crosscut saw ident

[Jon C]

Simonds Royal Chinook crosscut saw

Thank you for the info/comments. Here is some more info I have.The blade appears to be unused. It still has factory set and sharpness, all teeth are present. I have seen others with the end teeth broke off to protect their hands, a sure sign of use. Simonds lists these saws up to 7' long then states , longer lengths available upon request. I have seen older Mallory's logging supply catalogs that listed 8,9,10,12 foot saws but I believe they ordered them for the West coast market. This one is 8 1/2' (102") and just about 9' with handles attached. I believe this was special ordered and never used. Probably saved by chainsaws. The grind on this blade is clearly visable. It's a Radial Crescent grind. I have only seen this grind on the Royal Chinook line of saws, Does any body know of other saws that use this type of grind? I would be interested in hearing from any one else who has a Royal Chinook and some pic's would be nice as well. All comments/info would be great. Thanks again...Jon C

 

[ray benson]

Your saw is in better shape and longer than this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SIMONDS-72-ROYA...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b286043

 

[AT sawyer]

Saw grinds

Simonds later saws were "Crescent Ground" and Atkins (like the 550) were "Segment Ground" to provide a double taper. Look close and the thickness of the metal will taper in from the ends to the center; look at the saw end-on and you'll see a visible taper toward the back of the saw. Such saws required less set than an unground saw.

BTW, the red paint on the ends is the mark of a Simonds saw the way blue paint was for an Atkins. It usually rubbed off fairly soon, so that's one more indication that your saw had little if any use.

 

[Jon C]

Simonds Royal Chinook, Radial Crescent #513

AT Sawyer; I have seen Crescent ground saws that have the double taper as on the Radial Crescent, but there is a difference. This saw does have the blade ground in an arc following the blade cutting radius.(Radial) I have heard of at least 3 or 4 different grinds on these saws, Flat, Taper, Crescent and Radial Crescent. Flat is self describing, Taper is ground thinner at back, Crescent is ground thinner at back and thinner in middle to thicker at ends, ( double taper) Radial Crescent is like the Crescent ground except for the arc.The Crescent grind will have different thickness cutters/rakers at ends than in the middle. The Radial Crescent grind leaves the cutters/rakers the same thickness by grinding the body of blade in an arc following the cutting edge, just above the teeth to avoid having different cutter/raker thickness. Does that sound right?.. I have viewed that last post with link to Simonds Royal Chinook on eBay and you can see the clear difference in the style of logo. That saw I believe was made during or after WW2, judging by the simple block lettering logo. Does anybody know when Simonds stop making these crosscut saws? I know Atkins was bought by Borg Warner in early 50's but still made some saw for awhile. I have 1 older Atkins crosscut but is is just a run of the mill Tuttle tooth. Check it out

 

[AT sawyer]

I have very few crosscut saws with legible etchings. I file them for trail crews and out into the woods they go. One thing's for sure, the etchings on later saws were cheesy and rubbed off rather soon. Look at the two No. 13s below. Same saws, same grinds, but the older saw has a much more detailed etching. Same with the Atkins, which rub off quickly. I've tried to acquire old saw catalogs on Ebay, but the collectors always beat me out.

 

[Jon C]

Logo and Grind on crosscut saws

AT Sawyer; Can you tell me if the grind on those 2 Simonds #13 has different thickness teeth at ends than in the middle?(Crescent Ground) Is the Atkins the same style grind with a different name?( Segment/Crescent Ground) Those sure are some nice saws, are they all bucking saws? Is it true that bucking saws are stiffer(less taper) than falling saws? What do you know about the age of those? The Canadian Simonds and The Atkins seem to be from the same time frame, perhaps during or after the war. Thanks for the info and the great pic's of your vintage saws. Do you have a favorite?

 

[Jon C]

Simonds saw works logo

AT Sawyer; I just noticed that the logo on your American made Simonds#13 has the older name on it and has the made of Simonds steel badge as well. That is the first I have seen like that. My research indicates that Simonds changed their name in 1922 from The Simonds Saw Works to The Simonds Saw and Steel Co. That would suggest your saw was made in 1922 or before, a very rare piece indeed especially in such great shape. That is by far the best Simonds saw I have seen yet, of course I have only seen a couple dozen as there seem to be few remaining in any condition. I would welcome any comment/info/pictures from anyone with these old crosscut saws. Thanks again...Jon C

 

[AT sawyer]

I checked the grinds on the old Simonds and the new Atkins, both were nearly identical even though they were of different designs. The center rakers mic'd at .045; end rakers at .031; and center back at .021, so both saws tapered from bottom to top, ends to center, and maintained the thickness of their teeth along the circle of the saw.

I'm not a historian so I won't comment on age and date of manufacture. They are not rare saws though. What's rare is finding them with readable etchings.

I mic'd one of my Chinooks and found it to be of similar grind, but thicker in all measurements. The saw is noticeably heavier and stiffer than its companions.

Most of my saws are buckers, but my favorite saw is a five-foot feller that probably began life as a ten-footer. It's broken end is a bit more than five feet and was no doubt used as a topping saw before I got it. I rehandled it for my trail use and filed it for eastern hardwoods.

Where in Michigan are you?

 

[Jon C]

Vintage logging tools

AT sawyer; Thanks for the info. What part of the AT do you work on? It must be nice to hear those saws sing. I have heard them called misery whips by some old timers, guess they had a boss counting the board feet. How many Royal Chinooks have you seen?... I live in mid-MI near a little village called Skidway next to the Rifle River, and yes it was a skidway. The area was logged off long ago and most of the history is being lost to time. I have been looking for a site to discuss, view, share old logging tools and history, any suggestions? I have even ask this site to add a new forum but I guess there is not much interest. I have been researching Simonds and a company called American Logging Tool Co. (ALTCO) ever hear of them? Not much info on them that I could find. Attachments showing ALTCO logo

 

[AT sawyer]

I maintain a section in the Shenadoah National Park and cut blowdowns on the miles of wilderness trails within SNP. Every spring I teach a workshop on traditional tool use, chiefly how to buck blowdowns with a crosscut saw and axe.

I made some videos of a crosscut saw cutting through a seasoned hardwood log and was going to put it on YouTube, but never got around to it. The video quality was dodgy but the saw really sang, or rang actually. I did post a short seg on how to underbuck with an axe -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhWSmMbZSxY --you can hear the teeth singing a little bit in it.

Royal Chinooks pop up on Ebay from time to time, but most are 7-footers. Not much call for such big saws anymore. The shorter ones are more in demand for trail use. I cut one down and filed it for a guy on my trail crew and made a handle to make it a bit more useable. Cuts like lightning, it does.

I was born in Michigan spent a lot of time in Lincoln Mi, and points north while growing up, and still get back about once or twice a year. My grandfather did some lumbering near Ossineke back in the 1920s and my mom always told stories about skinning logs with a drawknife.

I don't know of any sites that cater to traditional tools. If you find one, let me know. Most of my saw discussion is via email with other saw guys and gals out west.

By all means, search out the Art Martin thread on AS. Mostly chainsaw discussion, but the first part is old-time hand logging.

I am not familiar with ALTCO

 

[ray benson]

Ran across this site today.

http://www.theaxehole.com/

 

[Jon C]

Vintage logging saws and tools

Hey thanks Ray; That is a great site. I just glanced at some of the saws they have for sale. I was also surprised at all the info ( educational) they had available. I am glad to see that and knnow that their is other people keeping the history alive. Any more comments and info would be great. Thanks to all ...Jon C

 

[HiTop]

I have very few crosscut saws with legible etchings. I file them for trail crews and out into the woods they go. One thing's for sure, the etchings on later saws were cheesy and rubbed off rather soon. Look at the two No. 13s below. Same saws, same grinds, but the older saw has a much more detailed etching. Same with the Atkins, which rub off quickly. I've tried to acquire old saw catalogs on Ebay, but the collectors always beat me out.

I'll try and attach an image here but I just got my hands on an M tooth Simonds that is brand new. Bit of rust to remove but it will clean up just fine.
This is a No 378 Vancouver made. Do you know what handles that saw would have had originally? I have no handles and most likely will have to make them as it seems there are none to be had round here. Would love to hear your comments.

 

[AT sawyer]

I don't recognize the slot in the foreground, but back end with two holes will take any pin-type handle. That's the first Simonds M-tooth I've seen. It's sort of like the Tuatahi Homesteader only with more circle (blade curvature). Where did you acquire it? The previous owner may still have the handle attachments. Any chance it was mounted on some kind of motorized jig? It doesn't appear to have been used much, as the etching is very clean. A little kerosene and steel wool will bring that out.

 

[HiTop]

I don't recognize the slot in the foreground, but back end with two holes will take any pin-type handle. That's the first Simonds M-tooth I've seen. It's sort of like the Tuatahi Homesteader only with more circle (blade curvature). Where did you acquire it? The previous owner may still have the handle attachments. Any chance it was mounted on some kind of motorized jig? It doesn't appear to have been used much, as the etching is very clean. A little kerosene and steel wool will bring that out.

Thanks for the reply. These are brand new blades and there are no handles with them sadly. There are peg & rake ones as well, think they are No 325. I don't think it was used on anything motorized but I will ask. Have you ever seen a catalogue with these listed? I cannot for the life of me figure out what went in the slotted end. Because of the taper on the back of the saw a slip hoop wouldn't work unless the handle extended out the end of the saw instead of sitting above the back of the saw.
How much steel wooling will the etching take before it starts to disappear?

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I love these old saws. I have one I found in my barn that must be pretty old. I think it's 6ft. It is complete with handles but I have never seen a name anywhere on it. Never really looked it over too good though.

I'll have to check it out.

 

[AT sawyer]

The etching on your saw doesn't look very deep. I've noticed on later saws, particularly Atkins and Simonds, the etchings were all but stenciled on and won't last long when used. Fine steel wool and wd-40 shouldn't scuff it off much though, but go light. On older saws including rusty old Disstons, I'll go after that oxidation with 60 grit sandpaper and WD-40 and work my way down to 220 grit. Makes quite a slurry, but it cleans up the blade.