Enforcing Safety

[ozzy42]

There are different levels of expertise and proffessionalism in just about everything we do.

Should the auto repair shop down the street report me when I change my oil in the driveway.After all ,they have to have contaiment pits for all of their waste,and keep a paper trail of all such fluids?

 

[Metals406]

There are different levels of expertise and proffessionalism in just about everything we do.

Should the auto repair shop down the street report me when I change my oil in the driveway.After all ,they have to have contaiment pits for all of their waste,and keep a paper trail of all such fluids?

I'm totally turning you in for that Ozzy.

 

[pdqdl]

Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. ...

That isn't necessarily true. I know a number of landscapers that pay their help better than the "anglos" because they want to keep them happy. not because they can get them to work cheaper.

Some employers are convinced that the work ethic that comes from growing up in a 3rd world country is exactly what fills their job description best.

I don't hire any illegals because the difficulties are too great, and because I really don't want to. On the other hand, I occasionally go down to the Guadalupe community center and hire some day help for cash when we have a big job that I need help for. I could go to the temp labor service, but they only give me useless drunks that won't work.

I like the illegals and their work ethic. I don't like the fact that they are here sucking our out social resources without contributing, I resent any other US citizen that does the same.

We can thank our politicians for most of that problem, and our society for voting them in.

 

[BRCCArborist]

I just don't understand why people waste their time doing this silly stuff. Being a lurker taking pictures of a couple lawn jockies being goofs? If you are really concerned about their welfare, tell THEM what they are doing wrong, hell, offer them groundperson positions and train them yourself. But don't be a total rat about it and just automatically turn them into OSHA. OSHA won't even deal with this, in case you haven't noticed, they only approach companies when it is convenient for them to do so, i.e. when they are driving around on the taxpayer's dime and spot them. It was time better spent elsewhere.

My company does safety trainings and invites several other tree companies in the area to join, we have had up to 5 companies in the past with us and will accept anyone that wants to learn. I would rather teach people and learn something new myself than just snapping pictures of infractions (Including no double tie in there Mr. HighHorse ) I just think you could have handled the situation a whole lot better, that's if safety is truely your agenda.

 

[newsawtooth]

Opening a dialogue

Your absolutely wrong, this thread isnt about if them guys are wrong with their work practices. Its about weather BCMA was a little tattle tail punk to hide across a parking lot and take picture of them two idiots and turn them in. Then post some pics of his super crew doing stuff that in fact is far more dangerous then what they were doing.

This may not of been the intent of BCMA when he started this POS thread but thats what it has evolved to, so next time try and follow along before you toss your two cents in. From reading your reply your very knowledgeable in the area and most likely formed your opinion before you really read this thread... If you read any of it at all. In my honest opinion BCMA is MORALLY wrong in his actions in the way he handle the situation. If he was so concerned about their practices stop and take 5 minutes to educate these lads, A. about safety and B. about the potential fines for the way they are working. In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.

I read the the thread and my opinion changed several times. Further more, I do not claim more than a cursory understanding of OSHA regulations. What it boils down to is how improperly trained and equipped tree workers effect those that take the job and risks seriously. You want personal accountability? Act like adults and equip and train your employees properly, follow ANSI standards and review safe work practices. You really think that you can just drag an injured employee to the woods if they are not properly documented, trained, or equipped? If you truly believe this, then your arrogance is surpassed only by your ignorance. This job is worth neither fatalities or injuries. I don't pretend that all risks can be eliminated completely, but they can be mitigated. You want to be treated and paid like a professional? Then act like one. Because damn sure if you don't get involved and become proactive, the government will do it for you, and you likely won't like what they come up with.

I cannot even respond to the end of your post. How is this relevant?

 

[ozzy42]

I'm totally turning you in for that Ozzy.

I don't actually do that anymore,,,my boy is old enough to do it .








Oh crap,,now I'm gonna have child labor issues to deal with:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Metals406]

I don't actually do that anymore,,,my boy is old enough to do it .








Oh crap,,now I'm gonna have child labor issues to deal with:hmm3grin2orange:

Not to mention me turning you in to the EPA. . . Oh, and since you don't use an approved lift, pit, or other device--you're getting turned in for "unsafe work practices" as well.

The only thing left for you to do is club a baby seal! :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[ozzy42]

I'll have to settle for a baby manatee

 

[treevet]

I just wandered thru this thread and wondered if Mr. Perfect also reports unsecured roofers, unhelmeted motorcyclests and dogs not crossing at an intersection with the appropriate light indicated. He is aware of violations in these issues as well.

I have played racquetball for 35 years. I play at the top level in our major city still at age 60. I could do quite well on an international/national level in my age group although do not have time to chase tournaments.

In the last 10 years it has become mandatory to wear eye protection in tournaments so I wear them. The ball can travel over 150 mph and in the pros over 200 mph. But at the top levels players are very adept at where the ball is going to be hit to while watching an opponent.

I choose to not wear eye protection in my top level club leagues. Never have put a pair on in 35 years of 2 leagues plus per week all year long. Playing with fogged up glasses is like having sex with a rubber to me (do you see tennis players wearing them?). Never been hit in the eyes either. The club owners knows, being a personal friend of mine that I will only hold myself responsible if any accident occurs. It has always been this way.

Few weeks ago while playing, an older (like me) lower level player comes up to our group after matches and looks at me and asks me pointedly "why don't you wear safety glasses?"

My reply was "Why are you so concerned about my eyes. I have a huge pimple on my a$$, are you concerned about that as well?" Didn't get a reply but I got my point across I think.

 

[fishercat]

what you don't realize is.............

But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.

I know how much good safety equipment costs and the disposal costs of wood debris can be very expensive these days. Think how much easier everyone could compete if they use used bailing rope for climbing, and at the end of the job they just drove to the outskirts of town and dumped the wood on the side of the road. That is the kind of stuff that happens in places where there are no laws or they are not enforced.

It has been shown hundreds of thousands of times in the business world that when people keep lowering prices to compete they all get to a point where the work or the product is a commodity and nobody makes any money. The granite countertop business where I live is like that now. 10-15 years ago it was hard to find granite fabricators and to get quotes from them and their prices varied quite a bit. I got 5 quotes for my contertops three years ago. All of them were delivered to me within 4 hours of faxing the drawings in to the fabricators. From lowest to highest price there was only a difference of $500 on a ~$5k job. That is a commodity and it all happened in <10 years because everybody with a wet saw and a grinder started a granite business.

If we let one group sink to a lower level they will drag everyone down with them. Just a thought. If we don't police ourselves then that allows more unscrupulous people to slip through the cracks and get away with what they do longer and thus justify it.

One final point, how would folks react if those workers were of a group that was obviously not US Citizens and they were here illegally? Would that change their opinion? Something to ruminate on.

Stihl-O-Matic and i live in the land of laws and rules.this is Connecticut,there is a law about everything.down to damn near how many breaths you take in an hour.if there isn't a law yet,wait a day or two.

has this stopped illegal activity? not at all.i actually think it has made it worse because it is that much more difficult and EXPENSIVE to do things on the up and up.i see more shady crap here than i did when i lived in Knoxville TN and there is very little regulation and much cheaper to operate down there.

 

[fishercat]

my insurance premiums have been the same for years.

Safety, standards, work ethic......

Maybe BCMA should have gone to them or their boss first...whatever you think or don't of what he did....

Those guys in the pictures are contributing to higher insurance premiums, the appearance of dumbing down our profession, shortening their expected lifespan (chance of a bad accident) and limiting their earning potential (by not being taught or learning how to do this properly and therefore able to command a higher price)

I have OFTEN stopped on the side of the road to talk to Government crews working badly, safety and technique...the guys just say 'that's what we've been told to do' 'just got to get the job done'...I have taken pictures...sent polite but firm emails to the relevant superintendants...what happens...a big fat NOTHING! Next stop will be the newspaper and the talk show...I've given you the chance to solve this in house, offered my services, even been engaged to train some of them, but they STILL ignore best practice.

Time for the gloves to come off, because they are publicly putting a bad face on what I have chosen to have as a career and invested time and money to get right!!

has actually gone down a little.i actually agree with Nails.fraud is the biggest enemy of insurance premiums.

 

[Dadatwins]

This thread really does show the sad state of affairs our industry and country is in. I am not one for government regs, but the folks working unsafely according to industry standards that were developed by the industry 'meaning those in the business' put a sad picture on our business. They probably got the job because they were the lowest bidder, great free enterprise at work. They were probably the lowest bidder because they did not have the expense of all the safety gear and training that goes with it. No idea if they were insured, probably subbing for the bigger contractor that originally bid the job. Fortunatly they or none around them were hurt, but what if they were? What if someone's family member was hurt because these guys did not set up a proper work zone? Would they still be OK and be defended as just a couple of hard workers trying to make a living? Or would the story change? The folks that pay insurance, buy the safety gear, abide by the industry standards unfortunatly are the ones that end up paying the fines. The uninsured hacks that have nothing walk away free because they have nothing. Can't say I agree with calling the agency to make the report, I have been tempted many times myself, but I don't live in a glass house like most. I do agree it is frustrating to see this type of activity going on and being powerless to fix it.

 

[tomtrees58]

Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.

If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.

:agree2:tom trees

 

[treevet]

These guys in the picts. and likely most of the same ilk often escape unscathed where as on the other hand the tree most of the time does not. Not much mention about not following industry standards (ANSI) on knowledgeable treatments.

 

[Curlycherry1]

I just wandered thru this thread and wondered if Mr. Perfect also reports unsecured roofers, unhelmeted motorcyclests and dogs not crossing at an intersection with the appropriate light indicated. He is aware of violations in these issues as well.

I have played racquetball for 35 years. I play at the top level in our major city still at age 60. I could do quite well on an international/national level in my age group although do not have time to chase tournaments.

In the last 10 years it has become mandatory to wear eye protection in tournaments so I wear them. The ball can travel over 150 mph and in the pros over 200 mph. But at the top levels players are very adept at where the ball is going to be hit to while watching an opponent.

I choose to not wear eye protection in my top level club leagues. Never have put a pair on in 35 years of 2 leagues plus per week all year long. Playing with fogged up glasses is like having sex with a rubber to me (do you see tennis players wearing them?). Never been hit in the eyes either. The club owners knows, being a personal friend of mine that I will only hold myself responsible if any accident occurs. It has always been this way.

Few weeks ago while playing, an older (like me) lower level player comes up to our group after matches and looks at me and asks me pointedly "why don't you wear safety glasses?"

My reply was "Why are you so concerned about my eyes. I have a huge pimple on my a$$, are you concerned about that as well?" Didn't get a reply but I got my point across I think.

Sounds just the kind of logic the logger I described above used days before a 4" maple tree blew over in the wind and killed him. He said 30+ years in the business made him uniquely aware of what was around him and because he had so much seat time in his skidder that he did not need a hardhat. At lunch the day he died he said that he had never been so much as taped on the head by anything in the woods. By 4:00 pm he was dead.

 

[GlenWimpy]

We had a storm in Memphis 2 months ago!

EVERYBODY WAS AN INSTANT TREE CUTTER! The dump was full of people with a small trailer and pickup , most were stuck in the mud or broken down! It was actually quite funny!

Whats not funny was a fireman , OFF DUTY , trying to cut a tree , it fell on him , now he's dead with two little girls and a wife. He asked my friend , owner of a large well equipped , SAFE , tree company two hours before the tree fell on him for some advice!

And out of town people are the WORST!

 

[outofmytree]

I get the bit about calling OSHA being bad form. It is common in Australia for "dobbers" to be considered worse than criminals. That isn't my own opinion but, like I said, it is common here. What I don't get is how the appalling lack of safe work practices shown in the OP is not uniformly condemned.

For those who have posted here that they see nothing wrong with the standards shown in those photographs I sincerely hope you never have the misfortune to work with someone like that. Or help them hold their leg together whilst you pray for the ambulance to get there faster. Or have to call their wife, a friend of ten years, and tell her she has to ID her husbands body because you are not next of kin. Yes, not wearing chaps when you climb was and still is potentially fatal. Hit an artery up there and all the skill and luck in the world will not save you.

I have posted a few photgraphs with OHS breaches in them and will take my lumps if they call me. I have no fear of being inspected. My only fear on the job is that someone will get hurt if I don't take responsibility for EVERYONES safety on my site.

 

[Dadatwins]

I get the bit about calling OSHA being bad form. It is common in Australia for "dobbers" to be considered worse than criminals. That isn't my own opinion but, like I said, it is common here. What I don't get is how the appalling lack of safe work practices shown in the OP is not uniformly condemned.

For those who have posted here that they see nothing wrong with the standards shown in those photographs I sincerely hope you never have the misfortune to work with someone like that. Or help them hold their leg together whilst you pray for the ambulance to get there faster. Or have to call their wife, a friend of ten years, and tell her she has to ID her husbands body because you are not next of kin. Yes, not wearing chaps when you climb was and still is potentially fatal. Hit an artery up there and all the skill and luck in the world will not save you.

I have posted a few photgraphs with OHS breaches in them and will take my lumps if they call me. I have no fear of being inspected. My only fear on the job is that someone will get hurt if I don't take responsibility for EVERYONES safety on my site.

Very well said. Folks that see nothing wrong with this style of work are the problem in the tree care industry. It is the reason insurance rates will continue to rise, treework/workers will never be respected, and prices will be all over the map. Saying that they are OK to work like that because they did not get hurt is a ridiculus statement in my opinion. People HAVE been hurt working like that and will continue to be hurt. Granted PPE will not prevent all injuries, but the industry has evolved to recognize the hazards and require safety equipment for the job. Not that many years ago football players did not have to wear helmets, can you imagine the carnage seeing a game played today without one? Although some would probably enjoy it more.

 

[treemandan]

I don't see why everybody got mad at the idea of calling ohsa on the lanscrapers, Hey THEY"RE LANDSCRAPERS!, you are supposed to aim for em. ( at least that is what I tthought). I drive by one there trucks parked on the road I usually holler something derogetory ( mostly about the lack of road cones while they got there truck parked in the middle of the road or somewhere just as stupid. They are all idiots.

 

[treevet]

If he lived thru that little 4" tree on the head bcs of a hh he prob woulda been flattened by a garbage truck on the way home.

Sometimes it is just your day. Everyone has that day.

(in reference to Curleycherries post above)

And, yes, there is something/s uniquely different about someone with decades of experience as opposed to a green man.

But the legislation (ANSI) has to direct their standards to the dumbest moron out there and everyone has to be governed by those laws. It is the way it is and always will be.