Climbing large dead pines

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mikey

ArboristSite Operative
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Hello everyone,I need some advise.I have removed many pine trees.But,recently due pine beetles and the lack of rainfall this year in my area,it seems all the trees I am to remove are dead.Some have been dead for a while(all needles gone) and are huge.These tower above all others and will have to be lowered in sections.I don"t have the experience that some of you have so I kindly ask, what are your unwritten rules concerning climbing huge dead(for a while) pine tress?I've had the bark break away with my spikes and scared the bajesus out of me.Thanks Mikey
 
I need a road trip! I climb dead pines weekly here in Tally fl.. I will not say that they are safe,but in my experience I've never had a problem. You have to kick the bark around in order to gaff them,what a pain. Experience is the best tool for these type of trees.
 
if the bark is peeling try to pull the bark off as you go up and look for cracks. vertcal cracks are not to bad. its the horizontal ones that will hurt you. if the tree's are close together go up the biggest one first and go as high as you feel comfortable tie in. pick a crotch or hang a pulley and useing a pole saw or throw a rope and tie off the top of the other tree. you can either stay up there or drop back down and bottom cut the other tree. as long as its butt heavy it will work fine. i took down a 70 ft ginko in this manner once but i had a huge sycamore to rope it from. are there any other live tree's near by you could tie into, buildings etc? if your not comfortable in climbing them, just walk away. theres no shame in walking from a tree. when i'm going up a dead tree as i go up it i try to rock it . by the way it rocks it gives me an idea of how strong it is, it builds my confidence as i go up. see how far your spikes are sinking in. if there sinking all the way in then you know the wood is real punky and then its up to you to make the decision. if there are cracks near the base have some one watch them as you go up to see if they spread. some tree's are just unclimbable, then its time for a bucket or crane. some times if a dead tree is unascessable by a crane you have to tell the customer there will be some damage. go as high as you can and dump it. if not walk away while you still can.
 
dead pines

If they have been dead for a year or less should not pose a problem for removal.work your way up removing limbs on your way.when you reach top or where you feel comfortable put a pull line if necessary,and blow the top out. if you still feel uncomfortable doing this rent a crane.try to get several removals in the area to warrant the expense. Kenny
 
I climb dead pines a lot too. I would need to see just how bad it was and what kind of targets there were around it. if the bark is coming loose, then pull it off as you ascend. If your gaffs start kicking out it's time to rethink the job. I would also be careful about rigging large pieces off a dead tree. When they get really bad I will tie into another tree if they are close enough.

Can you post pics of the tree and surrounding area? That would help everyone on giving advice. Personally I would need to see the tree for myself.
 
the best is when the home owner girdles it then waits till it dead a few years to call. then they say i thought it would be cheaper if its dead.
 
Elevate the price, period.

My experience with pine-beetle killed trees is that they rot much faster than other pines for several reasons.

Everyone's right about ripping bark off, make certain you're using tree spikes instead of pole lengths and guage 'em for sharpness. If you see a yellowing pine, it's worth the effort to ring the bell and inform the homeowner that it needs removal, leave a bid and encourage them to shop around A.S.A.P., 'cause the price goes up when the needles come off.

There are no industry standards that cover methods, every tree's location and condition presents various problems. Use skill, foresight, several groundies and four hanks of bull rope, and CAUTION. Assume it's going to fail at any time and have contingencies. Bucket if possible, crane if enormous and accessable, cancel all other work and hit hit it in the morning, after a night of planning while you sleep. Hit it slow and pray beforehand, no matter what your religious habits are.
 
Here are a couple of things that you can do that are hardly ever mentioned.

With your throwline, set a rope high in the tree and choke the pull rope. Put a load on the anchor line with a come along or other mechanical advantage. Look at the trunk flare to see how the root plate lifts. If only the trunk moves soil and not the root plate it might mean that the roots aren't holding any more. Caution! Move the rope around to the four cardinal points.

Again, use the throwline to set at least three guy out lines in the tree. Think of it as a tent pole. You'll need secure anchors too. Either solid trees or some kind of ground anchor. Take a look through this Army manual for ground anchors:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/5-125/fm5-125.htm


If there are two solid trees nearby you could set a line between the two trees with a pulley on the line to use as a floating false crotch. Just remember that this rigging puts huge loads on the trees that you're rigging from.

When you're wrecking out the tree, take small pieces and reduce any shock loads to the tree.

Tom
 
I've done hundreds of dead pines, especially in the last year. Stay close to the trunk, reducing side loads (pretend you are on a ladder, don't swing or lean waaaayyyy out any more than necessary). Crotches can be 10 times stronger than the limbs coming out from them, step in the crotches against the trunk instead of 10" out on the limb. Dead pines can be very brittle, usually not giving any warning if the limb you are standing on breaks. Maintain 3 point contact with the tree as much as possible, stay tied in with 2 separate points. The trunk is usually more than strong enough to hold you and some light rigging, but do not trust limbs especially smaller ones.

Most are quite easy, like a telephone pole with limbs. The one advantage to dead pines is the lack of sap. And lighter limbs are easier to rig as well.
 
Experience is the way to go, too many diffrent situations.

Seperate (from removal tree ) support anchor strategies for lines ie. using throw line to set lines in other trees for rigging and lifeline. Lifeline must be close, rigging line can stretch across yard to high support, that takes lots of stress off line redirected through host tree for rigging. An upper support at same height as another carries 1/2 the load, get a real nice, stong, majestic , high oak in the yard. Put a rigging line in a vertical spar of oak, higher than all the other rigging points for pines, redirect it from oak support around, if angle of line is down from oak support, more than 1/2 the force of rigging is off removal tree! Then be careful anyway, just more confident.

Consider which trees look hardest/ most dangerous, and make no moves removing other trees etc. that would make them harder; sometimes take the top out of a med. strong key tree; leave spar standing to rig out other stuff more positively cuz that spar has just been relievd of x pounds that it is used to holding. When rigging from skinny spar to any spar high beware of them being draw together in spring when loaded!

Vertical crax can be bound in spar to get back to about a non-splintering/ shifting pillar. Horizontals are tricky, not very trustworthy, tie in below them sometimes!

Get as much weight out as smooth and quick as possible, making cuts that don't jerk on the tree, especially until you cut out 2x your body weight free. Develoop style for handling difrent types of situations that as you cut it doesn't jerk on any tree, any time; when you are in dead pine, that alone (cutting free limbs with no pull on tree) can make all the diffrence in the world, very simply. Look for weak and strong axises of direction to rig into on supports.

Consider rake trick (http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4754)and drop what you can without climbing, but not throwing away a key, stronger tree to rig others from. If top is so brittle it will crumble/flex/give, it generally won't hurt a rock.... so you can allow for that in stick trick measurement. Use stick trick to see where to top and minimize how high you have to climb in red zone. If you top anything, eliminate as much holding wood as safe from sides of backcut in precutting, so you can come thru fast and get clean , early seperation, that pushes off down ito spar, rather than pulling/ pushing across, leveraging at its weakest axis of strength.

Work on a calm day, that the tree wasn't really shook hard just the day before, re-inspect soundness on day of werk. Stay centerd to trunk, except maybe to lean some to counter rigging pull with your own bodyweight as cantilever; always moving smoothly. Break pieces off with polesaw if ya can, nickel and diming what ever weight out you can. Look not to destablilize a tree by taking biggest weight early, and have more shake the rest of the time. Run rigging line through diffrent strong areas of the tree about level of last anchor before load, so as to spread out force of rigging. Bigger pieces might wait till near last, as each support will have load taken off of it; making for more positive support.

Pine borers can seriously disable a tree quickly weakening its structure, especially one that lightning boiled the water out of! i think pine resin is more electrically conductive or something than water based trees, down here in thunder alley, we call'em lightning rods. Especially 6' from thin metal strip along roof line, giving very nice electrical access to home! People will say they all just died weeks ago; look for fresh dust/ resin; considering each tree seperately for structure, especially in only connection, anchoring to ground!

Be careful, remember it is easier to walk away before you're dead!

P.S.Dang 2 guys got done before me that time!
 
Thanks everybody,I don't have a digitial camera yet.Heres a little more info.The worst tree is in an elderly retired ladies back yard(small).The tree is approx 125-150 'tall and 48 "dia at base.She told me the tree was struck by lightning 1 year ago.There is so much shaving/dust around the base I thought someone had been cutting on it with a saw.All other trees in yard are small -Jap maples, small magnolias etc. flower beds all around.All other large pines,I removed about 3 years ago. The tree could damage 5 different houses depending which way it fell.The lady is an old customer and tells of how she has lost all her savings in the stock market....After the weather cools,I'm going back to look.If the tree is standing and my courage shows up,we'llsee.This one might be out of my league.
 
Good points all.
Have you considerred speed lining?
The object here is to reduce shock load more than move the work. It is especially helpful if your ground support isn't relaible for letting work run.
Use a seperate tree as a high anchor point if possible or support tree you're in as per spidy's diagrams. It's important to keep slack/stretch in line, allowing bend in line as work falls, so as to avoid the "bowstring" effect, which can put huge force on the rope and anchors if speedline stays very straight. If you can avoid putting a control line on the tree you're in, do so.
Also when felling, use retainer lines where necessary to control fall even when hinge wood can't be trusted...
And like Oakwilt says... pray.
It really helps the job go smoothly.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
Lots of good advice and info! One thing that hasn't been mentioned-In my experience on lots of dead pines(but 90% one species-Ponderosa- in one region-the West) the sapwood will decay before the heart wood. If the wood under the bark is solid and there is no evidence of instability due to root decay then I don't fear climbing them unduly. The dry wood handles a lot easier in fact. But like others said-be careful about trusting limbs.:)
 
150 foot dead Pine in a small back yard...hmmm...

Tom's idea about guying makes sense, but it'll be hard, and how you going to get that top bombed through the guys without hitting them?
There will be the issue of ropes, you'll need three 150 guy ropes, plus rigging and climbing ropes.

Spyders comment that dead wood can be stronger is, well, bad. Maybe down in FL pine gets stronger after it dies, here in WI pines quickly begin to rot, fastest at the base because of the moisture. If the bark is loose, I wouldn't climb the tree without guys, and even then with extreme caution.

This job calls for a crane. Two guys could work from a manbasket, cut and chuck from the top down, in a short time. This would be so much safer and faster than climbing that dead old thing.
Crane rentals are a little pricey but could still be the cheapest way to get the job done.

By the way, her lack of money is not your problem.
 
MM-MM-Mike you are disagreeing with me? :eek:

Dead and decayed are 2 diffrent things, of course decayed is weaker. We build homes from dead wood here............!:D

Actually there is a whole school of thought to this logical twist (dead is stronger but less flexible), what i quoted here is from my own actual experience, reading others experience and touch of schooling!

Length of guy lines will depend on where (height) you guy it in at, need more than hitch to ground for 3/1 tightenings incorporating host line into "truckers hitch" (3/1).

Seperate life line support whether from another (safe) tree, bucket or crane is optimal. As is experienced man for assessing just how compromised the situation is.
 
We don't get Pines that big around here. How would you move/dispose of material?
Sounds like something has to give here. That tree is just getting more dangerous every day. It's a balancing act between taking care of yourself, not giving your work away, and your resposibility to serve the community. Think of yourself as the knight in shining armour and the tree as a dragon holding the community hostage.
So let's think ouside the box...
Maybe she could get a tax write off on the loss of the tree... and get some cash for you. Anyone know the law specifics here?
Is it possible to sacrafice or move a flower bed.. then lower the small stuff in there and bomb the wood?
Maybe just take out the top and save the big wood for when the stock market turns aroud.
Maybe she has something to trade or barter with you.
And then again it might just be better to walk away. You know the answers.. just ask yourself the right questions. Trust your gut instinct. Take some quiet time and play out both scenarios in your mind.. then tune into and compare your body's feelings.. You'll know.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
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Hi Daniel,If I could get this tree on the ground safely,hauling it off is no problem.This lady is nice but has her unmarried daughter and grand child living with her.She claims to be hurting finanicailly.She called me because the work I did before for her was "a great price".She is afraid if the tree( which is clearly dead for a while) falls and damages the neighbors property/house , she is liable.I want to help her out,Its not the money.I'm not sure about my safety and my liability.I let a friend,who climbs for a local tree service look at it,He told me Forget it!When this heat wave moves out I'm going back to look at it.
 
Sounds like you may have already gotten your answer.. What was your friend's thinking about the tree?
So keep us posted... when the weather breaks.
As far as intuition goes...
a yes is a yes
a no is a no
and a maybe is a no
if all the pieces of the puzzle don't fit... walk
Aslo sounds like you could stand to raise your prices...couldn't we all.
How busy are you?
God Bless,
Daniel
 
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