Black ooze from stressed Silver Maple

[FBerkel]

Anybody seen slime flux on Silver Maple that is jet black? I'm wondering if it couldn't be fungal, instead. Runny, not sticky. (tree has limited dieback, some pre-mature color change, some cambial lesions, but the ooze not associated with these.)

Appreciate any feedback if you've seen this, thanks.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Where's it oozing from? A croptch, a wound, the base, futher up?
A picture would save a lot of words.
Jetblack ooze is not uncommon; the color I think is from a funges growing in the sap.

 

[Stumper]

Sounds like a secondary mold in the flow.

 

[tshanefreeman]

I too believe that I can relate to what you are seeing. The so called black ooze appears sooty in nature...............

Well the conclusion that I came to after observing the same flux is that it originates from branch unions/crotches and is typically always on the lowest point of the branch................the area where gravity's attractive forces meet. I believe that the 'black flux' is sooty mold growing upon annual sap flow which will originate from unions and flow on the underside of branches..............therefore, not harmful and nothing worry about. Merely aesthetic!

 

[tshanefreeman]

I also meant to say that I agree with 'Stumper'................that my theory also implies that the sooty mold, which is a fungus, is growing in the tree's natural sap trail.

 

[FBerkel]

This is coming out of the bark, from between furrows, on the main stem. It is odorless, onlike bacterial wetwood, so maybe fungus is right.

Thanks; I'll see if I can get a photo soon.

 

[tshanefreeman]

Fred,

Here is an attached photo that I took illustrating the black streaking to which I am refering.........

As you can see, all streaks are located on the lowest possible sides of all illustrating branches.

Hope you find this helpful!

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by tshanefreeman
all streaks are located on the lowest possible sides of all illustrating branches. Hope you find this helpful!

The photo shows fluxing due to tip-heavy branches; you can see that silver maples benefit from reduction cuts:.

What Fred is talking about sounds like "bleeding lesions" on the stem, indicating an infection such as Phytophthora. It comes out black to start with, from fungal activity.

Fred buddy, post a picture! If you can't master the technology, do what I do and hire a teenager.

 

[tshanefreeman]

Guy,

I don't really understand your concept of tip heavy branches.............not meaning that this isn't the case, just that I would like a further description.

This pictured Silver Maple was only about 30-35' tall, most branches growing vertically.....................not what I would say as being tip heavy.................in fact I've seen many trees that are far more obese than this particular one!

 

[Stumper]

Guy's tongue is in his cheek.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Theory #1: The branches may be vertical but the tips are still heavy and when they flex downward they make compression cracks on the lower side of the limbs, and that's where the ooze comes from.
Shane, do you have another theory?
Stumper, tongue was only half in cheek; in a landscape setting imo part of young tree training is reducing tips of defect-prone trees like silvermaple. In the recent TCI mag article this approach was dissed for lack of scientific research support. There is also a lack of research on the benefits of breathing but I do it anyway.:Monkey:

 

[Stumper]

Guy, I agree with you about tip reduction in the young of some tree species. Research, smesearch! I've done it on enough young trees that I've observed later to know that it can be beneficial. Ms. Turnbull's statement that the same age trees will be equivalent in height whether it is done or not may indeed be true but it doesn't reflect the weight distribution pattern or subtle differences in scaffold branch diameters. Some of the species that I have noted the best responses to tip reduction during formative years include Silver Maple , Pecan, and Honey Locust. Even if the scaffold branch thickening is just my imagination (which I don't believe) the trees are better shaped with better load distribution.:angel:

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Stumper
the best responses to tip reduction during formative years include Silver Maple , Pecan, and Honey Locust.

Definitely pecan, red maple, willow oak, any sp. that tends to narrow forks and sprawling habit. Yes this can be overdone, but the effects of overdoing are far less serous than those from not doing tip reduction.

Back to Fred's ooze, I think SOD is just one kind of Phytophthora epidemic, and we'd best prepare for other outbreaks. I recently gave a red oak a 30% Condition rating in an appraisal due to that kind of black ooze that looked like phytophthora. It was advanced, and correcting it looked expensive and uncertain. I see it on a lot of red oaks around here in NC, a long way from CA.

 

[FBerkel]

Guy,

I considered phythopthora, though the picture in my Sinclair Lyons et.al. showed a definite canker associated with the bleeding. The tree in question only has one very large canker, but the bleeding is coming from other parts of the stem. It could be that there are new cankers under, that haven't sunken in yet.

Cass T. is a self-righteous crusader, who puts the burden of proof on the other guy (gal), and never on herself.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by FBerkel
the picture in my Sinclair Lyons et.al. showed a definite canker associated with the bleeding.
Over 40 sp. exist that act on 1000's of host sp. and there are only 4 pgs. of pics in SL. So it's no surprise you don't see in the book what you see in the tree. Plus the 3rd edition is now 10 yrs old; before SOD hit it big.
the bleeding is coming from other parts of the stem. It could be that there are new cankers under, that haven't sunken in yet.
That would be my guess too.

Cass T. is a self-righteous crusader, who puts the burden of proof on the other guy (gal), and never on herself.

She's also a gifted manager of shrubs and communicator on shrub management. I was a loyal follower of her crusade until I saw it advocated killing trees for insufficient cause. There was a lot in the article I agreed with, and there are other prominent writers, in AN and elsewhere, who back their ideas with little data yet demand much data from others.
It's a real dilemma; how to apply scientific principles to practical work, and how to conduct meaningful research on trees.

Fred it'd be good to see images of each others' trees; I'll hire my teenager and try to do my end.

 

[FBerkel]

Guy,

Great thoughts, so thanks.

There are so many problems with studying mature trees (like how to compare results with a control group, when most mature trees vary significantly from each other). So, the work does not get done, by and large. But if you spend decades practicing some technique or another, and compare how your trees fare with how others nearby do, you start to arrive at "truth" in a less rigorous, but as valuable a way. Especially if you get a chance to dissect some wood from the trees you've pruned, to compare to that of the neighbor's.

Just because the scientific study hasn't been done does not necessarily mean that some people, if they are serious and conscientious, don't know for an absolute fact that a particular technique is or isn't effective (sorry about the quadrupal negative). A good example is the fact that topping has been shunned in some cultures for centuries, even though the work of proving it's inadvisability wasn't done until later. Some people cared enough, and were observant enough, that they just knew it was wrong. Another (and I think Cass comes out on the wrong side of this one) is pollarding. This technique has been used for centuries, but it wasn't until lately that it was shown via experimental method to clearly not cause significant decay, while preventing massive failure.

Where, btw, is the peer reviewed work relating to her phrase "tree dignity"? Some rounded over crab apples around my town look amazingly dignified to me.

Back to the tree in question: The homeowner did mention that he watered the heck out of the tree during last years drought, which agrees with the causal conditions described in SL for phythopthora.

Pictures of the tree: I need hardware, so I can load my software to process any images. I'm probably a week or two from getting this together, so I'll revisit this thread when I can post the pics, (sans teenager, I think )