Chain for cutting extreme hardwood, and saw

[cgraham]

The cutters on all 3 gauges, in each profile, are the same, in other words a cutter on a .325 chain in .050 is the same as one in .063. I would look at cutting as narrow a kerf as I could in that stuff, and with as short of a bar as I can get by with. IMHO, if you're staying with that size saw, 16" is ideal. I detest .325 chain, but run what you like in .050 if its handy.

Jeff: that's handy cutter info. I got my chains sorted out with a micrometer now, but I don't see the reason for 3 different guages in .325 (unless it's just "history"). It just seems to make life more complicated for manufacturer and consumer. Maybe there is a practical reason - I can't find it. Somebody here knows?

I agree the less kerf, the less sharpening. I don't really understand why wider kerfs are needed, unless on softwoods that swell when cut - but the chain is larger so what is the difference in clearance?

Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains.

A longer bar than my max 16" logs ensures that I get a full cut, and the extra length delays dulling very slightly. Any bar that projects uses very little energy. I use 18" (which will be driven by a 385xp - 3.7hp) - not enough length difference to argue about, plenty of power. You don't prefer to cut from both sides, do you? I don't know how much extra load is put on the saw and bar when the nose of the bar is buried, but the second cut is certainly easier.

My main objection to too long a bar on small work is that it is harder to stay clear of other logs, and danger of kickback from them is increased. Advantages (if you are a 1 saw man like me) - versatility, and greater reach.

Charlie

 

[Preston]

Well now, I've seen something here that should aughta get me called stupid. On my 034 I put a 20" bar and I have a chisel chain. The chisel cutting edge has squared edge. Here's the bad part. I've been sharpening the chain with a round 3/32 round file. Looks like I should be using a square cut bastard file. Man, if this is so,no wonder I've had so much of a problem for the last 20 years getting the saw to cut like I know it should. Non of these saw shop mechanics around here have ever said any different. Whenever I put on a new chain, wow do I go to town. It ends there.

Do I ever fill like a dummy. Tell me it ain't so, and don't lie to me.

pt

 

[8433jeff]

Well now, I've seen something here that should aughta get me called stupid. On my 034 I put a 20" bar and I have a chisel chain. The chisel cutting edge has squared edge. Here's the bad part. I've been sharpening the chain with a round 3/32 round file. Looks like I should be using a square cut bastard file. Man, if this is so,no wonder I've had so much of a problem for the last 20 years getting the saw to cut like I know it should. Non of these saw shop mechanics around here have ever said any different. Whenever I put on a new chain, wow do I go to town. It ends there.

Do I ever fill like a dummy. Tell me it ain't so, and don't lie to me.

pt

Files for a 3/8 chain are 11/64, or 3/16. Files for low profile 3/8's are 5/32. If you're filing correctly, the round file will sharpen even a square ground chain, and the question I have is are you filing the depth gauges at all, and correctly if so. Some file new chain to get it sharper, I'm not in that crowd but can get it back to close, if not better than new.

 

[8433jeff]

Jeff: that's handy cutter info. I got my chains sorted out with a micrometer now, but I don't see the reason for 3 different guages in .325 (unless it's just "history"). It just seems to make life more complicated for manufacturer and consumer. Maybe there is a practical reason - I can't find it. Somebody here knows?

-Longer bars should be thicker, in my opinion. People want to run same gauge throughout the fleet, and what others run so they are not the oddball. My 2 cents.


I agree the less kerf, the less sharpening. I don't really understand why wider kerfs are needed, unless on softwoods that swell when cut - but the chain is larger so what is the difference in clearance?

-A little extra clearance goes a long ways. In your case, the wood is dead so it shouldn't swell a lot during cutting. How the wood lies while cutting is another consideration-wood laying on other wood in a forestry situation I would want a bigger kerf. My wood is cut usually a tree at a time.


Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains.

-I would use what you have if it makes sense. I run 3/8's on everything but my 026, and when the bar was used up, I changed that over to 3/8's. Same with my JD CS56, it came with .325 and I used it, it wears 3/8's now and cuts as fast or faster. In my soft hardwoods (soft maple, basswood, more boxelder than I wanted but if they fall over, you clean them up) .325 was not faster. Of course it makes a difference if you have the one chain and bar, and they are used up, or a bunch of good chains.


A longer bar than my max 16" logs ensures that I get a full cut, and the extra length delays dulling very slightly. Any bar that projects uses very little energy. I use 18" (which will be driven by a 385xp - 3.7hp, not enough length difference to argue about, plenty of power. You don't prefer to cut from both sides, do you? I don't know how much extra load is put on the saw and bar when the nose of the bar is buried, but the second cut is certainly easier.

-I thought you cut with a 346, 16" on a 385 is for racing, not getting something done. Its always better to cut through, rather than bury the tip, in my opinion.


My main objection to too long a bar on small work is that it is harder to stay clear of other logs, and danger of kickback from them is increased. Advantages (if you are a 1 saw man like me) - versatility, and greater reach.
Charlie

-Yes, I agree.

 

[Preston]

Yeah Jeff..........I've cut the depth gauges down to a 32" below the two adjoining cutting tips. I've always cut by hand with a file and a gauge. I just never seem to get the chain cutting as good as it should. To what the new one cut's anyway.

Thanks for your reply.

pt

 

[8433jeff]

What size chain? What file? What are you using for a guide, gotta have a guide before you freehand, that is for the pros and no pro I know does it without a guide. A thirtysecond ain't much, try about .030 in softwood. One of them File-o-plates from Carlton is OK, I have a couple from Oregon but the hookup is from Huskavarna, a roller guide. Will have one soon...If you think its sharp, and you might be doing everything right, and its not feeding then the gauges are too high. Its a science, but not Saturn V rocket science, with the right tools.

 

[Orange Hill]

I really like .325 Stihl RM chain it holds up well in dry wood. I saw that you were looking for a safety chain. The RMC3 is the safety version of the RM/RMC and for a safety chain is cuts very well and is quite sooth running. I have been cutting storm fallen hardwood trees from last year. The oak is not so bad, it is the eucalyptus that is the problem as they have embedded sand and will throw sparks from the chain while cutting even after stripping the bark. A second problem with the blue gum bastards is the fibrous nature of the bark builds up in the bar groove and the nose sprocket. I always carry a 5-in-1 painters putty knife to clean out the groove, nose sprocket, and oil ports. I find I need to clean the bar several times a day to keep it lubing properly. Cedar also has a fibrous bark that may also be fouling your bar causing excessive heat. Also you can not use cheap bar oil in these woods. I was trying to use up some cheap oil that I picked up from Tractor Supply and it was way too thin and the bar and chain got really hot and I had to de-gunk the resin off the chain and bar. Stick with Husky, Stihl, or Motion Lotion quality summer weight heavy bodied tacky oils. Also be sure to flip your bar over every so often to maximize it's life. I also have a hard nose bar for extra fibrous/dirty wood. I would also recommend letting what ever saw you use to cool off after each tank of fuel because of your extreme duty cutting. You could use this time to touch up your chain and clean your bar. Also make sure your buddy tunes you new saw as all new saws come lean is stock form. A slightly rich saw will run cooler.

As a default it seems most Husky chains are .058 gauge, Stihl's tend to be .063 in .325 and usually .050 in 3/8". It is said that wider gauge chains carry more oil, and I think there is some truth in that. Stihl chains have larger oil grooves then most chains and I do like them better in dry wood because they also seem to have harder cutters.

Also time is running out on most of the current 3 series XP saws. You should really think about that 346XP is you want to stay in the 50cc saw range. Since you are cutting very hard dry wood chain lubrication is critical. I would recommend a pro saw over a land owner grade just for the extra level of oiling these saws generally put out.

 

[MCW]

Files for a 3/8 chain are 11/64, or 3/16. Files for low profile 3/8's are 5/32. If you're filing correctly, the round file will sharpen even a square ground chain, and the question I have is are you filing the depth gauges at all, and correctly if so. Some file new chain to get it sharper, I'm not in that crowd but can get it back to close, if not better than new.

File sizes used for 3/8" chain are 13/64" and 7/32"
Stihl recommends 13/64" and others recommend 7/32".

 

[tdi-rick]

[snip]

Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains.

[snip]

Charlie

.325 isn't as bad as everyone makes out.

Case in point, the Post Rip is the money event at Australian chainsaw races and everyone uses .325 chain on an 18"or so bar with either a 2100/3120 or 084/088/880 powerhead.

Some even use .325 chain in the speed (cross-cut) events, (although I don't believe they are the blokes winning) so the increased cutter numbers and smaller kerf may be an advantage in harder than nails timber.

 

[Preston]

The chain I'm using has for a depth guide a piece that looks kinda like a backwards cutting tooth. It's not just a little protrusion sticking up. There's a lot of metal to shape for the depth. I use the flat gauge for that part and one of those guides with a wooden handle for the cutting teeth. I believe the angle for the cut is 30 degrees. I don't do anything with this saw by guess. I'm the same way with torque wrenchs. They're made for a reason, so I use um for that reason.

pt

 

[cgraham]

Orange Hill, I appreciate the comments: good advice.

I plan to try the .325 Stihl RM chain as soon as I get a new saw. I have been without a saw for a week now but gotta do the research!

Not sure what you meant by "Also time is running out on most of the current 3 series XP saws. You should really think about that 346XP if you want to stay in the 50cc saw range." You mean don't get one because they are nearing obsolescence, or do buy it while still available???

The 386XP is popular, and in short supply right now due to high demand, I read. I don't think they are about to be discontinued - with no equivalent replacement in sight.

Actually I'm not looking for something in the 50cc range: I don't think that is the right way to look for a saw. I'm looking for a Husky in the 11 pound, 3.5 hp+ range. The only matching professional model happens to be the 346xp at 50cc. The new 562xp specs nice, but not here yet, no reports and way too expensive. It will replace the 357 I expect (also unaffordable).

Charlie

 

[BlackOakTreeServ]

Stihl makes a carbide chain, not sure what saws they'll fit, but should hold up the task your using it for.

Yes, what he said.......good for stumps, dirty roots, ect. ect.

 

[8433jeff]

The chain I'm using has for a depth guide a piece that looks kinda like a backwards cutting tooth. It's not just a little protrusion sticking up. There's a lot of metal to shape for the depth. I use the flat gauge for that part and one of those guides with a wooden handle for the cutting teeth. I believe the angle for the cut is 30 degrees. I don't do anything with this saw by guess. I'm the same way with torque wrenchs. They're made for a reason, so I use um for that reason.

pt

Sorry about the 11/64 and 3/16's earlier. 3/16's is for .325.
OK I'm betting its made by Oregon, should be stamped in the side, unless it has a big H, then its still made by Oregon for Huskaroo. Make sure you are filing from the inside out on the gauges, keep it sloped away from the cutter (not flat or sloped back) and a 1/32 ain't near enough. According to my pocket guide, the cutter is filed at a 25 degree angle, with a 10 degree upslope with a 7/32 file. I believe what you have is Vanguard chain, and its a great chain when new, but needs aggressive gauge work as it wears. 460 Woodchuck sent me some he square filed on a saw I traded for, and it cut like crazy. Its now hanging on a nail, awaiting the next project saw.

 

[RTK]

Actually I'm not looking for something in the 50cc range: I don't think that is the right way to look for a saw. I'm looking for something in the 11 pound, 3.5 hp+ range. The only matching professional model happens to be the 346xp at 50cc. The new 562xp specs nice, but not here yet, no reports and way too expensive. It will replace the 357 I expect (also unaffordable).

Charlie

The Dolmar 5105 is a nice saw at a good price that mets your specs. It would be worth considering.

 

[cgraham]

Yeah Jeff..........I've cut the depth gauges down to a 32" below the two adjoining cutting tips. I've always cut by hand with a file and a gauge. I just never seem to get the chain cutting as good as it should. To what the new one cut's anyway.
pt

Preston, have you read the thread referenced by tdi-Rick in post 28 above, on progressive filing depth guages ?


Charlie

 

[MCW]

.325 isn't as bad as everyone makes out.

Case in point, the Post Rip is the money event at Australian chainsaw races and everyone uses .325 chain on an 18"or so bar with either a 2100/3120 or 084/088/880 powerhead.

Some even use .325 chain in the speed (cross-cut) events, (although I don't believe they are the blokes winning) so the increased cutter numbers and smaller kerf may be an advantage in harder than nails timber.

Racing aside Rick get a few loops of .325", go find your nearest dead termite filled Yellow Box tree, run it side by side with 3/8", then tell me .325" is OK in that situation. It'll look like the leading edge has been smashed with a hammer in half the time of 3/8".

In green or cleaner wood fine, but when the going gets tough she won't hold up well at all compared to 3/8". The difference is like 3/8"LP compared to .325", or 3/8" to .404", or .404" compared to 3/4" (OK, the 3/4" analogy is a stretch)

 

[Preston]

Thanks Charlie.......I just read it, and re-read it. What an article. Now I gotta see if the chains I've bought over the years even match my drive sprocket. After reading the article I see I have not maintained the saw nor the chains like I should have. Do I have some checking to do. After reading the article I'm supprised the saw and chain haven't blow up in my face. And to think this saw is 22 years old with a damned old fool running it. And it still runs like a screaming banshee. The 035 AV's are pretty sturdy saws. I've never taken to saw in to a shop to be worked on, it's never needed it. If something broke, I fixed it. Reckon I need to have it look at. This is incredible.

Thanks Jeff and Charlie. You've been great, and patient to a 67 year old saw virgin.

pt

 

[8433jeff]

I never learned much when whoever was teaching was screaming at me. When they took me aside and said "hey, no no. This is how to do it" without causing a big scene, sometimes I took it to heart.

 

[cgraham]

Thanks Charlie.......I just read it, and re-read it. What an article. ... After reading the article I see I have not maintained the saw nor the chains like I should have. Do I have some checking to do... And to think this saw is 22 years old with a damned old fool running it.... Reckon I need to have it look at. This is incredible.

Thanks Jeff and Charlie. You've been great, and patient to a 67 year old saw virgin. pt

No problems mate.... Crikey, I'm getting infected!

I initiated this thread, which has turned out to be the most informative of any on any forum that I have ever read, thanks to the generosity and wisdom of some outstanding members. So if I can pass a gem on, received from Auzzie tdi-rick, it is the least I can do. Thank Rick!

My saw history and ignorance is much the same as yours, except this damned old fool has been doing it wrong for more like 40 years! :bang: It goes with being an occasional user. 72 is a bit late to learn to do it right, but better late than never as I'm buying a new saw!

I'm probably going to pull the trigger on a 386 XP this morning. Then I can order some gadgets and play with the chains, putting the new-won knowledge to work.

Good luck with your own experiments: why not post the results? If you start a new thread, please PM me.



Charlie

 

[Preston]

Thanks a big bunch Charlie.........I'll do just that.

pt