire circumference of other roots by growing around them."--didn't even mention SGR's
The MN video on SGR's is really good--have you seen it?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

So if we take the Shigo definition and the SGR and just say that a girdling root kills any portion of the tree we are all on the same page.

Bones and Smiley of Bartlett talk about fused rootplates bing good indicators of deacy. Used to be that roopt grafting was something to hope for as aposed to girdling.

My thoughts are leading to the veiw that we need to maintain basal health/progression ans well as that of the First Order Roots for a tree to reach a grand old age.

We need to define old in landscape settings too. My thought is so that the next owner can have a choice as to weather to keep it or not as aposed to weather it should be removed or not.

People who say that GR's are not a problem talk to trees in the wild, or park settings. In these cases sucsess rations can be 1:100 or even 1:50. By this I mean that if we start out with 50 trees and one survives over X numbers of years, it is not a bad thing.

In a landscape setting the ratio is very often 1:1. If we plant a tree in theire yard and it has to come down in 15 years because of a girdling root it can be traumatic to the home owner.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
So if we take the Shigo definition and the SGR and just say that a girdling root kills any portion of the tree we are all on the same page. Yes I think "or stem" was just left out of ANTBD; typo or oversight?


Bones and Smiley of Bartlett talk about fused rootplates bing good indicators of deacy. Used to be that roopt grafting was something to hope for as aposed to girdling.
A little good a lot bad? Species-and-site-dependent?

My thoughts are leading to the veiw that we need to maintain basal health/progression ans well as that of the First Order Roots for a tree to reach a grand old age.
Definitely
If we plant a tree and it has to come down in 15 years because of a girdling root it can be traumatic to the home owner.

Also traumatic to nursery and landscaper, if we work to show cause and effect. I looked at 3 dogwoods in a yard yesterday, cost $200. a pop at the nursery. All 3 declining, all 3 had 8" of nursery soil on the trunk above the root flare. Had to chop little roots to find flare, fun, fun. Owner will use my report to get replacements; installer or nursery will eat cost (or resell to some sucker who doesn't look for flare, then blames death on bugsdroughtdiseaseyadayada)

 

[wysiwyg]

Thank you to everyone for the replies...even the nasty ones. I wasn't the person who planted the tree or put in the aluminum thingy so it doesn't offend me. The trees were planted as 2-3 year seedlings at less than 2 feet of height. I was told that the aluminum thingy was put there to keep the grass out of a flower bed that existed around the tree at the time of planting. It would have come out much sooner had I been made aware of it or had discovered it through the grass covering it up.

I scratched some twigs and they all appeared to be green. The buds even appear to be swelling, i hope the tree doesn't plan on resprouting its leaves now that we have had over 1.5" of rain in the past 3 days.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Brian,

Without more than a written description of the tree you jumped the gun. You aren't familiar with local conditions. Lighten up, buddy.

Knowing that the trees are in SE Wisconsin and suffering from the same drought as the Twin Cities, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, mulch and water thoroughly and bet that they will leaf out in the spring. A lot of trees, even well planted, healthy ones, are going dormant as a self-preservation strategy.

My front yard is full of trees that I transplanted out of customers yards or the woods. Most of them are water stressed. And I have four feet of the most wonderful garden soil. The yard has been covered with at least four inches of wood chips for the past eight years. Just about as close to woods conditions that you will see in a yard in a first tier suburb. Still stressed.

Take a look a the buds on the trees. If they are plump and cover the whole limb, you're in good shape.

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

We only got an inch out of that "storm".

I doubt you will get a second flush this late, unless we get some higher temps for extended periods.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap

...snip, snip...

My front yard is full of trees that I transplanted out of customers yards or the woods. Most of them are water stressed. And I have four feet of the most wonderful garden soil. The yard has been covered with at least four inches of wood chips for the past eight years. Just about as close to woods conditions that you will see in a yard in a first tier suburb. Still stressed.

snip...


Tom [/B]

Although the stress may look the same, it is not. Tom's trees had the additional benefit of going into the drought with fewer stresses because of the better growing conditions and a shorter drought because the ground clutter kept the soil wet for a longer time after the drought started.
As a tree is water stressed, first it closes stomata, then it sheds it's leaves, next its’ stems can die, but what is worse is what's going on underground. Lack of water is bad, but lack of soil gas exchange can be even worse. As the drought goes on roots die, starting at the tips and working back, just like at the top of the tree. The extent of the damage from the drought may not be fully seen for years, just like construction damage to roots, or trimming the crown of the tree.

Tom, how do trees in an arborist’s lawn go unwatered during the worst drought in years?