Bay area air quality management banned burning on Christmas...

[Whitespider]

The “State’s Rights” issue was resolved by the Civil War and the ratification of the 1868 Fourteenth Amendment… although it took until 1890’s before the Supreme Court adopted the “Incorporation Doctrine” and interpreted the “Due Process Clause” to bind the states to most of the same standards as the federal government. This has been an ongoing process in the high court… with the Second Amendment being the latest to be visited in the last few years. The wording of these last couple decisions (Washington DC and Chicago) pretty much sets a precedent regarding any other questions as to how the states are bound to the Constitution and its Amendments. The states certainly have rights to make their own laws, as long as those laws don’t interfere with any individual rights guaranteed by the Constitution, Bill Of Rights or any other Amendments.

Even so, state and local governments continue to push the limits of this doctrine… and just because nobody has expended the time and resources to bring laws to the high court don’t make them legal… they are just simply un-challenged. The liberal-progressives know that it takes years and massive resources to challenge their BS… and they count on the fact that most will remain un-challenged for that very reason.

 

[cjk]

“There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”
― Ayn Rand


This quote is from one of my favorite books, Atlas Shrugged.

 

[myzamboni]

Here's your out when the Air Quality LEO knocks on your door (when your rat neighbor calls 'em) ...

From the ktvu report: "Homes without permanently installed heating were exempt from the ban."
My response would be: Sure, I have a permanent heating system, but the tank isn't permanently filled with oil ... and happens to be empty right now. You fill it and I'll run it :msp_rolleyes:

No tanks out here. They want us to use the gas furnaces. If you are caught, it is a warning for the first offense, so just don't get caught. I also have yet to hear any data about how many people have been cited.

 

[Ayatollah]

No tanks out here. They want us to use the gas furnaces. If you are caught, it is a warning for the first offense, so just don't get caught. I also have yet to hear any data about how many people have been cited.

I've just drafted a PRA to our AQB. I'm going to find out. Here the first time offender is 50.00, and after that the sky's the limit Iguess, because it says the AQB can make a determination based upon the harm you've done. This is what's extremely bad about California Administrative law, and it needs to be reigned in to near non-use.

 

[slowp]

“There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”
― Ayn Rand


This quote is from one of my favorite books, Atlas Shrugged.

Read it a long time ago. Ayn Rand was a sick individual. She seemed to admire a sicko killer. Check the story.

California, like Oregon, and our state suffer from too many folks from the east of us deciding to move to their idea of a utopia. They want clean air and mountains to cavort in. I will speak for my state.
Our population has grown, so we now can't do a lot of things we used to do. Portions of the mountains are now closed to us, you must go through a lottery process to get a permit to go there, and I fear more areas will become like that. We are loved to death.

There are two distinct climates, which are created by a mountain range going through the middle of our state. The East side is dryer, colder in the winter, and hotter in the summer. They definitely need to have no burn days. During cold, high pressure weather, the valleys get socked in by inversions and the air gets foul. I used to be a jogger in the Methow Valley and would cough my way around during those times.

The westside can have the same problem. We have so many people, concentrated in a few areas, that woodsmoke and truck/car exhaust will create some breathing problems during those times. People cannot seem to figure out when those times are, so in steps OUR government.

I'm lucky. I live in a sparsely populated area where we aren't affected much. Nor do we have local radio, TV or even a newspaper so it would be hard to figure out when burn bans were on.

I believe I posted some photos of an inversion on a previous discussion of this topic.

Now if you folks in the Mideast and east coast would improve your environment and make it pretty, maybe these imported folks would move back to the flatlands.

I don't see that happening so we out westers are doomed.

 

[Hedgerow]

Read it a long time ago. Ayn Rand was a sick individual. She seemed to admire a sicko killer. Check the story.

California, like Oregon, and our state suffer from too many folks from the east of us deciding to move to their idea of a utopia. They want clean air and mountains to cavort in. I will speak for my state.
Our population has grown, so we now can't do a lot of things we used to do. Portions of the mountains are now closed to us, you must go through a lottery process to get a permit to go there, and I fear more areas will become like that. We are loved to death.

There are two distinct climates, which are created by a mountain range going through the middle of our state. The East side is dryer, colder in the winter, and hotter in the summer. They definitely need to have no burn days. During cold, high pressure weather, the valleys get socked in by inversions and the air gets foul. I used to be a jogger in the Methow Valley and would cough my way around during those times.

The westside can have the same problem. We have so many people, concentrated in a few areas, that woodsmoke and truck/car exhaust will create some breathing problems during those times. People cannot seem to figure out when those times are, so in steps OUR government.

I'm lucky. I live in a sparsely populated area where we aren't affected much. Nor do we have local radio, TV or even a newspaper so it would be hard to figure out when burn bans were on.

I believe I posted some photos of an inversion on a previous discussion of this topic.

Now if you folks in the Mideast and east coast would improve your environment and make it pretty, maybe these imported folks would move back to the flatlands.

I don't see that happening so we out westers are doomed.

Yes, you are... Please keep them there... And, thank you Slowp, for "taking one for the team"...
:big_smile:

 

[Gologit]

We had anothr thread on this just a few weeks back Sacramento had a burn ban a few days ago, but as always, we ignore it. I'm not sure what the actual regulations are there, but there are some exemptions. Either way, we have to fight this thing. This is another nail in the coffin of independence. Someone asked if they were in cahoots with the utilities, and I'd say yes, but it isn't just the money. There is a move afoot to take away people's independence. These culture thieves are trying hard to force everyone under someone else's foot. If you want heat, you have to buy it from X; If you want water, you have to buy it from Y. If you want food, you have to buy it from Z. Burning, hunting, pumping, and fishing is either going to be outlawed, or made prohibitively expensive. A fishing license cost almost 50 dollars in California now, and this is a "right to fish" state. People who are beholden to someone else for all the necessities of life are much more easily controlled. I know there are good reasons to clean the air, however I also know that as soon as we do that, the same manipulative bastards start importing another million people to dirty it up more than what we had before. It's not the clean air they are after. It's your independence, and it ain't just Californians.

Yup...they're trying to take away our freedom to do almost everything. I think they should start mending their ways by letting those of us with rice ground start burning our stubble again. Especially on days with a strong north wind. And an inversion layer. I mean, to hell with those pinko weirdos in Sacramento...let 'em breath a little smoke. Or a lot, even.

Maybe we could even fix it so we're burning rice stubble, wheat stubble, and slash piles in the woods...all on the same day.
Nobody cares in my part of the state...as long as the smoke goes south.

Ayatolla, you won't mind gasping and wheezing for a few days every year will you? Think of the coughing and mucus as a political statement and testimony to the fact that smoke is survivable. Not much fun...but survivable. For a while anyway.

 

[Ayatollah]

Yup...they're trying to take away our freedom to do almost everything. I think they should start mending their ways by letting those of us with rice ground start burning our stubble again. Especially on days with a strong north wind. And an inversion layer. I mean, to hell with those pinko weirdos in Sacramento...let 'em breath a little smoke. Or a lot, even.

Maybe we could even fix it so we're burning rice stubble, wheat stubble, and slash piles in the woods...all on the same day.
Nobody cares in my part of the state...as long as the smoke goes south. .

Rice farmers and their burning stubble came way, way, way, after burning for warmth and cooking over a flame. That is also a commercial enterprise, and that the rules on that are far looser than what they've applied to us home fire burners. Their methods and motives are not pure. I never said I was against cleaner burning fires; But I am against a total ban, and especially so when you actually get cleaner burning equipment. They only want us to clean up the air so they have room to dirty it up for their uses. The same is done with our water. The quality keeps going downhill, and the only reason anyone wants to clean it up, at our costs, is so they can get clearance to build more dwellings and business.

Ayatolla, you won't mind gasping and wheezing for a few days every year will you? Think of the coughing and mucus as a political statement and testimony to the fact that smoke is survivable. Not much fun...but survivable. For a while anyway

Far, far more people are killed by criminals we don't have the money allegedly to lock up, than die or are harmed by poor quality air. Yet the priorities are the air? I'd probably go one farther and say I could find a lot more people who have been strangled by a killer than die from too many bad air days caused by fireplaces. Smoke has been around since the beginning of time here on this planet, and the majority doesn't seem that affected by it. Smoke clears up with the weather; the new population that dragged with them all this complaining, whining, #####ing, moaning, and constant need to regulate and force the existing inhabitants under their oppressive thumbs seem to hang on 24/7, 365...

 

[Gologit]

So you don't mind if we burn our rice stubble? Thanks...we need more people like you.

 

[Hedgerow]

So you don't mind if we burn our rice stubble? Thanks...we need more people like you.

I don't mind... Spark it...
:after_boom:

 

[1project2many]

Now if you folks in the Mideast and east coast would improve your environment and make it pretty, maybe these imported folks would move back to the flatlands.

Nope. I'm busy decimating the woodlands cutting and burning trees, creating CO and CO2, commuting 80 miles daily in 20+ year old rusted out vehicles, and supporting local elected officials who believe that income and sales taxes are surefire ways to encourage unnecessary government spending. It's a life that requires effort, attention, dedication, and character and I hope that anyone without these qualities stays on the other coast to keep chasing the dream of easy living in paradise. Folks, tell your friends and neighbors: California is the land of opportunity where dreamers and dreams unite. It takes work to make a life in the rest of the country.

 

[nvrs]

Just seems kinda strange that they would ban during the times that people are home the most. I'll bet and update this thread if they decide to ban it for new years... They asked us not to burn last Thursday and Friday, then banning Saturday and Sunday. I'll bet they will do the same again for new years.

 

[nvrs]

So no burn ban for NYE, but they sure did ban it on NYD. Its amazing though,we have the most gorgeous clear blue sky with cold temps and a nice 10-20 mph gusty breeze. I really would like to know what drives them to ban burning on a specific day with an advanced notice? How can they forecast when not to burn? The weather service can't efficiently predict when it is going to rain, so how can they predict when there is going to be too much PM 2.5?

 

[danrclem]

I really would like to know what drives them to ban burning on a specific day with an advanced notice? QUOTE]


They want to show you that they have control over you.

 

[Tesen]

California bans are not because of environmentalists, most people think it so and they are easy to blame. Let them shout and scream about pollution and the climate, mean while behind the scenes energy companies are rubbing their hands gleefully because gas and electricity usage goes up. Follow the money!

Sure, the environmentalists might get some kick-backs but that is a means to the end. We are a capitalist nation, who thinks a business would not want to increase their profits by rubbing elbows with an elected (or not so elected in some cases) official?

Bottom line - we're being bent over and both legs (that is left and right... wink) are being pulled wide open...

Tes

 

[Hddnis]

Increasing your profits by using government to reduce competition is not capitalism, it is theft, and it is wrong. Capitalism only works when honesty is the norm and is an enforced standard, it falls apart under corruption, it can't survive without moral character on the part of the participants. I suspect that it is more about .gov flexing its muscles and adhering to their religion of knowing better than the mere mortals.



Mr. HE

 

[Whitespider]

Increasing your profits by using government to reduce competition is not capitalism, it is theft, and it is wrong. Capitalism only works when honesty is the norm and is an enforced standard, it falls apart under corruption, it can't survive without moral character on the part of the participants. I suspect that it is more about .gov flexing its muscles and adhering to their religion of knowing better than the mere mortals.

I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Capitalism only works when there is NO government “enforced standard”. Throughout the short history of our country, whenever government attempts to enforce a standard the corruption shortly follows… then, and only then does capitalism “fall apart”.

Usually my sort of argument is countered by bringing up the monopolies and trusts that Roosevelt “busted” around the turn of the century. But a very close study of historic details reveals that those monopolies were thriving only because of previous government meddling… which in turn invited the corruption. Roosevelt didn’t even “bust” all the monopolies, he only targeted those he personally felt were acting badly, or those that public opinion pressured him into… talk about corruption. It can also be powerfully argued that the ramifications of this “trust busting” contributed strongly to the Great Depression some years later.

This is not to say that people shouldn’t be arrested, prosecuted and punished for criminal acts. But capitalism, by its very definition, can only work if it is left to its own devices… unfettered by government regulation. Capitalism… true capitalism… has not been allowed in this country since the end of the Civil War. Those that claim capitalism is evil are just flat ignorant… because it is the intervention by government, beginning in the 1860’s, that has created the evil… not capitalism itself.

 

[Hddnis]

I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Capitalism only works when there is NO government “enforced standard”. Throughout the short history of our country, whenever government attempts to enforce a standard the corruption shortly follows… then, and only then does capitalism “fall apart”.

Usually my sort of argument is countered by bringing up the monopolies and trusts that Roosevelt “busted” around the turn of the century. But a very close study of historic details reveals that those monopolies were thriving only because of previous government meddling… which in turn invited the corruption. Roosevelt didn’t even “bust” all the monopolies, he only targeted those he personally felt were acting badly, or those that public opinion pressured him into… talk about corruption. It can also be powerfully argued that the ramifications of this “trust busting” contributed strongly to the Great Depression some years later.

This is not to say that people shouldn’t be arrested, prosecuted and punished for criminal acts. But capitalism, by its very definition, can only work if it is left to its own devices… unfettered by government regulation. Capitalism… true capitalism… has not been allowed in this country since the end of the Civil War. Those that claim capitalism is evil are just flat ignorant… because it is the intervention by government, beginning in the 1860’s, that has created the evil… not capitalism itself.

We may be alot closer to agreeing than you think, notice first of all that I never said honesty was enforced by the government. Enforcement can take many forms, from not doing business with cheats and on up from there. Second, the focus has to be on having the vast majority of the people adhere to honesty as their personal moral standard. Morality must come from people, because it cannot come from government. The only thing that can come from government, as you mentioned, is punishment.

The reason that I mentioned having it as an enforced standard is because people that are dishonest have to be punished, to prevent them from doing it again, and to restore trust in an environment friendly to business. I don't believe that this is the proper purview of the federal government, except in cases of foreign companies breaking our laws.

We have far too many laws and far too many taxes. Our business environment is fascism, not capitalism. It is corrupt, to be anything more than a very small player you almost have to grease palms and wine and dine elected officials. It is wrong and it is the underlying reason for our economic woes. A problem which our government cannot and should not fix, beyond getting out of the way. It will never reign itself in, that is up to us, we have to rein it in, we have to decide we want freedom.



Mr. HE

 

[Chris-PA]

Ahh yes, find someone to blame. While the "Coservative" team and the "Liberal" team are busy blaming each other, the very wealthy and the corporations and governments they control are laughing their butts off and stealing everyone blind. Divide and conquer. I can't believe people still fall for that scam.

Yes, the government and our institutions are mostly corrupt (this is not new or news), but all of this blame the liberals and the environmentalists sounds like little children throwing tantrums "somebody said I have to obey a rule, bawww!" Grow up - do you folks let your kids to whatever the hell they want to, or do you teach them they have to follow rules to get along in life?

If you live in a heavily populated area, what you do impacts more other people, and what they do impacts you more. If you want to live like you're in a rural are, then move to one. Not mine, hopefully. People who live in populated areas have to deal with more rules, just like it has been since the dawn of civilization. When population densities become greater, then they impact the environment more.

However, one should at least think a little bit: The oil companies sell every last drop they can pump, so they don't need to play games with pollution alerts and burning bans to increase their profits - that be pissing in the ocean. If you don't use it the next guy will. Whatever the reason is for the ban, whether it be corrupt or not, that isn't it.

Not all pollutants are visible in the air. More than likely the air quality is bad. More than likely it's because some corporation is pumping out crap, so you have to stop burning your stove to make up for it.

 

[rtrsam]

Look at the Diesel Emissions: their objective is to get EVERY diesel engine (including off-road only stuff) manufactured before 2010 decommissioned/destroyed/moved to a less enlightened state...

CARB – Diesel Emissions Overestimated 340% | Co2 Insanity

Read it and shake your head in wonder, it's about money and poilitics and nothing else, certainly not health or air quality.