Face cut too small?
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Ryan Willock
Addicted to ArboristSite
The pic doesn't show it too well but it was a nice level back cut about 4 inches above the apex of the face, I really didn't want that thing kicking back on me. Looking at the hinge you can now see why I moved so far up the tree for the face. Looking at that big hole its almost hard to believe that I save anything out of that tree let alone 80+% of it! It was a one to two at a time afair skidding those logs out due to where the tree had to be laid. If the tree had been on relitively flat ground then it could've been skidded in two trips.
Ryan Willock
Addicted to ArboristSite
Say any of you west coast boys wanna let me come fall with ya'll for a while? Have saws will travel!:hmm3grin2orange:
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Falling elsewhere
Ryan:
There might be jobs available working on fires.
Don't count on this. But there are times where we run out of local resources.
(This probably only has a 1 % chance of working out.)
When I worked with Burt on a fire in NE Oregon two summers back, there was a local faller they hired for only a few days cause they couldn't get anyone for a full two weeks. Nice kid, about age 20, came from a logging family and was a very decent cutter for his age but had never worked on a fire. But we were bringing in Cutters from Southern Cal for that one.
Occasionally, finding fallers is difficult.
Ryan:
There might be jobs available working on fires.
Don't count on this. But there are times where we run out of local resources.
(This probably only has a 1 % chance of working out.)
When I worked with Burt on a fire in NE Oregon two summers back, there was a local faller they hired for only a few days cause they couldn't get anyone for a full two weeks. Nice kid, about age 20, came from a logging family and was a very decent cutter for his age but had never worked on a fire. But we were bringing in Cutters from Southern Cal for that one.
Occasionally, finding fallers is difficult.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Photos from Cal
Burt:
We love you.
If there is one thing I enjoy almost as much as cutting it's looking at photos from somebody else’s screw-up. Those photos are just as good as watching video of Portland Oregon folks sliding into each others vehicles on ice. I'm headed to work on a Monday with a great frame of mind.
This could have been just fine, hidden from supervisors, quick road clean-up and who would have known?
If:
1) Vehicle parked out of reach, say two tree lengths away blocking the road.
2) Second person securing the other direction from traffic.
But then, we wouldn't have gotten to see these great photos.
So Burt:
{Nice tease, "This was one of the incidents that caused CDF to start a chainsaw training program in CA."}
Got any more photos for the good of the order?
We'd be glad to accept more high back-cut, no hinge, vehicle not moved, no road guard pictures.
All the Best
Burt:
We love you.
If there is one thing I enjoy almost as much as cutting it's looking at photos from somebody else’s screw-up. Those photos are just as good as watching video of Portland Oregon folks sliding into each others vehicles on ice. I'm headed to work on a Monday with a great frame of mind.
This could have been just fine, hidden from supervisors, quick road clean-up and who would have known?
If:
1) Vehicle parked out of reach, say two tree lengths away blocking the road.
2) Second person securing the other direction from traffic.
But then, we wouldn't have gotten to see these great photos.
So Burt:
{Nice tease, "This was one of the incidents that caused CDF to start a chainsaw training program in CA."}
Got any more photos for the good of the order?
We'd be glad to accept more high back-cut, no hinge, vehicle not moved, no road guard pictures.
All the Best
Ryan Willock
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks for posting them!
Tree Sling'r
Addicted to ArboristSite
here are some pics of a tree that had one side of the holding wood cut off with disasterous results. This was one of the incidents that caused CDF to start a chainsaw training program in CA.
There is no weight in the tops of yellow pine snags or most other snags for that matter. Pretty obvious the dufus who cut this keep sawing and hoping for it to go rather than putting in a wedge and getting some lift. Thats why its good to be able to judge a lean.
Ya, I know wedging snags is extremely dangerous, but when doing so you will hit the wedge once, then look up. Hit it once again then look up. Then you double up. Same thing, hit and look.
Pine tops will rarely fold back like white fir.
I love these pictures. Makes me feel warm inside.
Yeah I know i lose some when im on a flatt..I drill both the side to save o fibers and the middle of notch if it is big enough.......Around here when they cut a log to send to mill with the regular cut they have to add 6 iches to the cut( say a 16' logg would be cut 16'6'') so im not losing any relay on the flat.I know the louder man like my cut better then the other cutter we have..He cuts just a little the way in for the lower part of notch the bout 12'' up the tree he starts with the top part of notch..Thats how most people cuts tree here...Takes longer to cut the way they do it then the way i do it.... Thanks for the info smoke...
They are some older guys around here that cuts like that....They cut deep in front till the tree starts to get thier saw.. Then the cut the back out of it....I personal have not seen it nore do i wish to.......CRAZYYYYYYYYYYY
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
no wedge no cigar
I bet TreeSlingr is right.
Didn't establish an insurance wedge and tap it in as he cut from the back.
Kept cutting till he heard the crunch of fiberglass and metal.
I'm gonna guess that he parks his vehicle with forethought and precision the rest of his life.
I bet TreeSlingr is right.
Didn't establish an insurance wedge and tap it in as he cut from the back.
Kept cutting till he heard the crunch of fiberglass and metal.
I'm gonna guess that he parks his vehicle with forethought and precision the rest of his life.
Great pictures! One rule of thumb...when you go to the woods,park where the fallers park. You're safe there...usually. Of course if they all move their pick-ups you'll probably want to move yours too.
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Lee Bradley
ArboristSite Lurker
Humboldt’s gets the most wood out of a tree? Well sometimes if the trees have big swell it doesn't hurt to move the cut up to use a Humboldt. If the trees don't have a big swell put the cut right on the ground, much easier yarding and rubber tired machines can run right over them. How many BF is left in the stump above?
Tree Sling'r
Addicted to ArboristSite
No problem logging and yarding around my Humboldted stumps, swelled or not. Or any of my co-workers for that matter. Big dawgs, long bars and experience my friend. Besides what you think gets wasted by a "higher" stump is actually wasted on the butt of a conventional cut.
Davey Dog
ArboristSite Operative
On this matter I also have to agree with tree sling'r.... I have an old man that I work with alot of the time who uses Humboldts 85% of the time... I use to try and argue the fact that he was waisting BF by using that type of face... Although in his defense... I have personaly seen him run Humboldt faces not more than half a foot off the ground on tree with less swell.....
He is a good faller that has been doing this kind of work since I was in diapers.... I no longer argue with him, I am just glad I have some one like that around to learn from..... I also agree with big Dawgs, long bars, and mucho experience..... I will be there one day....
He is a good faller that has been doing this kind of work since I was in diapers.... I no longer argue with him, I am just glad I have some one like that around to learn from..... I also agree with big Dawgs, long bars, and mucho experience..... I will be there one day....
Kiwilogger
ArboristSite Operative
First time I have looked at this thread. Firstly, I have no experience with huge timber like that in post #1, but, IMO, its definately the face cut. (we Kiwis call that the scarf!). No real logger is gonna sit there and pose with a stick that size going over. That would be sheer lunacy!
Secondly, re: the tree falling on the truck, as already stated, theres no hingewood there at all! That is why that is a monumental balls up. But, why the hell was the truck parked where it was? That is dumb, dumb, dumb!
Just a quick question re: felling cuts. Do you guys use "wing" cuts? You make the cuts both sides of the trunk at the same height as the bottom of your scarf to a depth of approx 1/10th of the diameter of the tree, or up to about the depth of your bar. These "wing cuts" prevent draw wood, or the big long splinters left on the stump. I guess you probably don't need to with hardwoods maybe?
Secondly, re: the tree falling on the truck, as already stated, theres no hingewood there at all! That is why that is a monumental balls up. But, why the hell was the truck parked where it was? That is dumb, dumb, dumb!
Just a quick question re: felling cuts. Do you guys use "wing" cuts? You make the cuts both sides of the trunk at the same height as the bottom of your scarf to a depth of approx 1/10th of the diameter of the tree, or up to about the depth of your bar. These "wing cuts" prevent draw wood, or the big long splinters left on the stump. I guess you probably don't need to with hardwoods maybe?
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
wing cuts
Wing cuts aren't used on the West Coast except in certain species.
For some reason in most of the softwoods here, this pull wood is most commonly out of the stump or with just a little butt swell it’s outside the bole. No loss of lumber.
I was taught not to mess with the holding wood at the corners unless you're trying to do something with the tree. For instance, a faller could do a wing cut out of one side if they were trying to pull the tree the other way.
However, to reduce barber chair risk, wing cuts are a good idea. So with a heavy green leaner that you are dropping with the lean. Roger those wing cuts and make them close to the other felling cuts.
There is an issue with twisted grain where I've been told wing cuts help in some species.
Wing cuts aren't used on the West Coast except in certain species.
For some reason in most of the softwoods here, this pull wood is most commonly out of the stump or with just a little butt swell it’s outside the bole. No loss of lumber.
I was taught not to mess with the holding wood at the corners unless you're trying to do something with the tree. For instance, a faller could do a wing cut out of one side if they were trying to pull the tree the other way.
However, to reduce barber chair risk, wing cuts are a good idea. So with a heavy green leaner that you are dropping with the lean. Roger those wing cuts and make them close to the other felling cuts.
There is an issue with twisted grain where I've been told wing cuts help in some species.
Kiwilogger
ArboristSite Operative
Here in NZ, any pulled wood, even on the outside of the log downgrades the log. Potentially from a pruned butt, or an A grade log down to a lower grade, meaning in real terms, a $300-$500 log worth maybe $100-$140.
With our wing cuts, They only go into the sapwood, and really don't get used to turn a tree. For that we might pull out the dutchman, or maybe overcut the bottom of the scarf a bit. (reaching round we call it).
Often, in steep terrain when felling against the lean (yarder felling) we will reach around on the bottom side (of the tree) of the bottom cut in the scarf (did that make sense?), and only make a wing cut in the top side of the scarf. This saves a lot of work if you want the tree on the deck, and also it saves lugging your saw around to the bottom side of the tree, then back up again. It does cut off a small amount of hingewood, but is safe and an approved technique.
Fellers here in NZ get audited once a month, stumps checked etc.
What are the rules like over in your neck of the woods regarding driving trees? Here, we are allowed to put 1 tree onto another tree, but only 1 onto 1, and the driven tree must have a wedge in it. We are allowed to do bigger drives, but must have an observer.
With our wing cuts, They only go into the sapwood, and really don't get used to turn a tree. For that we might pull out the dutchman, or maybe overcut the bottom of the scarf a bit. (reaching round we call it).
Often, in steep terrain when felling against the lean (yarder felling) we will reach around on the bottom side (of the tree) of the bottom cut in the scarf (did that make sense?), and only make a wing cut in the top side of the scarf. This saves a lot of work if you want the tree on the deck, and also it saves lugging your saw around to the bottom side of the tree, then back up again. It does cut off a small amount of hingewood, but is safe and an approved technique.
Fellers here in NZ get audited once a month, stumps checked etc.
What are the rules like over in your neck of the woods regarding driving trees? Here, we are allowed to put 1 tree onto another tree, but only 1 onto 1, and the driven tree must have a wedge in it. We are allowed to do bigger drives, but must have an observer.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
many questions
I don't work for industry, so take this with a big grain of salt.
I'm not aware of any substantial penalties on a butt logs value with the fiber pull you mention. If it doesn't come out of the lumber part of the bole it doesn't affect the scale.
The main concern with a pulling here is "root pull" and how it can alter a trees fall. More than wing cuts, (a term I'm not used to other than here on arbotistsite), cutting off a roots influence - if it is near the hinge or back release - is what is emphasized.
Also, has mentioned earlier, cutting the corners at the same level as the back-cut can be part of a fallers barber chair avoidance.
Dutchman are used, but most of industry fallers do so against their company’s policy. It also can be against company policy to work under a tree being driven but driving does occur. It is preferred when removing snags for safety.
The best certification I'm aware of is what is going on in British Columbia. Go to http://www.bcfallersafe.org/pdf/FINAL - BCFSC Faller Field Exam and Evaluation - Mar 1 (2).pdf .
This is their timber feller evaluation form. There was a thread just recently on the cost of certifying new fallers and in BC it is $9,000 +. It involves a lot more training and testing that takes one to the level of being ready for this field test.
You can search this test on adobe for corner up (wing cuts - I believe), Swanson (Humboldt undercuts) and so forth.
I don't work for industry, so take this with a big grain of salt.
I'm not aware of any substantial penalties on a butt logs value with the fiber pull you mention. If it doesn't come out of the lumber part of the bole it doesn't affect the scale.
The main concern with a pulling here is "root pull" and how it can alter a trees fall. More than wing cuts, (a term I'm not used to other than here on arbotistsite), cutting off a roots influence - if it is near the hinge or back release - is what is emphasized.
Also, has mentioned earlier, cutting the corners at the same level as the back-cut can be part of a fallers barber chair avoidance.
Dutchman are used, but most of industry fallers do so against their company’s policy. It also can be against company policy to work under a tree being driven but driving does occur. It is preferred when removing snags for safety.
The best certification I'm aware of is what is going on in British Columbia. Go to http://www.bcfallersafe.org/pdf/FINAL - BCFSC Faller Field Exam and Evaluation - Mar 1 (2).pdf .
This is their timber feller evaluation form. There was a thread just recently on the cost of certifying new fallers and in BC it is $9,000 +. It involves a lot more training and testing that takes one to the level of being ready for this field test.
You can search this test on adobe for corner up (wing cuts - I believe), Swanson (Humboldt undercuts) and so forth.
