Energy Star Tax Credit,gasifiers & marketing

[laynes69]

Yes they are listed. My furnace was tested by warnock hersey and carries the stamp, or tag. As far as emissions goes, Here is what the tag says:

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Certified to Comply with July 1990 Particulate Emission Standards, Phase II.

The yukon is listed as an exemption from the list. The caddy is not! Meaning the emissions "May" be higher. Obviously that can vary from operator to operator, but the Caddy is EPA Certified. None of the yukons are. So for you to throw out a 80% efficiency on a yukon is bogus. I can guarantee my efficiences are much higher than the yukon, and yet your furnaces qualify on a tax credit, Yeah right. Also the multifuel furnaces are listed, and are EPA Approved also. Once again I seen nothing on your site that says you qualify for a tax credit if you buy this product. Give me a site so I can read up on your exempt testing.

What I am trying to say is your furnace may be great. It may be efficient, but show those numbers. And if I purchased a furnace from a company that I thought would qualify for a tax credit and it didn't. I would be one pissed off person. I can buy parts online at any heating and cooling place for the electronics. As far as the others, I call Usstove, and I get them its that easy.





http://**********/econtent/index.php/wiki/EPA_Emissions_Regulations/

 

[CrappieKeith]

Yes they are listed. My furnace was tested by warnock hersey and carries the stamp, or tag. As far as emissions goes, Here is what the tag says:

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Certified to Comply with July 1990 Particulate Emission Standards, Phase II.

The yukon is listed as an exemption from the list. The caddy is not! Meaning the emissions "May" be higher. Obviously that can vary from operator to operator, but the Caddy is EPA Certified. None of the yukons are. So for you to throw out a 80% efficiency on a yukon is bogus. I can guarantee my efficiences are much higher than the yukon, and yet your furnaces qualify on a tax credit, Yeah right. Also the multifuel furnaces are listed, and are EPA Approved also. Once again I seen nothing on your site that says you qualify for a tax credit if you buy this product. Give me a site so I can read up on your exempt testing.

What I am trying to say is your furnace may be great. It may be efficient, but show those numbers. And if I purchased a furnace from a company that I thought would qualify for a tax credit and it didn't. I would be one pissed off person. I can buy parts online at any heating and cooling place for the electronics. As far as the others, I call Usstove, and I get them its that easy.





http://**********/econtent/index.php/wiki/EPA_Emissions_Regulations/

In taking the high road I'll stop here.
Questioning my integrity does not sit well.....
I've stated facts...you've stated inuendo and claim I'm lying.....

 

[Haywire Haywood]

CC, it may be the way I'm reading this and not your intent, but you're coming across like a real AHole. My stove heats my whole house no problem.

Ian

 

[laynes69]

I don't care if a person buys a yukon or not. Personally I've never seen them, or know of anyone with them. If a person buys one great. But to go on here and say we are 80% efficient and we qualify for a tax credit and if you do great, but if not its a bogus thing to do. Now to say we have great furnaces, well built, etc and not try to throw out numbers thats okay. I chimed in here because you said you guys were the only UL listed multifuel or wood furnace on the market and others was bogus. Thats where I called you out. Don't use sales hypes, just let people decide for themselves. Also most of the qualifications for the credit apply to the stoves. But there are also woodfurnaces that apply. Its a trade off to upgrade, get a better stove or furnace and get something thats better for the environment.

 

[CrappieKeith]

CC, it may be the way I'm reading this and not your intent, but you're coming across like a real AHole. My stove heats my whole house no problem.

Ian

Thanks for the heads up.
I figured this might happen, but I felt like it needed to be said.
We are the cadillac in the industry ....none others are UL listed as I've stated.
UL is a testing facility....if they have not come out ,done the testing and have a serial number on the appliance it is not UL listed.
It may have been tested by some other company to the UL standard ,but it's not UL listed.
And really if your stove heats your home...great.
Many won't and many buy little stoves thinking that they are gonna save a few bucks when really for about the same money we could get them a furnace to heat the whole home with little wood and loading times.

Since we have become a sponsor I thought maybe it was time to explain where we differ and why we are a better built furnace than most.

Now if it appears I'm an A hole for pointing out the diffeneces will then maybe this forum is not for us & I'll advise we back away from Arborist.com

I've already been called out as a liar from a guy that has very little information yet he thinks he knows my business.

I apologise if I've hurt feelings here. It was not my intent.

Later guys.

 

[Highbeam]

Since we have become a sponsor I thought maybe it was time to explain where we differ and why we are a better built furnace than most.

Now if it appears I'm an A hole for pointing out the diffeneces will then maybe this forum is not for us & I'll advise we back away from Arborist.com

The proper way to do this would be to start a thread titled, " Yukon furnaces are the best and here's why". Instead you appear to start a valuable thread about a tax credit issue that applies to ALL stoves and then present a sales pitch instead.

I think we all appreciate your company's investement in the arboristSITE.com as a contributor with great knowledge on pertinent issues. If we want a sales pitch then we can visit the Yukon site.

 

[046]

there's absolutely nothing wrong with claiming your product is the best.

but you'd better be ready to back it up. please don't pay no attention to folks that call you a liar. sometimes that's just the way it is on AS. one needs a thick skin to hang out on AS for very long.

I've had the same exact thing done to me multiple times. instead of running I held my ground for I knew what I posted was right.

example:

I'm using an unusual JUCA wood burner that uses an open burn system. it's a HUGE wood stove with a 12cubic feet fire box built out of 1/4in plate steel. it can handle 2ft x 22in diameter logs.

it has the largest heat exchanger area that I'm aware of any modern wood stove (except Russian fireplace which is not modern). naturally it's got one of the best heat exchangers anywhere. quite possibly the best.

it's not recommended but JUCA has the ability to burn green wood cleanly without creosote. after operating temps are reached... barely any smoke comes out of chimney.

now the above statement runs contrary to conventional wisdom and I've been called a liar because of it. but I've backed up my claims with pictures and loads of data. my chimney has never needed cleaning after multiple inspections for 3.5 seasons. average wood consumption is 4.5 cords for a well insulated 2500sf single level home in Tulsa, OK.

at first blush your claims is similar to my claim that JUCA burns green wood cleanly.
Now back it up!

Thanks for the heads up.
I figured this might happen, but I felt like it needed to be said.
We are the cadillac in the industry ....none others are UL listed as I've stated.
UL is a testing facility....if they have not come out ,done the testing and have a serial number on the appliance it is not UL listed.
It may have been tested by some other company to the UL standard ,but it's not UL listed.
And really if your stove heats your home...great.
Many won't and many buy little stoves thinking that they are gonna save a few bucks when really for about the same money we could get them a furnace to heat the whole home with little wood and loading times.

Since we have become a sponsor I thought maybe it was time to explain where we differ and why we are a better built furnace than most.

Now if it appears I'm an A hole for pointing out the diffeneces will then maybe this forum is not for us & I'll advise we back away from Arborist.com

I've already been called out as a liar from a guy that has very little information yet he thinks he knows my business.

I apologise if I've hurt feelings here. It was not my intent.

Later guys.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Great reponse 046.
Not a bad idea.
No selling just facts of our furnaces.
If anyone wants to compare they can go against these facts.

UL file ...
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind.new/LISEXT/1FRAME/srchres.html


140,000 btu in 112,000 output.
Here's a cut away of the furnace..
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/EAGLEIHUSKY/tabid/55/Default.aspx
It has 8-12"x6"x2" 3200 degree firebrick...thickest in the industry.

You can see the secondary air tubes splitting the brick.
Patented..
United States Patent 4343288
Abstract:A furnace for the burning of wood in a combustion chamber to generate heat. Primary air is brought in at a grate level of the furnace. Secondary air is brought in through a secondary air inlet, past a preheat chamber and through a secondary air duct to be expelled through holes in the secondary air duct at the top level of flames. The secondary air is preheated in the preheat chamber which is located between the combustion chamber of the furnace and the outside air inlet. A heat exchanger in the top of the oven transfers the heat from the combustion chamber of the furnace to ductwork for distribution.

OIL BURNER OPTION FOR AUXILIARY
FUEL If oil is your preference for a back-up fuel,
your burner will be a Wayne model MSR 321-009
hi-efficiency oil burner. Features are a Stainless
Steel flame retention head and Honeywell Premium
controls. It is certified by Underwriters Laboratories
to provide up to 80.1 % steady state efficiency. If at
some time in the future, you decide you would
rather have LP or Natural Gas as your backup fuel,
this burner can be interchanged with our Wayne
P250 AF DIN gas burner.

MORE HEAT EXCHANGE SURFACE
MEANS LESS HEAT UP THE CHIMNEY
The secondary heat exchanger is made up of type
304 Stainless Steel tubes, which the heat produced
by the furnace, must pass through before entering
the chimney. This feature increases the heating
surface to 54 square feet. Standard gas or oil
furnaces have only 25-30 square feet.



so......to compare a 112,000 btu output multifuel furnace none have 54 s/f of heat exchange surface area, an afterburn...(patented)
180 lbs. of 3200 degree firebrick(thermal mass)
Flue gas temps of 400 as most manuals I've read all run barometric draft regulators faster than .03" of WC.which means more heat is going up the flue making it able to exchange less heat in those other furnaces.
Total weight near 900 lbs.

Our bigger Eagle II has all of these attributes including 81 s/f of heat exchange surface area putting out 158,000.Weight 1100 lbs.

Go here to type in the company name to see if your furnace is UL listed.
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html
It should have a metal tag with a serial number looking like this MH11057

As to the wood efficiency we have tested them here and they rated high enough for us to say they will pass the lower heat value method of testing. We are in the process of getting that all done and certified,however I've been ok'd to say we will pass.
Until we get the paperwork from the testing facility we can not make that certificate online....

as too EPA 40/60 AAA
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...n=div6&view=text&node=40:6.0.1.1.1.65&idno=40
It's for standards of preformance.....evedently the EPA felt furnace did not need to be regulated like those old stoves needed to be.
And just because it's not EPA certified does not mean it's inefficient.
The only reseaon they are certified is to meet a few states code....that's it like the state of Wash.


Here we go Layne...
Caddy weight 445lbs vs Husky/EagleI 900LBS
Dimension Caddy.. 25.75''W x 29.5''D x 48''H
Dimension Yukon.. 30"W x 56" L x 50 3/4"

Caddy has no afterburn......it's small firebox and really a very lightweight furnace compared to any of our Eagle furnaces in that 1120,000 btu output.
Caddy wants you to set the BDR at .04-.06 so therefore the flue gas temps will be hotter than ours.Theres more heat out the flue that is not going into the home.
In one place they say Warnock Hersey does the tesing in another Omni.
Well I already know the answer to that one.

They claim 71.4%...I'd call that a normal number for a lot of wood burners...nothing special
We ran 83% using bio bricks.
So Layne I can appeciate you wanting to make a point ,but you should know your facts before
calling a guy out and calling him a liar.

Oh their warranty is very short 1-5 years depending what they warrant. Yes there is a lifetime on "welds" ,but anyone would say that.
We offer 30 years.

 

[laynes69]

Warnock Hersey is a testing facility that with the label is recognized among insurance companies. UL is one company, but Warnock Hersey is another. I never said because its not EPA certified its not efficient. Your telling me your wood furnace is 80% efficient. You show your furnaces will pass for the tax credits, and prove your 80% efficiency and I will take back everything I said. And like said before, once again you are going into a sales hype on this specific thread. Open a new thread talk about yukon furnaces and thats okay. Btw If I purchased a yukon and lived in an area that has burning bans, it would be illegal to install or operate the woodfurnace without an EPA label. Saying I don't know what I'm talking about is bull, I've thrown you facts. And my furnace BTW doesn't pass washingtons limits Washington State’s limit of 4.5 grams/hr (2.5 grams if catalytic equipped). If your furnaces are what you say they are, get the testing done, get them certified and move into that direction. There are many places now that are issuing burn bans and if your stove doesn't fall into those strict guidlines for emissions and are certified then what you have is no good to that area. Therefore going back to the original thread, Is important for people to upgrade and choose stoves and such that are certified to allow for the tax credits and cleaner burns. Its for the environment. You talked down the tax credits, Which makes it a wise choice to upgrade.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Warnock Hersey is a testing facility that with the label is recognized among insurance companies. UL is one company, but Warnock Hersey is another. I never said because its not EPA certified its not efficient. Your telling me your wood furnace is 80% efficient. You show your furnaces will pass for the tax credits, and prove your 80% efficiency and I will take back everything I said. And like said before, once again you are going into a sales hype on this specific thread. Open a new thread talk about yukon furnaces and thats okay. Btw If I purchased a yukon and lived in an area that has burning bans, it would be illegal to install or operate the woodfurnace without an EPA label. Saying I don't know what I'm talking about is bull, I've thrown you facts. And my furnace BTW doesn't pass washingtons limits Washington State’s limit of 4.5 grams/hr (2.5 grams if catalytic equipped). If your furnaces are what you say they are, get the testing done, get them certified and move into that direction. There are many places now that are issuing burn bans and if your stove doesn't fall into those strict guidlines for emissions and are certified then what you have is no good to that area. Therefore going back to the original thread, Is important for people to upgrade and choose stoves and such that are certified to allow for the tax credits and cleaner burns. Its for the environment. You talked down the tax credits, Which makes it a wise choice to upgrade.

Now I've made several points which you have no answers .....you've latched on to this credit thing.
Lets face it....it's a one time credit which if you extrapolate....

So a guy buys a stove that has this credit.
Lets say the net cost was 500$ after the credit.
Let's also say that it heats part of the house like stoves normally do.
Definition of a stove...a wood burner not hooked to ducting heating a few rooms.
So there will still be a fuel bill for the parts of the home that can not be heated.
Say a 3000 s/f home gets half of the heat.
So to heat 1500 s/f would cost 2000$ a year in last years oil prices.

So if that stayed constant for 30 years if that unit wqould last that long he's spend 60,000 to heat instead 120,000. SWEEEET!

vs.
He bought a 5000$ furnace to heat his whole home.
This wood/oil furnace will take 6 cords to heat that home in Northern Mn.
He buys this wood for $150 a cord. So 900$ to displace 1200 gallons of oil at that same $3.50 a gallon oil which comes to 4200$ then minus the wood costs = $3300 is his net profit.
$3300 x 30 years is 99,000$

So he could have got the stove and paid 60,000 to the oil company to heat for 30 years or bought the furnace and paid himself 99,000.
This was the original point was I was trying to make.

Now some stoves can heat the whole home with many if's involved.
The stove would need to be big,the home would need to be well insulated and an open floor plan and maybe be in a more milder part of the country at to heat loads. Plus there would most likely be more loading times involved.

or
2 loads a day here in northern Mn. when it's 20 below with maybe a stick or 2 loaded at dinner especially when it gets to 30 below or colder.
I am assuming the home is well insulated.A load is about 5 pieces 8" in diameter 20" long and it's dry hardwood.And the stat is set to 72 degrees.

 

[046]

that sounds reasonable...

You show your furnaces will pass for the tax credits, and prove your 80% efficiency and I will take back everything I said. .

 

[laynes69]

Here is some reading material. You compared the caddy add-on to your multi-fuel furnaces. People can buy whatever, its their decision. I just feel your biased because of you working for the company. Every reply is you trying to sell a product. Before you call me a liar, look at the info.

http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/pdf/PSGCatalog.pdf

Some of these qualify for the tax credit also.

I've been called a liar and could care less. Whatever you say, others will read up on the latest technology with woodstoves. I can proudly say that my woodfurnace is the only epa certifed woodfurnace thats made! Before bashing every other model and company out there, there are other companies out there. Start a thread specifically on your yukon and their different lines of furnaces. I never bashed yukon, or said they are cheaply built. You get on the defense whenever someone talks about another furnace, or company. I'm done arguing, and I have no hard feeling towards any of this. I have what I purchased, and am very happy with it.

 

[046]

as a point of reference there are others that also achieve extremely high heat exchanger efficiencies ... my JUCA is a massive 1/4 inch thick steel hollow structure that weights 750+lbs. it's design uses the existing firebrick floor, adding yet more mass to absorb heat.

it's got a 12 cubic feet firebox surrounded by air chambers constructed from 1/4in steel. have not measured total sq ft of heat exchange area, but it's much larger than 54sq ft.

outside makeup air is fed from bottom. inside walls were carefully designed to produce max draft. has a noticeable venturi effect when door is closed. much like a blast furnace effect.

extremely high temps are achieved... forced air has to be operating or wood stoves temps get way too hot. heat exchanger really yanks down flue temps. flue damper is carefully adjusted to slow down exhaust. damper is carefully adjusted with CO meter to make sure smoke level doesn't go below door opening.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

As far as Yukon being the only UL listed wood furnace....at least it was when I sold them. I was one of the first in my area to sell them, was not much else on the market at that time....and, I'm not a spokesman or shill for Yukon. I can personally vouch for the fact that they make an excellent product.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Here is some reading material. You compared the caddy add-on to your multi-fuel furnaces. People can buy whatever, its their decision. I just feel your biased because of you working for the company. Every reply is you trying to sell a product. Before you call me a liar, look at the info.

http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/pdf/PSGCatalog.pdf

Some of these qualify for the tax credit also.

I've been called a liar and could care less. Whatever you say, others will read up on the latest technology with woodstoves. I can proudly say that my woodfurnace is the only epa certifed woodfurnace thats made! Before bashing every other model and company out there, there are other companies out there. Start a thread specifically on your yukon and their different lines of furnaces. I never bashed yukon, or said they are cheaply built. You get on the defense whenever someone talks about another furnace, or company. I'm done arguing, and I have no hard feeling towards any of this. I have what I purchased, and am very happy with it.

More uneducated making half true statements is more what I'd call it Layne ,but that's ok. Your job and expertise is not in the heating industry.
Your doing the best you can and I admire that. I also think that to have convictions is a great thing,WTG Layne.
You say I've turned this into one big pitch and your right on the money.
You sorta helped me do that you know.
I explained and defended our furnace line to the best of my ability when you made your claims.
So in the end...I'm happy for you and the fact your heating bills are real low with the aid of your Caddy.
Many more will be coming to the market as these liquid fuel prices rise once again.

So lets just agree to disagree and move on with the day.

 

[046]

keith... I don't see anywhere anyone has said Yukon is not a good product. in fact everyone has agreed, Yukon makes an excellent wood burner.

your antagonizer has already stated.... prove Yukon gets energy credits and is 80% energy efficiency. then he will taken everything back and shut up.

if it was me... I'd jump at the chance to clear thing up.

personally the UL rating does little for me. but the 80% efficiency rating means everything. also have to agree with your premise that the energy credit while nice, should not be the only reason to chose which product to go with.

 

[Highbeam]

I thought you were a "loser" if you accepted the energy credit? To not qualify for that credit is very telling despite company literature to the contrary.

 

[laynes69]

I got my reply back tonight about my woodfurnace. The manufacturer is going to issue me a certificate for the tax credit! That will put my purchase down to 1400.00! Thats 600.00 back on the furnace.

 

[barkeatr]

hMM...THIS Is really interesting stuff.
my post is off this thread, but would be interested in hearing what the yukon rep would have to say about my aftermarket "modification" of my central boiler outdoor heater..

I will probably start another thread. but im trying to lure the yukon rep into this conversation...see what he has to say. After by CB ####s the bed i will put a yukon product in its place..

Basically i have built a slash greenhouse/insulated building around my central boiler, it has a wood storage component that is not insulated..

My CB is sitting in the insulated portion of the greenhouse, all except the fill door. Im hoping to take my CB out of the extreme cold to improve its performance, and of course to grow a few plants. I have put a magic heat heat exchanger in the chimney and it blows heat into the insulated space that its in,the greenhouse. I burn a LOT of wood..the CB is a hog. I cut 75 percent of my own wood and enjoy every minute, and my driving goal is to have a greenhouse...but still i would be interested to know what other folks have experienced, or would even guesstimate what kind of performance difference i might see by taking my boiler out of the 35 below temperatures into...warmer temps. Im guessing i will be able to keep the greenhouse at least above freezing when its 25 below at night, and probably 80 or 90 degrees on a sunny winter day. I know the plants will suffer I will work that out...and Im not lookign for calculatoins and burning up this kind of effort ..just some comments...

I am aware that i could burn out my magic heat when my CB occasionally burns its chimney out...but at the same time I have seen the magic heats survive chimney fires before and they are not prohibitivlye expensive..

Im in the final stages, its framed, roofed and it performed the wood storage function this winter...I just installed the solar glazing... i need to insulate the non glazed greenhouse walls next...so i suppose i should simply wait untill winter to find out but im wondering if anyone has any comments on doing simliar things

Tim

 

[CrappieKeith]

Hey Tim.....not sure what your asking me here?

There's just a few hang ups I have about owb's.
The big water jackets cause the fires to go into a smolder for too long of periods making a bunch of creosote.Water can hold heat for a long time keeping the stat from calling for heat.So the cold stack manufacture creosote.A faster cycling call for heat would help that issue.
Then when they come on they smoke like heck. That would not be so bad ,but the short stacks on them leave the smoke at ground level.

They could use a 1000 degree source of combustion air into the firebox over the fire to burn off most of the smoke.Achieving those other 30-40% of the btu's available.Then you could get rid of your stack reclaimer.

That's all I got Tim...other than that I like what they can do.

I mean there are other minor issues but those would be more personal issues rather than main operation/equipment type issues.