Energy Star Tax Credit,gasifiers & marketing

[CrappieKeith]

There's a ton of information out there about this new tax credit however there is a lot unsaid or said in a way that is what I'd call pure marketing that does not benefit the homeowner.

1st off ...the new credit says that the unit you buy must be 75% efficient using the lower heat value method of testing.
This test assumes there is no moisture in the solid fuel.
How many furnaces or stove approves kiln dried wood to be burned in them?
None as far as I know so if we are using wood logs there will always be 15-20% moisture in that solid fuel.
Pellets have some moisture in them as does corn.
So to say they are 80% or whatever is very misleading but it sells wood burners.
The government allowed for this lower heating value because of the stove industry pushing for this easier to obtain higher percentages allowing more stoves to be allowed and thusly selling more stoves. It's all about the almighty dollar folks.
It has nothing to do with helping you get a better furnace or stove.

2nd.... a tax credit is a one time credit.....getting a well built efficient furnace that makes and exchanges all of the heat available will service you for decades.
the later is your better option.Add up the thousands of dollars every year that you'll be paying your self for loading the solid fuel and you'll see the return on your investment.

3rd...the term gasifier is also a marketing term. There are no residential gasifiers on the market.
Here's a link to explain what a gasifier is..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasification
In truth you'd need a fluid bed or some filtration to screen out the impurities to end up with pure gas and then that gas is burnt to generate heat.
The truer term would be an after burn .
This process is derived by heating combustion air and then introducing it in a hot environment where the wood smoke is.The smoke will burn.

Lastly....how efficient is your furnace? Good question.
There is no way to put a single number on a wood burner. They do not have continuity of operation like a gas,oil or electric furnace has.
There are so many variances.
How wet is you wood?The dryer the wood the more heat it can make.
How well does you flue draft? The slower the draft speeds ...the less heat that goes up the flue.
Is the furnace sized properly? CO against flue gas temps are how real efficiencies are measured and to have a furnace at high burn...those percentages will be higher vs lower flues or stack temps.

The question should be ...what is the range of efficiencies?
55-70% is about the best you could expect.

At Yukon ,we make solid fuel furnaces with 30 year warranties. All of our furnaces incoperate an after burn.
They all have massive heat exchangers and they all have barometric draft regulators slow flue temps to 400 degrees with thermosts that cycle burn rates.
You can not find another wood burner that makes any more heat or exchanges any more heat than the line of Yukon furnaces do.

 

[ericjeeper]

If a wood stove would burn at 90% efficiency you could use six inch schedule 40 for the flue.
If all this holds true like in a gas fired furnace.
It would also need a draft fan to push the exhaust out.

 

[Highbeam]

One might read this and assume that your furnace didn't qualify for the credit. If it did, and since it is a great appliance, then that's all great. I don't really care about what it takes to qualify or what type of wood was used so long as the stove I buy get's me a big fat refund.

So did you qualify?

 

[CrappieKeith]

One might read this and assume that your furnace didn't qualify for the credit. If it did, and since it is a great appliance, then that's all great. I don't really care about what it takes to qualify or what type of wood was used so long as the stove I buy get's me a big fat refund.

So did you qualify?

Yes we qualify ,but if you want to run around with blinders on then that is your choice.
I am trying to educate others.

Great comment Eric.....
There are no wood appliance in this world anyway that is in real efficiencies over 83%.
To get any higher would require so much heat being eliminated from venting that that flue gas would liquefy. Since there are no drains like on a condensing gas furnace and there are no blower to shoot smoke up the pipe.Oh ...you'd need a blower because stack temps under 250 degrees will not be hot enough to create a draft....therefore like on a condensing furnace a blower is required to blow the exhaust out a pipe which is normally PVC.

Back to Highbeam...
All you care about is a credit,which you'd 1st have to owe at least whatever credit your looking for to the IRS. Now this credit is a one time credit.
If the unit you are looking for does not stay lit all day heating your entire home your going to be the looser in the deal.

For the same money as what a pretty stove will cost you can get a workhorse of a whole house furnace that will use less wood.
Do the math.
I'm not sure what size your home is but look at these numbers.

A 3000 s/f home in apart of the country that heats for 6-7 months will need about 200 gallons of #2 fuel oil or about 250-300 gallons of propane to keep it at 72 degrees per month.
I know fuel price vary across the country so lets do oil and take last winters pricing.
I saw as high as $5.30 a gallon, but lets say it was 3$ a gallon.
So 200 gallons at 3$ equals 600$ a month and multiplied times 7 months ...that would be a $4200 heating bill. Just think if it was 5$ a gallon..$7000!
Propane was around $2.50...now propane is blended so it could vary by 30-40% in what it could make in BTU's per gallon.
Anyway on the low end 250 gallons times 2.50$ a gallon equals 625$ times 7 months is $4375.

If the costs stayed consistent over 30 years a guy could spend over $120,000 and that money goes to someone else.There is no investment payback here. That money is gone!

So you say as long as you get that 1 time carrot your all good.
I'd recommend to everyone to examine how many btu's your home needs then get an appropriate furnace to handle that heating load.
If it happens to be a Yukon then the Husky or Klondike will heat that home on 1 cord of hardwood a month.
A load in the a.m. and an armload in the p.m.
or 1 ton of coal a month.

Being these 2 furnaces 1 wood/coal and the other wood/coal/oil or gas will range in price from$3139 to $4800 it would pay for itself in 1 season then it will pay you for the next 30 years and longer.
Will a stove do all of this?
Hardley...a stove heats a room or 2 a furnace heats the entire home.
Most stoves do not have more than a 5 year warranty.
How many stoves will you go through before a Yukon would wear out?

I have a Yukon and I'm glad I invested in it....tax carrot...sure you can get it for our furnace but that should not be the driving force on which wood furnace,stove,boiler you get.

 

[JAM]

CrappieKeith; How does the Charmaster furnace stackup against the Yukon?
Not trying to be a smarta$$, just curious.

 

[CrappieKeith]

CrappieKeith; How does the Charmaster furnace stackup against the Yukon?
Not trying to be a smarta$$, just curious.

Great question....
Eagle I vs Charmaster I

To start let me say they make a good furnace.Better than most that are out there.....but

The Eagle I/Husky has 4 more s/f ..54 vs 50 of heat exchange surface area.
We have thicker(2")firebrick. Ours are at 3200 degree rated.
Our warranty is 10 years longer.. 30 vs 20
We are U.L. listed they are only tested to UL391 by e.t.l.m. which does not do testing anymore. Code say's that to burn 2 fuels(liquid/solid ) in the same appliance using a single flue that it be tested and LISTED.Listed means that the testing facility maintain the listing by having it inspected to make sure it is made as it was when it was originally listed and tested.UL comes here every quarter.
Your insurance company WILL NOT COVER THE CHARMASTER FURNACE IF THE ADJUSTER FIGURES OUT IT IS NOT LISTED AS PER CODE YOU'D HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON.

We are also the only UL listed multifuel or wood furnace on the market.
We are the only wood/gas all in one furnaces on the market needing 1 flue and the gas will light the wood.

To make all of the btu's available you'll need a grate in which air from below makes 60% of the heat.Then to bring in super hot air above will burn off the smoke generating the other 30-40% available.
Charmaster does not have a grate and to empty ashes you dump the box into the ash pan which means you'll have to re start(light) the fire vs our furnaces have a grate for the ashes to fall through allowing the fire to continue without having to relight...just refire.
Our cabinet is insulated...not sure about Charmaster's cabinet.

Ours even looks better and is heavier.
The more it weighs the more steel and brick you'll have in it.

When Sears chose to have a multifuel on the market in the late 70's and 80's they chose Yukon not Charmaster.

We both sell from about the same dollars in an apple to apple comparison.

 

[046]

sorry but that's not true.... in no way shape or form am I saying Yukon furnaces are not good.

Russian Fireplaces are acknowledged as the most efficient wood burner at 90% efficiency. most have 11+ tons of mass to exchange heat.

You can not find another wood burner that makes any more heat or exchanges any more heat than the line of Yukon furnaces do.

 

[Highbeam]

Wow Keith, we must have had a misunderstanding, sorry about that. Your thread title was specific about the tax credit and not about whether a furnace or stove is a better heater or even a more economical heater. I posted in regards to the tax credit and my point is that if I were to buy a furnace or a stove then I will be happy to take advantage of this tax credit as a bonus to a purchase decision. The appliance chosen either does or does not qualify using some sort of black magic voodoo that really does not matter to me. If the appliance qualifies then I get a nice carrot on top of the satisfaction of purchasing a high quality appliance that is highly efficient. My chosen appliance would be high quality and of high efficiency because that is what I want and the tax credit is just gravy.

How does one ever become a looser by accepting the tax credit? If I buy your furnace should I turn the credit down so as not to become a loser? The stoves or furnaces are the same ones they were before the credit was offered?

I happen to burn a stove for my whole house heat and I use no other source of heat. It works very well and requires semi frequent tending. I burned 4 cords of softwood last winter and 7 the year before, I insulated over the summer. I have mixed feelings about wood furnaces. I like to look at the fire so I am willing to give up some of the conveniences such as long burn times and even heat that a furnace would provide. I've been to your website Keith and if my home had ductwork I might just consider a furnace from you to use with the stove. All of that is for a different thread though since this was a tax credit thread, right?

I understand that the woodstock Fireview scored a 91+% efficiency rating using the tax credit's criteria. I think it is obvious that the efficiency rating method was skewed heavily to allow even not-so-efficient appliances to qualify.

 

[CrappieKeith]

ok...what's the stack temp then?????

 

[CrappieKeith]

Wow Keith, we must have had a misunderstanding, sorry about that. Your thread title was specific about the tax credit and not about whether a furnace or stove is a better heater or even a more economical heater. I posted in regards to the tax credit and my point is that if I were to buy a furnace or a stove then I will be happy to take advantage of this tax credit as a bonus to a purchase decision. The appliance chosen either does or does not qualify using some sort of black magic voodoo that really does not matter to me. If the appliance qualifies then I get a nice carrot on top of the satisfaction of purchasing a high quality appliance that is highly efficient. My chosen appliance would be high quality and of high efficiency because that is what I want and the tax credit is just gravy.

How does one ever become a looser by accepting the tax credit? If I buy your furnace should I turn the credit down so as not to become a loser? The stoves or furnaces are the same ones they were before the credit was offered?

I happen to burn a stove for my whole house heat and I use no other source of heat. It works very well and requires semi frequent tending. I burned 4 cords of softwood last winter and 7 the year before, I insulated over the summer. I have mixed feelings about wood furnaces. I like to look at the fire so I am willing to give up some of the conveniences such as long burn times and even heat that a furnace would provide. I've been to your website Keith and if my home had ductwork I might just consider a furnace from you to use with the stove. All of that is for a different thread though since this was a tax credit thread, right?

I understand that the woodstock Fireview scored a 91+% efficiency rating using the tax credit's criteria. I think it is obvious that the efficiency rating method was skewed heavily to allow even not-so-efficient appliances to qualify.

ya see that just shows why forums sorta suck....no voice inflection and ya take the text as it says.
I think we are both misunderstanding each other.
I mis understood what you had meant ,but I'm glad to see...hear that you are looking for quality.
Good luck in what ever you choose.
I'm not angry hope I didn't piss you off.

 

[CrappieKeith]

sorry but that's not true.... in no way shape or form am I saying Yukon furnaces are not good.

Russian Fireplaces are acknowledged as the most efficient wood burner at 90% efficiency. most have 11+ tons of mass to exchange heat.

It's impossible to be 90% unless it's a condensor and if it burns wood I wonder where the cresote drain is?

Running some numbers here....a flue gas temp has to be at least 300 degree for a decent draft.
You'd need a fire over 2000 degrees to have 90%
Most steels I know of would warp and split at that kind of temp.

 

[046]

Russian Fireplaces have been in use for hundreds of years. it's quite possible to obtain 85-90% efficiency. Super efficient clean burning wood burners have been around for quite some time.

as with crafts like carpentry and masons that's been around for hundreds of years. state of the art occurred long ago.

here's a bit of technical construction details by a brick mfg.

http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t19d.htm

http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t19e.htm

It's impossible to be 90% unless it's a condensor and if it burns wood I wonder where the cresote drain is?

 

[Highbeam]

In terms of this tax credit. I do not think that you must choose between a tax credit and a high quality appliance. You can choose the best dang appliance on the market and likely it will qualify for the credit.

The credit might only buy your first two or three years of firewood or maybe a wood splitter, maybe a nice new 046 or 361, but it will most likely be used to reduce the purchase price of that fine appliance.

This means that a guy that couldn't afford to buy a nice Yukon furnace can maybe now afford to buy one. They just became 30% cheaper right? That's huge!

I just can not see anything negative about the credit from a stove seller or buyer's point of view.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Typically, the combustion chamber or firebox is loaded with 10 lb (4.5 kg) to 20 lb (9.1 kg) of wood, after a fire with kindling is ignited. Once good combustion starts, the firebox doors or glass screens are closed and the air intakes adjusted to the proper setting so that good combustion continues. Unlike the Russian-style brick masonry heater, because of the design of the firebox, glass screens may be used on the fountain-style heater and the modified conventional fireplace. The glass screens or firebox doors used should be equipped with operable air inlets so that the air intake to the combustion chamber can be controlled. The metal firebox doors or glass screens selected for the firebox opening should be capable of withstanding the high temperatures in the combustion chamber. Temperatures of combusting wood will usually range from 1000oF (540oC) to 1500oF (820oC), and the temperature of the combustion gases near the fire usually ranges from about 800oF (430oC) to 1200oF (650oC). (See Reference 10). Thus, all components of the firebox should be capable of withstanding these temperatures.

The 10 lb (4.5 kg) to 20 lb (9.1 kg) of wood loaded in the firebox will burn for about 30 min when properly seasoned wood is used with adequate draft and combustion air. For maximum heating, the firebox should be reloaded with about 10 lb (4.5 kg) to 20 lb (9.1 kg) of wood every 30 min for a 2-hr period. This procedure usually results in enough heat being supplied by the brick masonry heater to keep a 2400 ft 3 (68 m3) room warm for a period of 8 to 12 hr during the coldest months in



using these number ....
so I load 10lb every 30 minutes for 2 hours.
That's 4 load at 10 lbs each load...40lbs of wood and I'm to do that twice to three times to get 8-12 hours heating a 2400 s/f home.

Now there's no ducting so my home better be an open floor plan.
I know that there's 2000 lb. in a ton a cord of oak weighs 2 ton.
So that would heat a home on a 4800 lb.s a month.Most likely a bit more with 8 hour heating times...3 periods of loading over the 2 hours=360 lb of wood x 30 days= 10,800 or 2.7 cords of oak.
Remember I took the 10lbs a load...not 20!

Now keep in mind that you'll need to load it 2 times an hour for 2 hours straight....so for 4-6 hours you'll need to be home for these 2 hour increments of loading as per the instructions.

On the other hand you could load 66 lb.s twice a day into the Yukon Husky to heat all day using 1 cord of oak to heat not a 2400 but 3000 s/f home here in northern Mn.

Even if my numbers were skewed somewhat....that still does not get this Russian fireplace to 90% no matter how you shake it out in my book.
I'd say it's closer to 50% maybe 60%.


I'm not here trying to beat up the Russians......but I know the numbers and the physics of burning wood vs...exchanging heat and Yukons are as good as it gets in making all of the btu's then exchanging the btu's as are avaible per moisture content of the wood.
Heck we have a patent on the process used in our multi fuels.

 

[laynes69]

We are also the only UL listed multifuel or wood furnace on the market.
We are the only wood/gas all in one furnaces on the market needing 1 flue and the gas will light the wood.
.

Wrong. The Caddy made by SBI will take an oil burner, or an electric heater to supplement in heating. They are UL Listed, and do qualify for a tax credit. Also they share the same flue. I may qualify for the tax credit, but due to usstove discontinuing the furnaces I have to contact SBI which still makes them and talk with them. They are still made and the hotblast which I have is a re badged caddy. My furnace is 71.4% efficient. I understand the yukon may be efficient, but what are your numbers? And why aren't they ran. I know everytime you talk down efficiency ratings and people want to see them on the units. Would I buy an oil furnace when someone tells me its efficient, or see in the writing and know in the testing its 80% efficient. I want to see the numbers. I don't see how your furnaces apply for the tax credit. Whats your testing efficiences on the yukon furnaces? Where on your site does it say that your furnaces qualify for the tax credit.

http://www.psg-distribution.com/documents/CERTIFICATE OF QUALIFICATION - psg.pdf

 

[CrappieKeith]

We are UL listed to be at least 80.1%

I doubt that they are ul listed. I went to UL...did a search for wood furnaces...only we came up.

What's the file number?

 

[laynes69]

What I got is
UL 391-3rd Ed. 1995 Rev. 1999
CSA B.415
Can-CSA-3 366.1-m94

Is that the Wood side? Is it EPA exempt on the ratings?

 

[laynes69]

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

Here's another thing to look at. Scroll down on the list Psg Distribution inc. The caddy duct furnace.

 

[CrappieKeith]

What I got is
UL 391-3rd Ed. 1995 Rev. 1999
CSA B.415
Can-CSA-3 366.1-m94

Is that the Wood side? Is it EPA exempt on the ratings?

The wood side is over 80% using the lower heat value method and EPA 40/60 rule subpart AAA 1st page in the exemptions lists all solid fuel...wood/coal furnace from compliance.
Have you ever read the standard?
The gist of it is that stoves of old were only 10% efficient and that the EPA wanted to force more efficiency out of them.They were just metal boxes. No thermal mass,no reburn....nothing that would promote getting more btu's out of the wood.

As to the standards you have listed....
What you saying is that they have been tested to these standards of UL and CSA ,but by whom is my question?

If this company does not continue the listing like we have to do every 3 months then they do not meet the heating code as per NFPA or CSA.
For example....
Charmaster says that they are tested to UL391 by E.T.L.M.
Energy Testing Labs of Maine does not do testing anymore nor do they continue the listings for these companies.Yet in the product brochures and on their websitesite it says tested to UL391 by ETLM.
Most folks have no idea what this all means.

Years ago CSA was a for profit testing facility. They now are a goverment agency and do not do testings.

I believe CSA has the same requirement that if a furnace burns a liquid and solid fuel together in the same furnace that it must be tested which it was but that it also be listed.
So my question is by whom does the listing.
Do they stay current as per code?

 

[CrappieKeith]

Well here's my answer that after a few calls......

Omni testing labs goes out once a year to maintain the listings for the PSG furnaces.
I verified that with Omni.
If this satifies your insurance company then your covered.

Again we are the only UL listed furnace in the US and Canada.We have the UL and ULc tag with the serial number MH11057
It's ok to question me ,but I doubt that I'll be telling any spoofs.

I've been in this business for 12 years and I'm taught by our owner with near 40 years in this business.Heck he was on the board that made our heating code we use today.
He designed the very 1st oil and gas condensing furnaces to hit the market.

There are very good wood and multi fuel furnaces out there,but none of them have all of the attributes that the Yukon's have which make them the most efficient long lasting furnaces on the market 35 years ago through today.
Bold staement for sure ,but I've yet been able to disprove this idea after a decade of shopping and searching.


Before calling the manufacturer I called 3 dealers from their listing of dealers. Those dealers did not know who PSG was?????
When you call us we will be knowledgable about the product as well as be very good at the tech service end of things. Plus there will be no dealer mark up nor sales tax unless you live in Mn.

When you buy from a dealer there will always be a healthy mark up.
So what are you really getting for your hard earned money?


My phone number is in my signature if anyone wants to discuss furnaces.