"Extreme Rigging"

[Tom D.]

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article7.html

I'd like to hear from anyone familiar w/ the rigging approach described in the attached article.

How well has it worked for you?

Did you make any modifications / improvements?

What would you consider the main weaknesses or risks to this method?

Again, the premise of the article is that you're dealing with diam > 36" and small yards w/ no access for heavy equipment....gotta be done w/ ropes and MA.

 

[xtremetrees]

High speed web site. Dude likes the smaller diameter ropes it seems.
The mechanical 2-1 even 3-1 leverage when climber ropes his own is really kinda new to me I think TM (treemachine) has got years of experience doing it. Durn nice web site I didnt know it existed add it to my favorite I will. Thanks

 

[clearance]

I looked at his website, the utilty comments made me howl, typical bull, like how pruning spurless is faster and safer and he slags utility guys that are old school and safe. About this rigging idea, he says, early in his career he snapped two 25mm bull ropes rigging blocks, what? So he put over 30 000lbs on a rope while he was in the tree, good God. Look at the picture beside the words, rigging off a huge chunk, see all the rot in most of it? Whatfreaking ever, no thanks, hammer it down, in the same spot, stay safe, be smart.

 

[jonseredbred]

freakin nuts

I only read part of the article, I got bored quick, the idea of removing a tree while climbing with lags in the trunk??

I was taught to remove anything that could injure you or your equipment on the way up.

What happens if you fall or slip or whatever ? a lag in the back bone is a bad way to go.

grow some balls and drop crotch it down. If your breaking ropes, you might want to cut smaller.

sometimes I think the desire to develop new rigging overpowers common sense.

 

[rebelman]

I like the vibe of the website alot. I too will add it to my favorites to explore another day.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Sounds like someone likes to take chances and try new heard of things. I will bet I get to the ground cut faster than that guy just by cutting what I can handle and place where I want it. More physical work but dead on. My wood is cut to handle and my ground guys like not to have to deal with roping and bucking. Not that they can't, but then I am in production!
Jeff Lovstrom

 

[Ekka]

I've emailed him.

He's also know as Lazarus2 on another board. He's no wet neck and offers training, it'll be good to get his story on this technique.

I find it a little hard to picture his story and need some clarification.

Clearance, if you watched the Art & Science of Practical rigging videos you would see some demo's of the dynamic forces involved in large rigging.

There may well have been reasons for it, rope wear, knot, repeated bashing of the log into the lowering rope, over wrapped on the bollard etc.

One of the biggest problems with large loads is you need say 3 wraps to control it, but the weight of the rope and the 3 wraps gives a heck of a shock load in the piece, that and also the piece smacking into the spar on many occasions.

Hopefully the guy chimes in and lets us know the full story, he's no shmuck.

 

[clearance]

I've emailed him.

He's also know as Lazarus2 on another board. He's no wet neck and offers training, it'll be good to get his story on this technique.

I find it a little hard to picture his story and need some clarification.

Clearance, if you watched the Art & Science of Practical rigging videos you would see some demo's of the dynamic forces involved in large rigging.

There may well have been reasons for it, rope wear, knot, repeated bashing of the log into the lowering rope, over wrapped on the bollard etc.

One of the biggest problems with large loads is you need say 3 wraps to control it, but the weight of the rope and the 3 wraps gives a heck of a shock load in the piece, that and also the piece smacking into the spar on many occasions.

Hopefully the guy chimes in and lets us know the full story, he's no shmuck.

Yeah, yeah, whatever, this has come up before here before (the insanity and deaths involved with rigging off huge pieces). So, what you are saying is the guy either abused his ropes, making them unsafe and still used them, or he overloaded them, not good, especially a bull rope. I understand the forces involved very well Ekka, very well indeed, they can be huge, never mind the rope or other gear, what about the freaking tree? Can it take it? In one of the many arguements here, people blamed the groundsmen for a mans death because he didn't let the rope run properly, I said it then, and I repeat, if you risk your life on your groundsmans ability to let a rope run, you are retarded. Hammer it down, get good at it, then its just a little piece of lawn that gets killed, not you.

 

[Tom D.]

Clearance, if you watched the Art & Science of Practical rigging videos you would see some demo's of the dynamic forces involved in large rigging.

I've seen the series, understand the potential for generating large dynamic loads, and that's why I started the thread in the first place. If you're dealing with a large diameter tree, it needs to be cut into "short" pieces to keep the weights and dynamic loads to a manageable level. I'm picturing something like 3 to 4 feet in diameter by 12" in height.

But how to secure your bull line into something this shape? If lag bolts / screws are not the answer, what is?

 

[Ekka]

Good points.

You normally try to chunk them down like everyone says.

I have walked away from jobs where the trunk of the tree is in such a dumb spot that damage would occur. Like trunks thru decks, between 2 fibro houses on a slope etc.

Blocking down would be near impossible, rigging down a massive time consuming exercise, and as you come down the trunk the pieces get bigger and the distance to drop shorter. You usually try to fell the log but there are just some spots you cannot, and no access for cranes etc.

Be interesting to see what people do, but at the end of the day you run a business and profit is what counts.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I can throw rhem pass the deck. Dude!
Jeff Lovstrom

 

[Climb020]

Though he might have ment well I personally wouldn't use this method. Just cut the pieces smaller and lower them as normal or don't do the job.

I have done up a diagram for a way though to remove larger pieces when there is another tree on the property. It can both cut down on shock loading as well as help move the wood to a more desirable loaction. I am gonna go ponder for a bit to see if I can come up with something without useing another tree or the like.

 

[ddhlakebound]

I can throw rhem pass the deck. Dude!
Jeff Lovstrom

Did you even read what the thread is about?

The article is about rigging BIG wood over targets. When a one foot disk weighs 250-300 pounds, or more, "throw rhem pass the deck" isnt really an option.



Most times I'd just pass on a job requiring that level of rigging. At least until I'd seen/helped to use those techniques a few times.

It is an interesting idea, as long as your eye bolt anchors in well enough, and NEVER tears out, it gives you a secure point to eliminate rope slippage. Sounds like a very expensive process from a bidding point of view, compounded by the fact that if you are even considering this strategy, its a huge, expensive tree already.

 

[jonseredbred]

Did you even read what the thread is about?

The article is about rigging BIG wood over targets. When a one foot disk weighs 250-300 pounds, or more, "throw rhem pass the deck" isnt really an option.

that guy writes junk just to irritate, no he didnt read the thread. just another know it all.

 

[beowulf343]

I don't like the idea of rigging off lags. How far into the trunk are they sunk and how much force is needed to pull them out? As to making your load lighter while in the tree, now we got to carry a "petro powered drill bit" and a fair number of lags? No thanks! Then you have to remove the lags when you get the chunk on the ground. Seems too time consuming. Plus I wasn't a fan of the following statement
"Such trees are rarely done in a day."
We'd better be talking about a freaking redwood growing in the middle of a trailer park, because there have been very few really ugly trees that my crew and I have not managed to get on the ground in a 10-12 hour day.

 

[Tom D.]

Most times I'd just pass on a job requiring that level of rigging. At least until I'd seen/helped to use those techniques a few times.

It is an interesting idea, as long as your eye bolt anchors in well enough, and NEVER tears out, it gives you a secure point to eliminate rope slippage. Sounds like a very expensive process from a bidding point of view, compounded by the fact that if you are even considering this strategy, its a huge, expensive tree already.

Oh yeah, it would be a project all right!

I wonder if this would work. Instead of tying off to the eye of the lag screw, what about just passing the line through it and then securing the line w/ a running bowline as usual??? All the lag screw has to do is keep the running bowline from slipping off the piece (not carry the entire load).

 

[Climb020]

Oh yeah, it would be a project all right!

I wonder if this would work. Instead of tying off to the eye of the lag screw, what about just passing the line through it and then securing the line w/ a running bowline as usual??? All the lag screw has to do is keep the running bowline from slipping off the piece (not carry the entire load).

But why bother with the extra tools and time when you could just cut small
notches so the rope stays put. But I don't understand how his idea cuts down on shock loading. Aren't the factors still the same?


But as I was saying before on cutting down shock loading couldn't you replace the carabiner for the pulley be replaced with an extension spring. I was unable to find sizes and working loads but I am sure they can be manufactured to put up the abuse we will put them to. Experiment anyone???? Set up at dyno with an extension spring above it and measure force then do the same without it. Would love to know what the results would be. Could possibly use a clevis to connect the spring to hardware. Any ideas?

 

[Old Monkey]

There is no way I would trust a lag screw to hold. In my early attempts at cabling I used a come along to bring opposing spars closer together. I would then attach the cable to the lag screws. When I let out the come along the lags would occasionally come flying out.

I have done my share of big false crotching and have not broken a rope or a block. I have, when proximity to the ground made further rigging impossible, climbed up on top of the stick and ripped it into many pieces, then climbed back onto the stick and crosscut the pieces loose in manageable sizes. I know that breaks a lot of rules and I am not suggesting it to anyone.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Plus I wasn't a fan of the following statement
"Such trees are rarely done in a day."
We'd better be talking about a freaking redwood growing in the middle of a trailer park, because there have been very few really ugly trees that my crew and I have not managed to get on the ground in a 10-12 hour day.

Mate I have got some trees for you, if your crew can do any one of them in less than 3 days, I will declare you king.

I frequently work with trees growing on slopes of at least 30 degrees, the other day I had to abseil just to get to a position to climb a tree. Breaking down a stick thats 40 feet tall, 5 foot wide at that 40 feet sitting on a bank above a house. Its HARD on the rigging, Loosing bits through snapping ropes or ropes liberating themselves from the cookies you have had to cut to keep within weight is a common issue for me. (even if I have grooved out around the piece with the saw for the rope to sit in)

I have been trying to think of a way of making a type of device that would fit in a plunge cut and open up inside the cut to grip inside, which can then be tied or clipped into. But maybe I should stop playing with the big and ugly

 

[Ekka]

But maybe I should stop playing with the big and ugly

I couldn't be stuffed anymore. I aint gonna bust myself, my gear, or anything else for some dumb a$$ tree that belongs to some-one I dont even know. In most instances the opportunity to remove these was prior to building but some geniuses want to save everything.

Look for the drop, the machinery lift etc, all else fails and you dont have a chunking zone you better weigh it up and check your price.

I have tons of foam but that aint gonna do **** on some big a$$ed euc log. I watched this other crew of heros put one straight thru a house wall. They had to chunk down on a 45 degree embankment sliding toward the house. The house was fibro. The piece bounced and no stopping it, cleaned out their buffer logs and straight thru the wall.

Many are still there when I drive past. Some are left as huge totem poles as the boss who bid them over estimated the crews abilities and time factor.

Yeah, like Ole Monkey says, you can cut em up like pieces of pie and ditch them, but you better have good money on it.

So often I see huge trees underbid. One customer was telling me how the crew pulled up twice in a week and left both days without even starting. Stories of cranes ordered that cannot reach coz some incompetant doesn't know how to use a tape measure or what level ground means.

And customers, they'll just "oh, dont you just climb up there and cut it into pieces and lower it" like you own a magic carpet and just float around with some 6' bar on your 88!

Be good if Lazo jumps in, I bet he has some great stories.