woodchux
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OK, I do this alot as a second tie in while cutting, and was wondering if it is safe?
Cinching with Rope Snap
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Climb020
ArboristSite Operative
I had asked the same question just a few weeks ago when it came to spar work. from what I was told, as long as the diamter of the tree isn't too small the clip or biner is fine.
begleytree
H. sapiens moderatus
as a second tie in/redirect I think it's fine. That is what you stated, a 2nd tie in point, right?
-Ralph
-Ralph
woodchux
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yep, second tie in. I do this alot on pine trees. As I come to limbs I'll throw the rope snap around the trunk, clip it back to itself, make my cuts, unclip, climb up. It's very fast.
Leveraging is taking a non-flexible device and applying non-inline force. The greater the stiffness X the greater the length X the more perpendicular the force to the device; gives leveraging. As pictured the snap doesn't have inline force but rather more perpendicular force conducted through it. The smaller the host mount, the more this effect will increase/ the more you try to bend snap.
For we have not just inline pull or push, but a tourquing of rotational force setting up 3 regions at 'bend'. We have a compression side, a reach from compression to tension (giving leveraged distance) and a tension side now formed in the metal. In other words the device is compromised; not all of it is pulling (compressed zone is push, not supportive pull, 'neutral' zone between tension and compression gives no pull either; just leveraged/ multiplying distance between tension and compression;the greater the distance/thickness, the greater the leveraging). This same scenario is true for ropes on a tight bight, rope is pull only device, so the inner/compressed range of line is 'out of service' for our tensioned force support requirements. Also, in rope the distance from the inside compressed part of arc, to the tensioned part of arc is just leveraged distance, multiplying the amount of arc the outer fibers are making/ the more distance, the more the outer fibers are stretched. Only the most stretched fibers are carrying the tensioned load. Similarly, in hinging; the part of wood closest to the lean is compressed, the farther stretched fibers are the supporting/tensioned fibers. The tension force must equal the lean force; or tree moves to make up difference; to maintain equality in equation. The compressed portions in this arching/leveraging are therefore double loaded, as they like any other pivot or pulley are carrying both sides of force to them; here- the load of the lean and the matching loading of the tensioned fibers/metal
Also, usually that snap is holding half your weight, inline in DdRT. Presently it is more SRT, bearing full weight, then compromised by rope around tree and then pulled at non-inline angle (2 different leveraged angles; 1 by tree circumference and 1 by the angle of pull by you). These are triple multiplying changes against your setup/gear. A krab, screwlink etc. would be as bad by same theory; but if shorter, would be leveraged less.
i'd suggest the RunningBowline or other soft link be maintained around the circumference; only use metal on straight runs; unless intentionally leveraging with bar or wrench. Choke a sling and hook to it with snap(or just direct to saddle; even make more of a half hitch preceding would be better 'running snap'; but not perfect. Take a Round Turn instead of Simple/Single Turn and serve back to saddle. These are more of my static/lanyard strategies, for staying in place/ close quarters for same scenario with lanyard. Defining Lifeline as a large adjustable loop/lanyard.
Another trick is to choke sling over line, and place krab in back to reeve Lifeline (or lanyard) thru; then back to saddle. Now it is adjsutable lifeline/lanyard that you have half weight on snap; it is pulled inline, not arched and adjustable.
i think it is important to realize these same patterns in everything; work with them correctly and see them in imagery. You will learn faster; if everything in ropes is a lesson in wood fiber too; to l-earn from and a comparative/confirming analysis that offers insight at different angles! After all it is all exactly the same, but different. Follow the rules; get the feel and understanding from that; so you can carry the lessons to other things without borders; forcing you to learnt he same thing 2-3-4x etc. in different materials; look for the linking commonali-ties that bind these things together!
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
"Nature, to be commanded; MUST be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to normal programming; already in progress!
For we have not just inline pull or push, but a tourquing of rotational force setting up 3 regions at 'bend'. We have a compression side, a reach from compression to tension (giving leveraged distance) and a tension side now formed in the metal. In other words the device is compromised; not all of it is pulling (compressed zone is push, not supportive pull, 'neutral' zone between tension and compression gives no pull either; just leveraged/ multiplying distance between tension and compression;the greater the distance/thickness, the greater the leveraging). This same scenario is true for ropes on a tight bight, rope is pull only device, so the inner/compressed range of line is 'out of service' for our tensioned force support requirements. Also, in rope the distance from the inside compressed part of arc, to the tensioned part of arc is just leveraged distance, multiplying the amount of arc the outer fibers are making/ the more distance, the more the outer fibers are stretched. Only the most stretched fibers are carrying the tensioned load. Similarly, in hinging; the part of wood closest to the lean is compressed, the farther stretched fibers are the supporting/tensioned fibers. The tension force must equal the lean force; or tree moves to make up difference; to maintain equality in equation. The compressed portions in this arching/leveraging are therefore double loaded, as they like any other pivot or pulley are carrying both sides of force to them; here- the load of the lean and the matching loading of the tensioned fibers/metal
Also, usually that snap is holding half your weight, inline in DdRT. Presently it is more SRT, bearing full weight, then compromised by rope around tree and then pulled at non-inline angle (2 different leveraged angles; 1 by tree circumference and 1 by the angle of pull by you). These are triple multiplying changes against your setup/gear. A krab, screwlink etc. would be as bad by same theory; but if shorter, would be leveraged less.
i'd suggest the RunningBowline or other soft link be maintained around the circumference; only use metal on straight runs; unless intentionally leveraging with bar or wrench. Choke a sling and hook to it with snap(or just direct to saddle; even make more of a half hitch preceding would be better 'running snap'; but not perfect. Take a Round Turn instead of Simple/Single Turn and serve back to saddle. These are more of my static/lanyard strategies, for staying in place/ close quarters for same scenario with lanyard. Defining Lifeline as a large adjustable loop/lanyard.
Another trick is to choke sling over line, and place krab in back to reeve Lifeline (or lanyard) thru; then back to saddle. Now it is adjsutable lifeline/lanyard that you have half weight on snap; it is pulled inline, not arched and adjustable.
i think it is important to realize these same patterns in everything; work with them correctly and see them in imagery. You will learn faster; if everything in ropes is a lesson in wood fiber too; to l-earn from and a comparative/confirming analysis that offers insight at different angles! After all it is all exactly the same, but different. Follow the rules; get the feel and understanding from that; so you can carry the lessons to other things without borders; forcing you to learnt he same thing 2-3-4x etc. in different materials; look for the linking commonali-ties that bind these things together!
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
"Nature, to be commanded; MUST be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to normal programming; already in progress!
Kneejerk Bombas
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I agree, it's not the best. You don't want a problem when you're talking about life support. Side loading snaps and biners is bad.The snap is not designed for side bending forces but with it's 5,000 lbs. plus strength rating I bet it holds 9 times out of 10.
I know several people who rig a biner like that. I do it myself on occasion but I prefer using a running bowline.
For some reason rock climbers are much more disciplined when it comes to safely and properly using equipment. They'd freak if they saw what some of us fools do in the trees.
If you break this little rule and that little rule, pretty soon you're free climbing, spiking on trims, and having unprotected sex with hookers.
soutz
ArboristSite Member
as a second rope in probably fine,all science aside good to see you protecting yourself with back ups. have you tried a friction saver in stead. this would allow you to decend and acend from the 2nd roping point,in effect double crotching.good on you for asking the question this is how we all learn.:biggrinbounce2: :biggrinbounce2: :biggrinbounce2:
clearance
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Good stuff Mike, happy new year.
Jim1NZ
ArboristSite Guru
Hahaha
Its not something anyone would recommend but in certain circumstances it can be very beneficial.
Can you guys tell me why you climb on those snap lock biners? What are the advantages, and dont tell me they are quicker.
Its not something anyone would recommend but in certain circumstances it can be very beneficial.
Can you guys tell me why you climb on those snap lock biners? What are the advantages, and dont tell me they are quicker.
Kneejerk Bombas
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By rope snap. I mean double auto locking aluminum rope snaps. They open and close fast and easy. The only place I use them is lanyard end, climbing rope end, and since they work so well with gloved hands, I've been using them with the 3000 to 5000 pound slings I carry for lowering operations.
I girth hitch a snap to each sling to quickly hang a 4" CMI aluminum pulley or for the end of the bull rope.
The ground crew appreciates the ease and speed they can unclip and clip to the end of the bull rope.
The only place I absolutely would not like to loose them is lanyard end. I snap and unsnap hundreds of times a day, there is no way a ball lock or push and twist biner would work with gloved (or ungloved for that matter) hands as well as a good rope snap.
I girth hitch a snap to each sling to quickly hang a 4" CMI aluminum pulley or for the end of the bull rope.
The ground crew appreciates the ease and speed they can unclip and clip to the end of the bull rope.
The only place I absolutely would not like to loose them is lanyard end. I snap and unsnap hundreds of times a day, there is no way a ball lock or push and twist biner would work with gloved (or ungloved for that matter) hands as well as a good rope snap.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Here we go (from Sherrill Tree):
Jim1NZ
ArboristSite Guru
I can most defiantly see a clear advantage with gloved hands.
We had a experienced student fall and hurt himself very badly some years ago now which forced a review and any use of this style of biner banned for climbing use. There are a few theory's of what happened exactly and there is know way to rule out human error of course.
Too excessive do you think?
We had a experienced student fall and hurt himself very badly some years ago now which forced a review and any use of this style of biner banned for climbing use. There are a few theory's of what happened exactly and there is know way to rule out human error of course.
Too excessive do you think?
woodchux
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I just picked up a cambium saver last friday. I do like the idea of being able to bail out on drt if needed.
Kneejerk Bombas
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I dunno. I leave that up to ANSI, the standards we work under. They say OK, I say OK.
If anybody gives me reason that a standard is flawed, and I can't refute it, then it changes my mind.
I know that doesn't help, but that's the best I can do.
arboralliance
ArboristSite Operative
Simple...
Use two biners instead...
Use two biners instead...
JohN Dee
ArboristSite Operative
It's about whatever works best for you and what's going to keep you safe.
Myself, when i'm up a palm most times for my second tie-in I tie a Blake's around the palm and clip the other end to my harness. I choose the Blake's for the hard lock off. I've never slid down a palm but if it were to happen I would imagine it would be extremely painful with all the splinters and scratches on my face for starters...
I can't see the second latch on the back of that clip, is it a single or double action woodchux?
Myself, when i'm up a palm most times for my second tie-in I tie a Blake's around the palm and clip the other end to my harness. I choose the Blake's for the hard lock off. I've never slid down a palm but if it were to happen I would imagine it would be extremely painful with all the splinters and scratches on my face for starters...
I can't see the second latch on the back of that clip, is it a single or double action woodchux?
Kneejerk Bombas
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I don't climb palms here, but don't you take a full wrap around the spar and then back to your saddle?
Ekka
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On the kinny ones, perhaps alex palms but it slows you down trying to advance it.
If I'm doing a TD I take two flip lines and cinch one off as this guy does (that ones attached to centre D). On the way up I just have it a little slack.
If I'm cleaning I have a lifeline so I can abseil back down. On the way up I just have a running bowline with my blakes cicnched, a little loose so I can advance it.
I prefer the two flip lines for a TD as they are wire cored and you can cinch up much closer to stuff than when you have a prussik, also it's better for throwing that snap around the head and over fronds. Some big heads you have to throw over a few fronds and get up in there ... sort of cut your way.
This is one of those debate-able things on right/wrong etc. I personally think as a back up it's OK and dont have too much slack on it, but if you are going to make a habit of it and use that flip line as a SRT method of getting around a tree you better swap it for a biner.
Yes, some guys throw it out to a branch, click it back on itself then hang off it as their primary ... not me.
If I'm doing a TD I take two flip lines and cinch one off as this guy does (that ones attached to centre D). On the way up I just have it a little slack.
If I'm cleaning I have a lifeline so I can abseil back down. On the way up I just have a running bowline with my blakes cicnched, a little loose so I can advance it.
I prefer the two flip lines for a TD as they are wire cored and you can cinch up much closer to stuff than when you have a prussik, also it's better for throwing that snap around the head and over fronds. Some big heads you have to throw over a few fronds and get up in there ... sort of cut your way.
This is one of those debate-able things on right/wrong etc. I personally think as a back up it's OK and dont have too much slack on it, but if you are going to make a habit of it and use that flip line as a SRT method of getting around a tree you better swap it for a biner.
Yes, some guys throw it out to a branch, click it back on itself then hang off it as their primary ... not me.
Jim1NZ
ArboristSite Guru
Instead of doing this with your DRT set up i think its a much better idea to use your lanyard on center D, provides better positioning as well as fall arrest. Even if you set up your lanyard D to D and have your rope there as well its better than to the side D's, although things can get cluttered.
No matter the circumstances i always take my rope and prussic set up.
No matter the circumstances i always take my rope and prussic set up.
