Carabiner question.

[iangoldsmith196]

Hi.
Very new to harness work, but very keen to get airborne. My questions are regarding carabiners. I want to start training a.s.a.p and am slowly gathering my equipment as and when I can afford it. So...

What type of carabiner do you recommend for attaching the rope to the harness/saddle? Is there a minimum kn rating? I understand that the HMS type are popular, but which ones? Is steel or aliminium important? How many will I need for the very basic harness/rope/prussik set up and what type do you favour?

ANY and as much information as you can give will be gratefully received.

Thanks.

Ian.

 

[moray]

Wecome, Ian. You might cruise around the Sherrill Web site--they have a lot of biners for arborists. Almost all are aluminum, minimum strength (in US) is just over 22 kN. The arborist ones need to be triple action to guard against accidental opening.

You'll probably need a minimum of a couple. I like the Petzl Am'd, Item: 28337.

Good luck

 

[newguy18]

Hi.
Very new to harness work, but very keen to get airborne. My questions are regarding carabiners. I want to start training a.s.a.p and am slowly gathering my equipment as and when I can afford it. So...

What type of carabiner do you recommend for attaching the rope to the harness/saddle? Is there a minimum kn rating? I understand that the HMS type are popular, but which ones? Is steel or aliminium important? How many will I need for the very basic harness/rope/prussik set up and what type do you favour?

ANY and as much information as you can give will be gratefully received.

Thanks.

Ian.

get auto lockers unless they will be used in rigging get aluminum. and minimum breaking strength i think is 26 kn or 5,000 lbs.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Just so you know.............1 KN (kilonewton) is approximately 225 lbs.

 

[daveyclimber]

I have always used Petzl William Ball lock, Am'D is another great and is a D shape which is probably better suited if you need a more compact package. (I have big hands so I use the William) They also are key lock instead of pin lock so less snagging on the rope.

 

[beowulf343]

Forget the biners, go with a locking rope snap-easier to unsnap with gloves on. If i do need to use a biner though, i like the ones that sherrill's calls the jake. The only problem is that it is a pin lock gate.

 

[Blinky]

I like the Petzl ball lock Am'D. DMM Boas are nice too. Definitely positive locking mechs though

 

[ddhlakebound]

I use an aluminum rope snap on my climbing line, and an Petzl AMD ball lock on my split tail.

 

[moray]

One nice thing about a big biner like the Petzl William Triact is you can hook your rope and both ends of a closed split tail on just the one biner. Not so great, though, if you have to pass a limb on the way to your TIP.

 

[iangoldsmith196]

Thanks.

Thanks guys for taking the time out to give your thoughts. Most appreciated.

 

[jomoco]

Carabiners

I've no objection to using locking biners for climbing line redirect applications,
however using them for a primary bodyline attachment point is something I just won't do, I use a double locking rope attachment clip manufactured and rated for that specific purpose.

Now I know there are lots of climbers that will argue this point, and my rebuttal is this very salient point, if you somehow fall and the dynamic force of that fall is applied to the gate mechanism of any of these fancy new biners, well all I can say is that it can be an awfull mistake with a very abrupt ending.

Primary attachment points= your life!

Think about that very hard!

Work Safe!

jomoco

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.

A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.

A krab should only be used with self cinching knots (unless possibly to captive eye); so that it can't wander and become leveraged across or towards gate/ so as to not carry the force inline along it's solid, long axis. So a bowline, could allow a krab to cross-load, whereby a well set/choked triple Scaffold/Noose/Fisherman's won't.

MyTreeLessons.Com/Carabiner-Bowlines Warning​

 

[jomoco]

How many climbers understand what you just said?

A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.

A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.

A krab should only be used with self cinching knots (unless possibly to captive eye); so that it can't wander and become leveraged across or towards gate/ so as to not carry the force inline along it's solid, long axis. So a bowline, could allow a krab to cross-load, whereby a well set/choked triple Scaffold/Noose/Fisherman's won't.

While I admire your in depth knowledge relating to this subject, practically speaking a goodly percentage of beginning climbers won't have a clue about what you just said.

It worries me very much that the number of climbers using carabiners as their primary attachment points is increasing by the year due to acceptance of inferior non-treeservice manufactured primary support carabiners being pushed and sold by arborist supply houses, who obviously don't have a clue about the dangers involved.

I'm telling you in the strongest terms I can, if you use these fancy new biners as a primary attachment point as an arborist, you are playing russian roulette with your life. Buy and use equipment manufactured and rated specifically for the business you're in when it comes to primary attachments to your body or more appropriately life line.

jomoco

 

[joesawer]

Jomoco, I agree that rope clips are better, and safer for tree work. But, my saddle is not rated for fall arrest. It is a work position saddle. I have more confidence in its strength than in its design to protect me in a fall.

 

[moray]

I'm telling you in the strongest terms I can, if you use these fancy new biners as a primary attachment point as an arborist, you are playing russian roulette with your life.
jomoco

Jomoco, having watched my biner sliding back and forth on my saddle's bridge during body thrusting, and watching it twist around, on several occasions until it was hanging off the gate, I began to appreciate the deficiencies of carabiners. I solved this in two ways. When using two biners, I tie them together with a piece of string. If my closed loop split tail and rope are all on one biner, then it is always under load and has no chance to get misaligned.

Even so, I would agree that the rope clip should be safer.

But, I wonder if your "russian roulette" comment is maybe a little over the top. Arborists very rarely fall, and their equipment isn't designed to protect them against that. And on the rare occasion when a fall occurs, it would be very unlikely that the biner could somehow rotate around to load the gate, especially if the attached ropes/tails are cinched where they should be.

I think it would be more accurate to say the rope clip is marginally safer but somewhat less convenient and versatile than the biner. But I think anyone who is using two biners on a bridge-style saddle should tie them together so they cannot flop around.

 

[newguy18]

I use an aluminum rope snap on my climbing line, and an Petzl AMD ball lock on my split tail.

am i the only person who still climbs tail tied! i tried split tail but it just seemed akward to me so i stayed traditional tail tied

 

[ddhlakebound]

am i the only person who still climbs tail tied! i tried split tail but it just seemed akward to me so i stayed traditional tail tied

Hi Bill.....see you made it back......:newbie:

What do you mean by "akward"?

Using a fixed tail is fine, as long as you can set your TIP once, and never need to redirect around a limb.

With a split tail you can re-direct very quickly, and can also use your climbing line as a secondary lanyard when climbing around crotches or limbs. You do stay tied in at all times right?

I retyped my post to be less of a flame, and more respectful, in an attempt to follow the example JPS set in dealing with trolls. (Like you...)

 

[ddhlakebound]

A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.

A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.

A krab should only be used with self cinching knots (unless possibly to captive eye); so that it can't wander and become leveraged across or towards gate/ so as to not carry the force inline along it's solid, long axis. So a bowline, could allow a krab to cross-load, whereby a well set/choked triple Scaffold/Noose/Fisherman's won't.

While I admire your in depth knowledge relating to this subject, practically speaking a goodly percentage of beginning climbers won't have a clue about what you just said.

It worries me very much that the number of climbers using carabiners as their primary attachment points is increasing by the year due to acceptance of inferior non-treeservice manufactured primary support carabiners being pushed and sold by arborist supply houses, who obviously don't have a clue about the dangers involved.

I'm telling you in the strongest terms I can, if you use these fancy new biners as a primary attachment point as an arborist, you are playing russian roulette with your life. Buy and use equipment manufactured and rated specifically for the business you're in when it comes to primary attachments to your body or more appropriately life line.

jomoco

I agree that TheTreeSpyder's posts are somewhat difficult to comprehend, but once you read through it a couple times, and wrap your mind around it, a new climber can gain MUCH information and knowledge from his posts. Of all the people here, if I had to list people I've learned from, TheTreeSpyder would easily be in the top 3.

How can a person climb on VT, or martin hitch, and many others while using a rope snap?

Like spidey says, if your attachment to your biner is cinched down, not allowing the biner to rotate in the knot, its VERY difficult to side load the biner. Sure, if you tie on the the biner with a bowline you can get it to side load. So don't do that.

I climb on a double locking biner rated at 6294 lbs/28kN. I use a martin hitch, and both legs are cinched to the biner with double fishermans. I've never had my biner rotate in the knots to side load the biner. How is this unsafe?

I do completely agree that everyone using any hardware to support their life should know exactly what they're using, and use only rated, proper equipment.

 

[newguy18]

Hi Bill.....see you made it back......:newbie:

What do you mean by "akward"?

Using a fixed tail is fine, as long as you can set your TIP once, and never need to redirect around a limb.

With a split tail you can re-direct very quickly, and can also use your climbing line as a secondary lanyard when climbing around crotches or limbs. You do stay tied in at all times right?

I retyped my post to be less of a flame, and more respectful, in an attempt to follow the example JPS set in dealing with trolls. (Like you...)

if i am over 30 foot up i am tied in at all times i usally saftey off when redirecting my climbing line and what i meant by akward was that i was used to the bridge and i kept untying my friction knot.it sounds pretty stupid but i kept forgeting about it being split tail so i just stuck with tail tying.by the way i use a screw locking carabiner on my climbing line i aint forgot to screw it shut yet,what does everyone have against them?

 

[moray]

.by the way i use a screw locking carabiner on my climbing line i aint forgot to screw it shut yet,what does everyone have against them?

Just that it is one more thing you have to remember, and maybe some day you won't. If an autolocker is closed, it is locked. Not true with yours.

If there was some significant convenience that came with the screw-lock biners, I would probably use them and pay the price of the small added risk, but I actually like the autolockers better...