A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
I use AR400 for the slide plate, main knife, and 4-way knife. I use grade 50 for the pusher assembly except for the bracing, that's A36.
Been gone for a while, here's a few splitters I've built recently.
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I use AR400 for the slide plate, main knife, and 4-way knife. I use grade 50 for the pusher assembly except for the bracing, that's A36.
EXCALIBER
ArboristSite Guru
I guess I shouldn't have used the term plastic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene
I believe this is the same material we use under our locomotives between the body and the two trucks that hold the traction motors and wheels. Two "plastic" discs that allow the truck to turn and these never wear out. Now considering that a locomotive weighs about 415000lbs so roughly 70 tons on each disc no bigger than a large dinner plate and only a 1/4 inch thick. I was thinking of using a single stage pump so every time you hit the wood you don't drop down to 7gpm you stay at 22gpm increasing cycle speed. Yes it would take some hp to run it
From my research I think built-rite is using a permco hydraulic pump for their 24 series diesel splitter. At least from the video and still pictures.
It is very similar to a P124B085********
I got mine on ebay for $80. But not sure exact size of pump built-rite used.
That permico pump looks like a double pump with two outlet ports. If that is the same pump that built rite is using, I would venture to guess that they are using it as a high/low pump, just like a two stage log splitter pump. One section is set for high flow low pressure and the other set for high pressure low flow. In reality, both sections could be pumping the same amount of flow, with one section set at around 1000psi and the other section set for 3000psi. With this method, when the low pressure section reaches its set pressure, the fluid is unloaded back to tank while the other section continues to build pressure. While this setup is similar to a two stage pump, it will allow you to run higher flows at greater pressure than the typical two stage log splitter pumps.
That is what I have not figured out yet. I was thinking one pump is for main pusher and other pump was for log lift and 4 way. Hard to tell about the plumbing from pictures.
Not sure what or how your build plans are. I can tell you how to plumb it so the double pump works like a two stage. For making it work like you want it, I would need more details.
If you want to use one pump for log lift and 4way, and the other pump for just the splitter, you will need valve for each. If you use a two spool valve for the log/4way lift and a seperate single spool or auto cycle valve, at least one of those valve would need to have Power beyond. I would probably try to make sure the log/wedge lift was the valve with power beyond and then the splitter valve could be without power beyond. You would plumb each valve to the respective pressure port off the double pump, treating each pump and valve as a separate circuit. Your valve with PB would have a return line to tank on the return port and a pressure line from the PB port. This pressure line would go to pressure in or in port of a unloader valve with checkvalve bypass. The unloader valve will have a return to tank a pressure in and a pressure out ports. The return or tank port goes to tank and the pressure out goes to a tee in the pressure line of the second pump, before the second control valve. Plumbing this way will insure that your loglift/wedge lift works all the time and your never robbing oil from that circuit. If you plumb the splitter valve to to unloader valve first, your wedge and loader circuit wont work, or be very jerky if your trying to operate the splitter cyl at the same time.
If plumbed as first suggested, you will need to set the pressure on the unloading valve lower than main splitting pressure. Lets say you want 3000psi at the splitter cyl, but your motor wont pull both pumps at full pressure. You can set the unloader valve to 1000psi and the control valve relief at 3000psi. As soon as system pressure reaches above the 1000psi setting of the unloader vavle, it will shift to tank, the check valve bypass will close and will allow the splitter pump to continue to build pressure, up to the relief valve setting and only flow what ever flow that pump will produce and take less hp than it would if you where trying pull both pumps at 3000psi and 1000 psi. The first pump would still be producing flow, but because that flow was being directed back to tank, hp usage would be minimal. As soon as pressure requirement droped below the 1000psi unloader valve setting, the unloader valve will shift and the check vavle bypass will open and allow both flows to go to the splitter cyl and increase cyl speed. Since pressure requirements are cut in less than half, you can pump twice the flow with the same hp.
I am going to add just in case someone is thinking a relief and unloader valve can be interchanged, they cant. A relief valve is a normally closed valve, internally pressure sensing and doesnot have a check valve bypass. Pressure is sensed on the inlet side of the valve and when pressure is reached over the settings, it pushes against as spring loaded ball and returns oil to tank. This creates heat.
A unloader valve is normally open, can be internally or externally pressure sensing, and senses pressure on the outlet of the valve. Once pressures are reached over the valve setting, the pressure shifts a spool returning oil to tank. This oil flow is not running over a check valve and does not produce heat. In the system I described above, the unloader valve would be sensing the pressure of the splitting circuit instead of the lift/wedge circuit.
If you want to use one pump for log lift and 4way, and the other pump for just the splitter, you will need valve for each. If you use a two spool valve for the log/4way lift and a seperate single spool or auto cycle valve, at least one of those valve would need to have Power beyond. I would probably try to make sure the log/wedge lift was the valve with power beyond and then the splitter valve could be without power beyond. You would plumb each valve to the respective pressure port off the double pump, treating each pump and valve as a separate circuit. Your valve with PB would have a return line to tank on the return port and a pressure line from the PB port. This pressure line would go to pressure in or in port of a unloader valve with checkvalve bypass. The unloader valve will have a return to tank a pressure in and a pressure out ports. The return or tank port goes to tank and the pressure out goes to a tee in the pressure line of the second pump, before the second control valve. Plumbing this way will insure that your loglift/wedge lift works all the time and your never robbing oil from that circuit. If you plumb the splitter valve to to unloader valve first, your wedge and loader circuit wont work, or be very jerky if your trying to operate the splitter cyl at the same time.
If plumbed as first suggested, you will need to set the pressure on the unloading valve lower than main splitting pressure. Lets say you want 3000psi at the splitter cyl, but your motor wont pull both pumps at full pressure. You can set the unloader valve to 1000psi and the control valve relief at 3000psi. As soon as system pressure reaches above the 1000psi setting of the unloader vavle, it will shift to tank, the check valve bypass will close and will allow the splitter pump to continue to build pressure, up to the relief valve setting and only flow what ever flow that pump will produce and take less hp than it would if you where trying pull both pumps at 3000psi and 1000 psi. The first pump would still be producing flow, but because that flow was being directed back to tank, hp usage would be minimal. As soon as pressure requirement droped below the 1000psi unloader valve setting, the unloader valve will shift and the check vavle bypass will open and allow both flows to go to the splitter cyl and increase cyl speed. Since pressure requirements are cut in less than half, you can pump twice the flow with the same hp.
I am going to add just in case someone is thinking a relief and unloader valve can be interchanged, they cant. A relief valve is a normally closed valve, internally pressure sensing and doesnot have a check valve bypass. Pressure is sensed on the inlet side of the valve and when pressure is reached over the settings, it pushes against as spring loaded ball and returns oil to tank. This creates heat.
A unloader valve is normally open, can be internally or externally pressure sensing, and senses pressure on the outlet of the valve. Once pressures are reached over the valve setting, the pressure shifts a spool returning oil to tank. This oil flow is not running over a check valve and does not produce heat. In the system I described above, the unloader valve would be sensing the pressure of the splitting circuit instead of the lift/wedge circuit.
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet or really pushed.. More gpm is all fun and dandy if your willing to spend dramatically more mobs tang typically more work. Need more hp, need more oil or a cooler, higher flowing valves, need to run a dump valve, need larger lines, need larger filter assembly and strainer (most don't run one but should.). Once you get past the 25 gpm things get expensive really quick. To some people there simpleton fine with that and it's justified.. Most would think yours crazy and are far from Willing to pay that extra chunk of $$. Just my $ .02.
Its "Tool Time" is on most everybodies mind most of the time. More power, More speed, ar,ar,ar, easy to do, but it'll cost you. Really and truly, for a homeowner wanting a splitter, most any store brand will do. When your trying to do commercial, thats when all the dodads, start becoming justified. For a real firewood business, its pretty easy to justify some of the extras, more production equals more sales. Dependability equates to less down time and equals more production. What it really boils down to is how much production you want and what your willing to spend. I will say if one is willing to scrounge the scrap yards and has patience and a little knowledge as to what to look for, they can build a super duper wood splitter on a pretty low budget.
Good info on unloading valve for dual output pump and not needing extra horse power at high pressure. Not sure if Built-rite is using a unloading valve. They are using a auto cycle valve and different valve assembly for log lift and 4 way. I will have auto cycle, steering, drive wheels, 4 way, winch and stabilizers. Will need a different thread for this monster. I did have to watch some videos on you tube to better understand unloading valve.
Most certainly start a thread. I get a ton of good ideals from this site. Theres always some one willing to try and build a better mouse trap. And usually enough like mined folks here to help figure out how to make it work.
For those wanting to understand how hydraulics work, this is one of the best youtube series of videos I have found on the web.
. There are around 30something vids in the series covering pretty much all the basics.
For those wanting to understand how hydraulics work, this is one of the best youtube series of videos I have found on the web.
. There are around 30something vids in the series covering pretty much all the basics.
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm not a fan of using "used parts" If I'm going to build something it's going to be with new parts. That way I know it's a fresh start. By no means will I use "used" parts for a customer build. If it's my personal machine maybe but never if I think it may go to a new home. As for the more power, speed = easy to do... Maybe if you wanna just cob something together but if you want to do it correctly there's a little more to it. I've seen lots of high flow/gpm splitters out there built wrong. Sadly a lot of them are built by known companies. They know what they did but expect the end user to assume they have the best of the best. Most everything else I see as an opinion. Everyone has one. I just wish more would post facts (correct) facts rather then there opinions.
I know Samtips build will be done correctly.
I dont build and sell anything. I find a need for something and buy or build it for my own use. I would think if I was building for someone, they would want the best of parts and be willing to pay for them. For my own use, I use what I can find and accept the results. Thats not to say I would cobble something together just to get by. I dont understand your being against using double pumps in a high/low hydraulic system. What part of my post do you feel is fact or opinion
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
I never said I was against double pumps. Was just stating facts for positives and negatives. Only thing that kinda gripes my balls in when some guy pretty much hijacks my thread and tries to sound like a know it all, like he's got something to prove. Examples like this is a clear reason why this forum has lost many of knowledgeable and friendly people.
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
On a side note.. I started selling these splitters because I was so upset about what splitters were out there and what they wanted for them for what you were getting. Making a little money and I mean little.. on a sale is nice but I enjoy the feeling that I know they got what they paid for better then anything.
I see, I make two comments about a pump pictured in this thread, and all other comments where replies to you and I hijacked this thread. My first reply to you was in response to you actually calling me crazy and simpleton fine. And then you suggested that I was posting opinions and not facts. And now I'm a know it all and a example of why this forum has lost knowledgeable and friendly people. It easy to see what kind of example you are setting, maybe you should think about that for a while. Nowhere in thread, or any other,have I said anything derogatory about you or the equipment you build. I was reading this thread because I did like the equipment you are building and it know what it takes to produce a piece of equipment like that. But in the end, it is still just another log splitter and log splitter hydraulics are one of the first simple hydraulic systems they teach in hydraulic engineering. So its not anything really special and your not doing anything really any different than anybody else that build log splitters and not using any specialty parts that others dont use. I'll step out of your thread now and put you on ignore so I wont ever again see anything you post and that way you wont have to worry about me stepping on your little toes.
Before I leave, I will agree with you about the quality and some of the prices of wood splitters available on the market.
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
What bugged me the most is in my "opinion" you were giving false hope to possible builders of splitters. I agree that yes some and most splitters are very simple to build but when you start getting in the higher Gpms and larger cylinder rods there's a lot more to look into and in my "opinion" people discard or more or left don't care about. As for the statement that I said about stating opinions vs facts, if you took took it as it was solely directed towards you that's incorrect. Was directed at forums in general. "Oil threads, best saw, best brand" all stuff like that hardly gets facts posted vs opinions. I did take a lot of your info based off of an opinion but was being sold on facts "easy to build, cheap, commercial use". I just don't want someone to take an opinion and see it as a fact. That's with anything and any where. Some people know who they can pull info from and know it's facts vs opinionated. As for my splitters are just like any other splitter out there, I call complete BS and actually take offense to that. I challenge you to take either the red or blue splitter here and compare it to a TW, BW, AW, or any others out there and see differences in quality, attention to detail, BETTER steels (AR Plates) as a main one, wedge design, standard log rack, adjustable height log rack, standard fenders, 15" radials, among other things. All at competitive prices.
AE,, I did put you on ignore, but got on without logging in so I did see your reply. I am not going to argue with you about rights or wrong or anything else. Your Opinion that I was giving false hope to other would be builders, I dont agree with. I did say when searching the scrap yards, one does need to know what they are looking for. And I am 100% correct that there is more than one way to get two stage pump flows. Does one need a little more than the basic knowledge of bolting on parts and hooking up hoses, darn right, but that doesnt mean it cant be done. I tried to provide a little information on how the high low pump system worked and added clarification so someone wouldnt make the mistake of trying to use a relief in the place of a unloading valve. And Sam did search for more information on the subject, which would be wise advice to anybody attempting such a setup.
As to taking offense to my saying your splitter being the same as any other splitter, I dont have one of your splitters here to look at. I dont know where any of the other brands similar to yours are located, so I cant look at one of those either. Trying to judge quality by a picture is pretty worthless. I am not doubting that you are building a quality well built wood splitter, I actually think you are. But as for it being different than anything out there, maybe in quality, but you are still using a little gas engine, a two stage pump, hydraulic cyl, and control valves, just the same as any other manufacturer, and you are putting them together pretty much the same way anybody else would put those same parts together. You might be providing more hydraulic storage and oil coolers, strainer filters than most/majority of the factory guys, but its still pretty much the same basic design. I am not saying that to offend, just stating the obvious, and that is "My" opinion, whether you agree or not.
I wont debate this further in this thread, if you wish to reply to what I have said, do it in a pm, I took you off ignore so i will receive any replies you wish to make. And using the pm will stop cluttering up your thread. In fact, I think you should contact the Mods and just have them delete our whole exchange on this subject. That would clean up this thread and put a stop to the pettiness.
As to taking offense to my saying your splitter being the same as any other splitter, I dont have one of your splitters here to look at. I dont know where any of the other brands similar to yours are located, so I cant look at one of those either. Trying to judge quality by a picture is pretty worthless. I am not doubting that you are building a quality well built wood splitter, I actually think you are. But as for it being different than anything out there, maybe in quality, but you are still using a little gas engine, a two stage pump, hydraulic cyl, and control valves, just the same as any other manufacturer, and you are putting them together pretty much the same way anybody else would put those same parts together. You might be providing more hydraulic storage and oil coolers, strainer filters than most/majority of the factory guys, but its still pretty much the same basic design. I am not saying that to offend, just stating the obvious, and that is "My" opinion, whether you agree or not.
I wont debate this further in this thread, if you wish to reply to what I have said, do it in a pm, I took you off ignore so i will receive any replies you wish to make. And using the pm will stop cluttering up your thread. In fact, I think you should contact the Mods and just have them delete our whole exchange on this subject. That would clean up this thread and put a stop to the pettiness.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Mods, please don't wipe anything. Leave it up to readers to decide for themselves if it was worth reading. I for one enjoy the learning opportunities and am grateful for anyone who takes the time to share what they know.
JeffGu
Antagonist/Heckler
When I'm elected Dictator of the Internet, I'm going to implement a system of settling forum disputes that is civilized, fair, and entertaining. Here's how it will work:
The ring will consist of an 8'x10' dump box trailer with 6" layer of wood chips. Opponents will wear a tutu and ballerina slippers in the color of their choice, but good color coordination and a sense of style will be required to lend an air of professionalism to the fight. Two old lady purses, purchased at a thrift store (one with that fake leopard skin crap, one with paisley furniture cloth) will be filled with sawdust or maybe cow poop and will be the only weapons allowed. It will be a full-blown, sissy-slap b*tch fight with five two-minute rounds. A panel of judges will use scorecards like they use in Olympic events, for each round, and final scores tallied up at the end. If the judges can't breathe because they're rolling around laughing, opponents will go to a neutral corner until the judges are revived.
It's not a perfect system, but I think it will be lots more entertaining than the current one.
The ring will consist of an 8'x10' dump box trailer with 6" layer of wood chips. Opponents will wear a tutu and ballerina slippers in the color of their choice, but good color coordination and a sense of style will be required to lend an air of professionalism to the fight. Two old lady purses, purchased at a thrift store (one with that fake leopard skin crap, one with paisley furniture cloth) will be filled with sawdust or maybe cow poop and will be the only weapons allowed. It will be a full-blown, sissy-slap b*tch fight with five two-minute rounds. A panel of judges will use scorecards like they use in Olympic events, for each round, and final scores tallied up at the end. If the judges can't breathe because they're rolling around laughing, opponents will go to a neutral corner until the judges are revived.
It's not a perfect system, but I think it will be lots more entertaining than the current one.
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