Chain Vice Comparison - Oregon 520-120 vs Oregon 511AX

[Ramcharger07]

What's your opinion the above Oregon vices?
I have a new 520-120. While the new vice self centers, it only grabs 1 link of the chain.
I haven't seen the older 511AX in person, it looks like it grabs more of the links.
What is the users opinion of the 2 vices, for you who have used them.
Is 1 better than the other?
More accurate?
Thank you,

 

[singinwoodwackr]

What's your opinion the above Oregon vices?
I have a new 520-120. While the new vice self centers, it only grabs 1 link of the chain.
I haven't seen the older 511AX in person, it looks like it grabs more of the links.
What is the users opinion of the 2 vices, for you who have used them.
Is 1 better than the other?
More accurate?
Thank you,

I’ve only used the 520, same as you so no help. It would be nice if the vice were a better design, however.

 

[Lightning Performance]

The auto grab is too far to one side when grinding new 404 cutters. It could be upgraded to the new Oregon vice but that only helps the chain rollover the inlet and outlet on the vice. Other than that the Tecomec has been much faster with autograb on the jolly star compared to a manual grab setup.

 

[Philbert]

The 511AX had some wear issues with very heavy users. Plastic shims, etc., had to be replaced. Not necessarily an issue for average users.

There were a few threads on it. I will link them if I find them.

Oregon / Tecomec likely wanted to avoid those issues again.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/511ax-vise.228345/
https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/oregon-511ax-vise-update.276361/
https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/511ax-repair-mod-and-similar-units.263497/
Philbert

 

[Ramcharger07]

Thank you for the info.
I just did my first chain. Angles were good, but the length between right and left cutters weren't the same, needed minor adjustment.
I've centered the vise with the wheel, so I imagine the vise must not pivot centered.
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks

 

[Philbert]

Chain Grinder Centering

Most full-sized chain grinders have some way to center the grinding wheel. But this changes as the wheel wears, or if you swap wheels.

A good thing to check periodically. But, best to have a way to compensate.

My method takes longer to read than to do. It becomes muscle memory:

- I grind all my Left cutters first;

- Rotate the vise and grind a test / sample Right cutter;

- Compare the sample Right cutter against any one of the Left cutters, for cutter length, gullet depth, angles, etc.



- Make any minor adjustments needed (this quickly becomes intuitive).

- Grind the remaining Right cutters.

I back off the tooth positioning dog and run the gullets on both sides, as needed.

Depth gauges require swapping the grinding wheel, so I often do these with a batch of sharpened loops.

Philbert

 

[Lightning Performance]

Chain Grinder Centering

Most full-sized chain grinders have some way to center the grinding wheel. But this changes as the wheel wears, or if you swap wheels.

A good thing to check periodically. But, best to have a way to compensate.

My method takes longer to read than to do. It becomes muscle memory:

- I grind all my Left cutters first;

- Rotate the vise and grind a test / sample Right cutter;

- Compare the sample Right cutter against any one of the Left cutters, for cutter length, gullet depth, angles, etc.

View attachment 1116303

- Make any minor adjustments needed (this quickly becomes intuitive).

- Grind the remaining Right cutters.

I back off the tooth positioning dog and run the gullets on both sides, as needed.

Depth gauges require swapping the grinding wheel, so I often do these with a batch of sharpened loops.

Philbert

Ditto especially for milling chains.

 

[sean donato]

Have a 511ax for years now, although I just use it for rocked chains or sharpening others chains. It does take a bit of upkeep with the self centering vice. Likes to be kept pretty clean too. Not hard to tell when it needs cleaned out. Don't think od rather have it over a different style of vice for what I do and how often I use it.

 

[fields_mj]

What's your opinion the above Oregon vices?
I have a new 520-120. While the new vice self centers, it only grabs 1 link of the chain.
I haven't seen the older 511AX in person, it looks like it grabs more of the links.
What is the users opinion of the 2 vices, for you who have used them.
Is 1 better than the other?
More accurate?
Thank you,

I'll preface my response with the fact that I haven't used either of those vices. In fact, I don't use a chain grinder either. My experience comes from working as a machinist, and using big, high dollar vices on mills and grinders.

In regards to grabbing 1 tooth vs grabbing multiple teeth, you REALLY only want to be grabbing the tooth you are grinding. The jaws of the vice can only securely grab on (at most) 2 locations, and that assumes that the moving jaw floats some, or has some play in it. On a mill or surface grinder, that's not the case. You only get to hold securely on 1 surface with those vices. If you're trying to mill or grind 2 different parts at the same time, and one of those parts is 0.0001" narrower than the other, you're not going to get nearly as much clamp force on that part, and there's a good chance that it's going to move on you. In a milling operation, that can do a lot of damage in a hurry. In a grinding application, it can shatter the grinding wheel which can be deadly. There are tricks that can be used to secure multiple parts in the vice so you can machine them all at the same time, but the point here is that the vice won't do it on its own.

A chain vice will have a lot more slop/play than the vices that I'm talking about. The extra play allows moving jaw to rotate slightly and push against the widest 2 points. If you're jaw is only wide enough to grab 2 links, you're fine. Otherwise, its a roll of the dice as to whether the tooth you're grinding on is one of the two widest that the vice is actually holding on.

 

[sean donato]

I'll preface my response with the fact that I haven't used either of those vices. In fact, I don't use a chain grinder either. My experience comes from working as a machinist, and using big, high dollar vices on mills and grinders.

In regards to grabbing 1 tooth vs grabbing multiple teeth, you REALLY only want to be grabbing the tooth you are grinding. The jaws of the vice can only securely grab on (at most) 2 locations, and that assumes that the moving jaw floats some, or has some play in it. On a mill or surface grinder, that's not the case. You only get to hold securely on 1 surface with those vices. If you're trying to mill or grind 2 different parts at the same time, and one of those parts is 0.0001" narrower than the other, you're not going to get nearly as much clamp force on that part, and there's a good chance that it's going to move on you. In a milling operation, that can do a lot of damage in a hurry. In a grinding application, it can shatter the grinding wheel which can be deadly. There are tricks that can be used to secure multiple parts in the vice so you can machine them all at the same time, but the point here is that the vice won't do it on its own.

A chain vice will have a lot more slop/play than the vices that I'm talking about. The extra play allows moving jaw to rotate slightly and push against the widest 2 points. If you're jaw is only wide enough to grab 2 links, you're fine. Otherwise, its a roll of the dice as to whether the tooth you're grinding on is one of the two widest that the vice is actually holding on.

Slight different application. Lot more stress surface grinding something then taking a few thousandths off a cutter. Think about the different approach angles and the amount of friction generated by each process. It's easy to see that the chain grinder can get away with a lot less clamp force then a surface grinder or mill, over "more" (using that term lightly.) Surfside area. The 511ax grabs ahold of about 5 cutters. Sure one could be a bit looser then the others, but so long as it has some sort of clamping force in it, it's gonna be OK.

 

[fields_mj]

Slight different application. Lot more stress surface grinding something then taking a few thousandths off a cutter. Think about the different approach angles and the amount of friction generated by each process. It's easy to see that the chain grinder can get away with a lot less clamp force then a surface grinder or mill, over "more" (using that term lightly.) Surfside area. The 511ax grabs ahold of about 5 cutters. Sure one could be a bit looser then the others, but so long as it has some sort of clamping force in it, it's gonna be OK.

Fair point. I learned about this issue the hard way, very early on so I'm probably overly sensitive to it on something like a chain grinder.

 

[Sidecarflip]

I'll preface my response with the fact that I haven't used either of those vices. In fact, I don't use a chain grinder either. My experience comes from working as a machinist, and using big, high dollar vices on mills and grinders.

In regards to grabbing 1 tooth vs grabbing multiple teeth, you REALLY only want to be grabbing the tooth you are grinding. The jaws of the vice can only securely grab on (at most) 2 locations, and that assumes that the moving jaw floats some, or has some play in it. On a mill or surface grinder, that's not the case. You only get to hold securely on 1 surface with those vices. If you're trying to mill or grind 2 different parts at the same time, and one of those parts is 0.0001" narrower than the other, you're not going to get nearly as much clamp force on that part, and there's a good chance that it's going to move on you. In a milling operation, that can do a lot of damage in a hurry. In a grinding application, it can shatter the grinding wheel which can be deadly. There are tricks that can be used to secure multiple parts in the vice so you can machine them all at the same time, but the point here is that the vice won't do it on its own.

A chain vice will have a lot more slop/play than the vices that I'm talking about. The extra play allows moving jaw to rotate slightly and push against the widest 2 points. If you're jaw is only wide enough to grab 2 links, you're fine. Otherwise, its a roll of the dice as to whether the tooth you're grinding on is one of the two widest that the vice is actually holding on.

Been my experience with a mag chuck a loose part will usually fly off the chuck face and impale itself in the closest wall. On my big Kent auto feed, I've launched parts in the past but I've never shattered a wheel. It's always an experience you don't want to repeat. Usually I'll spark the wheel on the part before setting any depth anyway. Mills are another story. I've totally destroyed the insets on a carbide face mill before but the destruction process is a lot slower than on a surface grinder. That stuff always pisses me off because I own the machines and I just ruined a customers part and tooling, especially insert tooling isn't cheap and I'm paying for that as well but being the boss I still expect my employees to be more careful, the 'Old Man' (me) can do it but I don't want my employees doing it. Kind of like the new 37 grand plasma table I just bought a few weeks ago. Loaded a sheet (4x8) of number 1 polished stainless in it and had the X axis set wrong in the computer program and the torch head cut a nice line the full width of the sheet, smack dab in the middle before I could abort the program. That really pissed me off. Today, polished stainless is very expensive to turn to scrap. I( can save it for another job. Problem is, I ordered just enough for this job and the lead time on polishes stainless is huge and the customer is expecting the cut job asap and I still have to TIG weld the parts together. Oh well, I'll make up some sort of lie to placate him, I hope. Life in the country job shop....

 

[Sidecarflip]

Not sure if anyone on here is aware but you can tighten the parallel vice plates on any Oregon or Tecomec chain grinder by removing the two machine screws and nuts (one at each end of the vise) and remove the spacer that is captured between the plates and remove some material from it (carefully). When you reduce the width of the spacer it allows the side plates to close tighter and grip the loop tighter as well. My only caution to anyone doing that is only remove a tiny bit of material from the spacer and fit and retest the plates and see if they are gripping satisfactory. If you remove too much and tighten the tighten the machine screws up, you won't be able to get the loop in between the plates anymore. It's strictly trial and test.

I'd use a flat bastard cut file to remove the metal and make sure you keep the faces square as well as those spacers determine the plate width when the vise is open as well as closed. Had that issue myself and that is how I addressed it. I use 2 grinders myself, one to grind the teeth and the other to grind the rakers if necessary, that way I don't have to change out wheels because wheel changes on the Oregon or Tecomec grinders is a PITA.

 

[fields_mj]

Been my experience with a mag chuck a loose part will usually fly off the chuck face and impale itself in the closest wall. On my big Kent auto feed, I've launched parts in the past but I've never shattered a wheel. It's always an experience you don't want to repeat. Usually I'll spark the wheel on the part before setting any depth anyway. Mills are another story. I've totally destroyed the insets on a carbide face mill before but the destruction process is a lot slower than on a surface grinder. That stuff always pisses me off because I own the machines and I just ruined a customers part and tooling, especially insert tooling isn't cheap and I'm paying for that as well but being the boss I still expect my employees to be more careful, the 'Old Man' (me) can do it but I don't want my employees doing it. Kind of like the new 37 grand plasma table I just bought a few weeks ago. Loaded a sheet (4x8) of number 1 polished stainless in it and had the X axis set wrong in the computer program and the torch head cut a nice line the full width of the sheet, smack dab in the middle before I could abort the program. That really pissed me off. Today, polished stainless is very expensive to turn to scrap. I( can save it for another job. Problem is, I ordered just enough for this job and the lead time on polishes stainless is huge and the customer is expecting the cut job asap and I still have to TIG weld the parts together. Oh well, I'll make up some sort of lie to placate him, I hope. Life in the country job shop....

My issue was because the part was a little tall and a bit narrow. I got myself out of whack and fed in from the wrong direction. The wheel sucked it in and tipped it over shattering the wheel. I let the shop supervisor know I'd be back to clean up the mess, but I needed to go sit down for a minute. I think his response was something along the lines of "You might want to sit for at least 2."

 

[Sidecarflip]

No shop and I'm the owner of this one so I'm the foreman/supervisor and I take the heat for mistakes and have 2 employees that rib me about stuff like that. I'm always careful to 'spark' any piece I'm grinding and I too was grinding a tall, narrow piece of hardened tool steel. What I usually do is either use 1-2-3 blocks or 2-4-6 blocks as backers, stops but I got lax and bam. Once bitten twice shy they say...right. Problem is, you shatter a wheel, you have to check the TIR of the spindle and then static balance a new wheel (least I do) and the dress it which takes some time. I didn't have a ton of magnetism holding the piece so when it took off, it really didn't hurt much, except my pride. Actually, it was a Bandit Wood Chipper anvil and it was already squared. I was just finishing the edge. Speaking of Bandits, saw two semi loads of them heading south on Tuesday.

 

[fields_mj]

That shop built molds (and other things) for our injection molding business, a lot of which was the firestone air ride suspension pistons for heavy trucks. Once I cleaned everything up, the guys went through the machine to make sure everything was okay. Swapping and dressing the wheel was something that was done almost every time someone ran one of the surface grinders (we had 4), so loosing the wheel itself wasn't a big deal. Once they confirmed the spindle was okay, I mounted and dressed a new wheel and re-surfaced the chuck and it was ready to go again.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Regarding the clamp/vice on these grinders…
it is only the drive link that gets clamped so any slop in the chain will allow movement of the cutter. New chains have less slop than old ones. Has anyone figured out how to secure the actual cutter?

 

[Philbert]

It’s probably in the thread linked below, but people have suggested pulling back slightly, on the chain, against the positioning stop, and pressing down on the cutter, when clamping the vise.

I do this now, automatically, and don’t have problems with moving cutters.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/
Philbert

 

[singinwoodwackr]

It’s probably in the thread linked below, but people have suggested pulling back slightly, on the chain, against the positioning stop, and pressing down on the cutter, when clamping the vise.

I do this now, automatically, and don’t have problems with moving cutters.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/
Philbert

Tried that…hey still move

 

[Philbert]

Tried that…hey still move

Which model grinder?

On my 511A, the vise clamping cam eventually wore a recess into the front clamping plate, so it would not hold drive links as tightly.

It was possible (on this model) to shift the plates over, swap them, etc., or replace them, to get ‘new’ performance again.

I tried the ‘trick’ of pulling out the 2 spacers and filing them down a bit, but ended up replacing them.

Philbert