Extreme leaner. How would you drop it?

[bitzer]

The problem is, the chain won't eliminate the risk its just a backstop or damage control for when it happens. Getting to the point skill wise for not needing the backstop is the real goal here. Personally, I've never seen anyone do such a thing or even talk about doing it until I came to this sight. Makes me wonder how common of a practice it really is. Like is this some thing professionals do or just homeowners.

Totally agee with that. I've never heard of chain wrapping til here either. Unless it was storm damage that had to be climbed and topped first. To me it screams of amateur hour. I've seen trees shear like lightning. Collapse, explode, etc. What if it splits out beyond the chain wrap?

 

[bitzer]

Can't stop now. Some say we are over figuring this little tree. Yes but there is a lot at stake. I think it was Gologit who said experienced fallers are dying at alarming regularity due to tree accidents.

My question for the day is "boring the heart out"? I have read it often but have never seen the dimensions and now we have Marshy who I'm guessing is an engineer (conclusion from the force vector diagrams) and bitzer who we all know is the real deal for falling trees in the real world. Let's say we have a solid 20" hard leaning tree and not interested in saving the log or donating a saw or blood to the effort. We start with an open shallow face 4" deep. We now have 16" of wood left and want to bore the heart out, starting from the center of the notch. Dimensions of the heart bore? How about 6" wide and 9" deep?

I am not discounting a chain wrap, coos bay, basic limb cut procedure, or any other viable options and as always there are no guarantees.

Go as deep with the face as you can, until it starts to pinch really. Then bore the heart in a few inches from one side of the hinge to the other. Leaving maybe 2-3" of wood on either side of the hinge. Be careful when you bore the heart too deep, for one the tree can pinch your bar. Two:if the tension wood is not great the tree could go on you. The goal here is to remove as much compression wood as possible. Then when you backcut you always start in the compression wood and move to the tension wood. I've got numbered diagrams of real trees I've cut that were leaning hard. I just need to find those pics.

 

[olympyk_999]

To me it screams of amateur hour

to you, thats what he is!...

I've seen trees shear like lightning. Collapse, explode, etc. What if it splits out beyond the chain wrap?

all of these things you have seen WITHOUT a chain...so putting a chain on it wont make it any worse...
what if it still blows up if he cuts it like you say?

 

[olympyk_999]

. Getting to the point skill wise for not needing the backstop is the real goal here

When I started out I was given a saw and told put a notch here and cut here. It was a 30 second tutorial from a guy who usually backcuts everything. Then he left for the day. I had several hundred ugly and often hard leaning boxelders to cut. I learned a lot that week or two alone

cutting one leaner aint going to make this guy a pro...it takes practice just as you had

 

[Trx250r180]

Could always hire James to climb it and chunk it out ..........

 

[olympyk_999]

Could always hire James to climb it and chunk it out ..........

too easy for these guys...clear a road, then hire a crane... pull it out in one shot

 

[HuskStihl]

I doubt you'll be able to get much more than thru the bark on the bottom before you pinch u'r bar. If you don't have a spare bar/saw, I'd just bore in from the side leaving a couple inches on the top and bottom. Then just release from the top (stump side of the cut, as long a bar as possible, on u'r toes).

 

[Erik B]

I thought I would add a couple of videos I fond on the subject.
So this way is bad? And should not be done?


Here is one that I think is showing the coos bay and another that I do not know if has been brought up.

What is the difference between the bore cut that is shown in the first video and the humbolt cut? They seem like 2 names for the same cut.

 

[CoreyB]

on something like this...yeah it is... you don't start on the most difficult task first...you work up to it
all of this advise you give is good, but you give it as if you would be the one doing the work (with your experience/saws) no one even knows what this guy has for a saw, never mind experience...who knows, maybe he has never even cut a tree down before?
or his saw could be some turd with a chain so dull it can't even cut butter...is this the kind of saw you would want to cut a tree like this??? don't think so!
you say you have learned this stuff the hard way and lucky you haven't been hurt...this guy might not be as lucky...
put a chain on it!, then if he still wants to screw around with fancy cuts, he can with out it blowing up in his face!
he could even leave it a little loose, then he could see if it came apart during the cut...

Just to clarify, I have been cutting wood sense a young boy. I am not a pro and have no delusions.
I have had enough close calls to know that if possible a second opinion is not a bad thing.
I have cut leaners just never one to such an extreme.
The tree is only about 15 " so yes making it on the small side for a bore cut. It is still a living tree and seems to be in good health.
I refer to the bore or plunge method because we have always cut a lot of hickory and it has a bad tendency ti chair, and this is how I was taught to cut all hickory and leaners.
As far as saws I was going to use a dolmar 6100 24" bar and new or fresh sharpened chain. I sharpen my own chains with a granberg style jig and have for some time.
I also have an 056 super with up to a 36" bar and a little 192c with a 14" bar. I will probably leave the 192 in the shed for this one.

I really do love all the feed back and input on this.
I would also agree and point out I would never recommend someone with little experience to even think about cutting trees like this one. It is very dangerous and can easily kill someone if went about the wrong way.
That is why even with my years of experience cutting down trees I wanted some experienced input to try and find the safest way possible.

 

[Gypo Logger]

If a plunge cut was used, it would be the first cut I'd put in, then a shallow undercut and a fast blast thru the backcut.
Most chairing is the result of the deadly dutchman and a slow cutting saw.

 

[CoreyB]

If a plunge cut was used, it would be the first cut I'd put in, then a shallow undercut and a fast blast thru the backcut.
Most chairing is the result of the deadly dutchman and a slow cutting saw.

That is why I will use the 6100. The 056 is just big enough I am to slow and clumsy with to use it. Plus if I pinch the 6100 I can easily remove the power head. The 056 has a outboard clutch and it does not seem to help the weight or handling. 《《 a poke at a husky fan boy friend.

 

[Gypo Logger]

That is why I will use the 6100. The 056 is just big enough I am to slow and clumsy with to use it. Plus if I pinch the 6100 I can easily remove the power head. The 056 has a outboard clutch and it does not seem to help the weight or handling. 《《 a poke at a husky fan boy friend.

You could also make your standard felling cuts 25- 35 degrees away from natural lean, which would reduce the weight of the tree and cause the tree to fall safely into the intended direction of fall. The backcut should be sawn with conviction.
If there is any knee knocking or apprehension, it is safer to drop the saw and run away, screaming like a little girl. Lol

 

[hardpan]

Welcome Corey. Good post.

 

[Philbert]

What is the difference between the bore cut that is shown in the first video and the humbolt cut? They seem like 2 names for the same cut.

Thought others would have jumped in on this. Sometimes there are different names for similar things, but you are mentioning 2, completely different things.

'Humbolt' is a type of face cut, made in the side of the tree in the direction of desired fall. There are other types of face cuts as well.

'Bore cutting' is done to the center of the trunk, instead of using a conventional back cut on the opposite side of the tree. There are other types of cuts (including the mentioned 'Coos Bay') which may also be used in certain situations

Some basic information may be found in these pages:
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts.html
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/special_techniques.html

More exhaustive information here:
Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent, Paperback - 182 Pages.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...ional-Timber-Falling-Book-by-Douglas-Dent.axd

Normal caveats: reading this stuff does not qualify one for using these methods, but can help you understand the differences, or what some others are talking about.

Philbert

 

[Gypo Logger]

Sometimes additional force is required with those pesky leaners.

 

[Marshy]

Sometimes additional force is required with those pesky leaners.View attachment 457251

Interesting body position.

 

[Erik B]

Thought others would have jumped in on this. Sometimes there are different names for similar things, but you are mentioning 2, completely different things.

'Humbolt' is a type of face cut, made in the side of the tree in the direction of desired fall. There are other types of face cuts as well.

'Bore cutting' is done to the center of the trunk, instead of using a conventional back cut on the opposite side of the tree. There are other types of cuts (including the mentioned 'Coos Bay') which may also be used in certain situations

Some basic information may be found in these pages:
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts.html
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/special_techniques.html

More exhaustive information here:
Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent, Paperback - 182 Pages.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...ional-Timber-Falling-Book-by-Douglas-Dent.axd

Normal caveats: reading this stuff does not qualify one for using these methods, but can help you understand the differences, or what some others are talking about.

Philbert

I thought I saw a video some years ago on this site that had a guy doing a humbolt cut that involved a face cut followed by a bore cut behind the face and leaving some holding wood on the back. I have done this style of taking down some smaller trees, less than 12" in diameter, and it worked great. Guess I still have some studying to do on the different ways to drop trees. Mother Nature drops most of the ones I cut up for firewood.

 

[Philbert]

I thought I saw a video some years ago on this site that had a guy doing a humbolt cut that involved a face cut followed by a bore cut behind the face . . .

You may have. I was addressing the terminology question. A Humbolt face cut can be used with a conventional back cut, and bore cutting can be used with other types of face cuts. There is also a technique taught that uses an 'open' face cut (90°) and a bore cut, so that the tree remains attached to the stump almost all of the way down for control.

Different combinations of cuts may be used for different situations, or based on your training and experience. That's one of the interesting parts of these discussions.

Philbert

 

[Erik B]

You may have. I was addressing the terminology question. A Humbolt face cut can be used with a conventional back cut, and bore cutting can be used with other types of face cuts. There is also a technique taught that uses an 'open' face cut (90°) and a bore cut, so that the tree remains attached to the stump almost all of the way down for control.

Different combinations of cuts may be used for different situations, or based on your training and experience. That's one of the interesting parts of these discussions.

Philbert

Thanks @Philbert for the clarification. I still have lots to learn. Safety is the key thing to learn.

 

[Zeus103363]

You will never have time to cut thru to the back. Dead saw.

start chopping or rot will take over!

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Thanks