Dealing with hang-ups

[timberwolf]

Whats do you guys do with hang ups like this.

Was making some roads and cutting fire wood yesterday and was taking down a larger white ash about 15-16". The tree had a back lean on the trunk for the first 15 feet then the crown had enough of a front lean so it would fall ok. though I needed to go a little left to avoid another large ash about 40 feet away. as it started to fall it was going just a little to the right towards the other ash so I reacted and cut the back cut a little deeper on the left to hope to swing it, my bad, the tree just spun due to the crooked trunk and fell square into the fork of the other tree.

I tried to pull it back with the tractor, but the forks are locked together.

Option 1 is to leave it, safe but it is along a trail and also I dont like wasting wood.

Option 2 I had in mind was to notch the standing tree on the side towards the hung up tree and then pull the but of the hung tree with the tractor, I think it could be done fairly safely.

Option 3 I was thinking the standing tree could be fallen to the side taking the hung tree with it, looks workable but not quite so safe.

Any thought or sugestions?

 

[ddhlakebound]

Whats do you guys do with hang ups like this.

Was making some roads and cutting fire wood yesterday and was taking down a larger white ash about 15-16". The tree had a back lean on the trunk for the first 15 feet then the crown had enough of a front lean so it would fall ok. though I needed to go a little left to avoid another large ash about 40 feet away. as it started to fall it was going just a little to the right towards the other ash so I reacted and cut the back cut a little deeper on the left to hope to swing it, my bad, the tree just spun due to the crooked trunk and fell square into the fork of the other tree.

I tried to pull it back with the tractor, but the forks are locked together.

Option 1 is to leave it, safe but it is along a trail and also I dont like wasting wood.

Option 2 I had in mind was to notch the standing tree on the side towards the hung up tree and then pull the but of the hung tree with the tractor, I think it could be done fairly safely.

Option 3 I was thinking the standing tree could be fallen to the side taking the hung tree with it, looks workable but not quite so safe.

Any thought or sugestions?

When you cut your hinge on the left to try to adjust it, you commited it to its bad path. You should have cut the hinge on the right, to allow more holding wood on the left to pull it in that direction. Once the tree's in motion, its not very easy to change its course very much anyway. Lots of different opinions here on using a tapered hinge.

Now, your options....

1. It may be relatively safe right now, but as it starts to decay, or a big storm comes along, it could become dangerous without you ever realizing it. I'd also not be very willing to leave evidence of my mistake hanging there. So to me leaving it there isn't an option.

2. This could work, but has you directly under the hanger at the trunk of the tree its hanging on. Lots of ways this could go bad, different forces and tensions very hard to predict. Or the butt of the hanger could bind up in the ground with the extra force from the other tree when you go to pulling on it. That would be even worse, and more dangerous to clear.

3. I like this one least of all. What you have planned as your escape paths could very quickly become dangerous. If I felt like I had no other options, and had to do this, I'd definately have both the standing tree and the hanger tree tied off (2/3 high) individually to a strong anchor, to make it unlikely that either one could fall away from the anchor point, into your escape path. Then I'd still try to find another way.

Other options...

A climber or bucket truck to cut it free from where it's hung up is probably the safest option, if someone with experience with this sort of thing is available.

Block it upward. Start at the butt, and take off a firewood sized piece at a time, undercutting each piece start to finish. Using good judgement on when to stop cutting off pieces is critical. Obviously, keep your feet, legs, and body clear. Once it's at a more upright angle, you can tie on again, and try to pull it free. It'll be much lighter, and at a better angle to pull it out. Then if the tree it was hung up on is messed up, you can deal with it safely.

Hope this helps, be safe.

 

[John Ellison]

If you have enough line (wire rope) hang a block on it.

 

[Fireaxman]

...Then I'd still try to find another way.

Other options...

A climber or bucket truck to cut it free from where it's hung up is probably the safest option, if someone with experience with this sort of thing is available.

Block it upward. Start at the butt, and take off a firewood sized piece at a time, undercutting each piece start to finish. Using good judgement on when to stop cutting off pieces is critical. Obviously, keep your feet, legs, and body clear. Once it's at a more upright angle, you can tie on again, and try to pull it free. It'll be much lighter, and at a better angle to pull it out. Then if the tree it was hung up on is messed up, you can deal with it safely.

Hope this helps, be safe.

I fully agree with ddh. I had a lot of these to deal with after Katrina. Most of them I handled according to ddh's second suggestion, except that I wound up using Salami cuts rather than square cuts. I went to Salami cuts because the first hanger I worked on slipped down on me as I finished the square cut and grabbed my saw. The Salami cuts slid across the bar and into the ground without a problem.

If the trees were not hung up too tightly I had no trouble pulling them apart with griphoist, tractor, or the winch on my jeep after I had taken a few logs off the butt. But if they were tangled and tied together pretty solid in the tops I used ddh's first suggestion until I had cleaned the top up, then finished by pulling and/or cutting from the butt.

Someone on this web site gave me a very good tip about climbing and cutting from the top that I will share. Tie the stems together where they touch below where you are working with a good piece of rope before you begin, to keep them from twisting out on you while you are in the top cleaning out branches.

If you could post a picture of your hangup you could probably get some very good, very specific advice.

 

[Bermie]

One of the big no no's with hungups is to fell the tree it is hung up in! Highly unpredictable.

Cutting bits off the bottom is also a not a first choice, but it can be done CAREFULLY if you take it slow and stay very alert. The risk is either the butt sliding down too quickly, top coming out in a rush, falling in an unpredictable manner.... or the top weight takes over and flips the butt up in the air...

If it is stuck in the fork, try and winch the butt out, or climb (or bucket) and cut the hanger till it can be winched out or it drops out. Just be careful and try and anticipate the risks!

 

[timberwolf]

I would cut chunks off the bottom, but the way the one fork is stuck crosswise in the other they are not likely to come apart and this would just leave the hung tree at a steaper angle. Dont mind cutting chunks off smaller trees, but with that much of a tree I am not so fond of the idea. At least the crowns are locked so it cant very well slide down after hacking off a slab of salami.

I did realize what I had done when I cut the hinge too thin on the wrong side, just a brain fart I guess. In hind side I could have done a much beter job on the face cut and maybe left some wood in the face cut on the right side or tapered the opening out on the left to help it pull left and clear the other tree. I used a humboldt just cause I thought the tree could kick out at the butt with the crook in it, could have added some snipe on the left, live and learn.

Not the kind of place for a bucket truck, just a 4 wheeler track used for hunting then skidooing and skiing in the winter.

Maybe put a long bar on and take some blocks off at least it will be a little less weight.

 

[joesawer]

Every situation is different. Any of the suggestions you or the others have made could possibly be the best.
A few questions for you.
Is your tractor pulling the butt up off the ground and getting a good pull on the standing tree?
At what angle is the tree hung at, is it applying a lot of push to the standing tree.
Remember- Working at the stump of the tree with another tree hung in it is like sticking your head in a tigers mouth, or trying to steal the cheese from a really big mouse trap.
That said, it might be possible to face and back cut the standing tree toward the hung tree and then pull them both over. A few things to be aware of.
Make your back cut slow,and make sure you don't stick your saw.
If the fallen tree is putting a lot of push on the standing tree, and it probably is, the push can be reduced by cutting blocks off and getting it to stand up straighter.
If it is crotched as good as you think it is and the butt winds up in the air, then it is ballast pulling instead of a push pole pushing.
If the tree can be fell to the weight of the hung top, face it to the left or right of the suspended butt, so that when the butt hits the ground the tree and top can roll in a predictable manner, versus jamming the suspended but straight into the ground and pole vaulting the whole mess in a totally unpredictable manner.
There are some methods for falling the tree with another hung in it but I don't feel comfortable trying to talk some one through it over the internet.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I will answer if I know, tell you if I don't.

 

[timberwolf]

Thanks Joe.

The hung tree is at about a 30-35 deg angle from horizantal, Pulling with the tractor the but came up off the ground 10 or 15 feet, so had a good pull on it. The fork of the hung tree is locked in right above the fork of the standing tree, so it aint moving unless the standing tree split right down the center, which is solid so that is not anticipated.

I think any push on the standing tree would be nearly straight down and after pulling on the but of the hung tree there might even be some pull.

Now thinking, maybe just notching the standing tree with a nice wide face cut to fall towards the hung tree, then putting a little tension (pull) on the but of the hung tree with the tractor before making a shallow back cut leaving lots of hinge wood and pulling it down from a safe distance? The escape route is good back and away from the slight side lean.

I appreciate people not wanting to say "do this" or "do that", as you say each situation is different and the risks and hazards specific to the situation.

I am not the type of person who just goes and does something because someone says so. I make my own decisions and hold no-one responsible for them but myself! Just like to get input and ideas from others with experience and thought it might be a good discussion.

 

[booboo]

ropes are an option too

We've pulled out a lot of hung up trees with ropes from the ground. There are a ton of variations depending on angles, butt size, how badly hung they area etc... Some pictures of your one would help. While I've done a lot of stove piping or salami cuts, I'm not a big fan of them because of the unpredictability of the release and how close you've got to be making the cut.

In the situation I think you're describing, I've had success with setting a rope above the cut, then making an open face notch on the backside and a shallow back cut on the frontside. The rope is run to a winch or comealong well back from the tree and approx. 90 degrees to it and it is simply winched until the hanger breaks. If it doesn't come free, re-set the rope and do it again until it does.

We recently did a job at a golf course with poplar and pine hung up in the woods off the fairways. Even though it was in the woods, people go looking for balls in there and the hanging trees needed to be put on the ground. It was a straight line wind and most of the trees were snapped off 15-20' up. Some were hanging in other trees, some had tops on the ground. By setting ropes in the broken trees, and in some cases, the trees that were still standing as well if they had to be cut too, we were able to get them all down pretty easily. We set the ropes roughly perpendicular to the direction of the hanger or weight, to a heavy comealong. Then a standard notch in the direction of the rope, a very shallow back cut, and let the comealong do the rest. While it does involve going into the "mousetrap", by making the notch and back cut just deep enough to allow for release when winched, there is a relative margin of safety. Yes, I know it means that there are forces being applied at odd angles, and with poplar, splitting and barber chairs were a definate concern. The advantage to doing it this way is that you are nowhere near the tree when it breaks loose. In more than 1 case, we dropped both the snapped off tree and the tree it was hung up in a the same time. Both had ropes set, then were notched and back cut before any pull was applied. The key is setting the anchor at a safe distance and appropriate angle. However, each hanger has to be evaluated and approached differently depending on the exact circumstances.

OK, flame away but this is dangerous work and sometimes it's a lot safer to be creative on the ground than put a climber up with a saw.

 

[Bermie]

Can you anticipate or diagnose where all the forces will be acting if you try and fell the standing tree? Do you have a bomb proof escape route? Yes/No?
Sounds like you will be loading the standing tree with some serious forces...the weight of the standing tree plus the weight of the hung up plus a tensioned pull rope, you start the back cut and BAMMMM.....just think it through.

The five do nots of hung ups:
Do not fell the tree that the hung up is stuck in
Do not fell another tree in an attempt to knock out the hung up
Do not walk under the hung up tree
Do not cut bits off the bottom of the hung up
Do not leave a hung up unattended (tape off the danger area or leave a person there)

There will always be some exceptions to a degree based on the particular situation.

Sound like your tree is well stuck and in no danger of coming out unexpectedly. Is there someone around (or yourself) who can climb it?
Just because you can't pull it out is no reason to go to the most dangerous option of trying to fell the standing one.

Sorry If I am teaching you to suck eggs, I'll exit the scene now.

 

[timberwolf]

The five do nots of hung ups:
Do not fell the tree that the hung up is stuck in
Do not fell another tree in an attempt to knock out the hung up
Do not walk under the hung up tree
Do not cut bits off the bottom of the hung up
Do not leave a hung up unattended (tape off the danger area or leave a person there)

All good points, but it leaves no way short of a helicopter to solve the problem. That is not hapening.

How would a climber help? To me it would be far more risky to climb up the tree add a moving load and cut anything up there to alow things to be pulled apart.

Escape route is definitly solid and away from the side lean, but it could be made safer by cabeling the slight side lean so to prevent either tree from coming back against the lean towards the best escape route.

I'm sure no arborist! Me, I just cuts a bit of fire wood, mills a few logs and builds a few saws.

 

[booboo]

Bermie...

Not looking for trouble, just curious of you're response is in part to my post. If so, in answer to your first 2 comments. Clear escape route is first and foremost, in my scenario both for cutter and comealong operator, as well as clearing out small trees/brush that is in the way of the fall. 2nd, rope is set, but not tensioned until cutter is done and is clear of the area. This is critical, force from a tensioned rope changes the entire calculation and is way too unpredictable. Sorry if I was not clear on that. 3rd, fully agree with all 5 of your do-nots and that there are exceptions based on situation. I'm describing what I feel is more dangerous to climb than work from the ground IMHO.

 

[timberwolf]

I will try to go out for a walk tonight a snap a couple pics, want to start walking the bush a seeing where things are at for deer hunting anyway.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Based on the description, hung very tightly, standing tree solid, I think putting a climber in the crown is by far the safest option. It's the only way to have the worker above the pivot point. Once your'e above it, all thats left to do is limb the tree past the hang up, then make one or two more cuts to allow the hung tree to drop.

This way, no one is ever sawing from a position where something could fall on them. The hangar can be managed, with thought out cuts, from a position tied in safely above the hangar.

I've done lots of these, I'm sure others have done more. The only place where the person clearing the hazard is (relativley) safe is above it.

 

[woodchux]

Be safe ... Use some dynamite with a looong fuse.













Well.... it'd be fun anyway.

 

[timberwolf]

Here is what we are looking at.

Think about the biggest danger might be pic 2, taken less then 100 feet away where this guy had been ripping up a beaver den.

 

[booboo]

Yep, that's hung up all right

Nice shot man...just kidding:biggrinbounce2:

After going on about pulling to the side with ropes, now I'll backtrack and say "nope" on that one. Those crotches look to be locked up tight. While you might be able to stove pipe it back till it drops, I seriously doubt it. If it twists at all while it drops, it's just going to hang up tighter and it looks like each of the leaders on the hanger has a lateral that could be trouble. Safest way is going to be with a climber to take both leaders on the hanger back to the pressure point on the upright, then release it from above.

I thought you were scouting for DEER! Instead we see BEER and bear tracks! Good choice of beverages though.

Hope this helps a little at least.

 

[Jonsered2095]

I don't know what the problem is timberwolf. I'd just secure it, and tell everyone 'I've got one well hung tree'... the ladies could call you 'Hanger!!':hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

I know rule #1 is 'don't fell the standing tree'... but (and I can't tell if the other trees behind are too close) I would... at 85-90 deg's to the hanger, so the hanger just falls sideways with the standing tree directing the fall. Make the back cut to just before the point of balance, and pull it over with a rope (good advice I think guys) attached about 1/3 the way up the hanger pulling at 45 deg's to the fall allowing a secure fall of the hanger. This should also lessen the chance of the butt flicking back towards you (the feller) if it goes while you are still making the cut. I think the butt end of the hanger is the most dangerous in this scenario.

But like you said, you make your own decisions. Being there can be very different. You have to feel comfortable with your own capabilities.

Anything wrong with this idea guys?? What do you think?? I'd be more worried about the BEER... I mean BEAR.

 

[squad143]

Timberwolf

Looks like the tree can be climbed and the leaner cut at the crown side of the notch that it is stuck on.

What part of Ontario is it in? I live in the Toronto area and do tree removal in the Haliburton area. If it is somewhat close, I'd be happy to give it a look.

Don't worry about the bear, its hunting season now, he should be well wary of you. Just be glad he wasn't drinking Blue. Wouldn't trust a bear that drinks Labatts. LOL.

BTW, cool pics.

 

[Bermie]

No booboo, not directed at you specificaly, just general comments to consider.
ddhlakebound has said it well regarding a climber.
It looks WELL stuck and is probably safe to leave for now...
It looks quite large and heavy, no way would I cut the standing tree, no way!