Felling question

[Hinerman]

I am no felling expert by any means so this question will seem elementary to you professionals. I was cutting up some trees for a neighbor and felling a few this weekend. I cut a notch in the face with a horizontal back cut just like everybody else. My neighbor was watching and asked me this question: How come you don't angle your back cut downward?

He thought angling the back cut down toward the holding wood (or hinge) instead of cutting it horizontal would assist the tree in falling in the intended direction. I did not know the answer. I have an idea but I want to be able to give him the correct answer from a professional. I don't want him to go buy a saw, try angling the back cut, and kill himself or drop it on his house, etc. Not that he would do that but you never know.

Thanks in advance. Hinerman

 

[RandyMac]

http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=1977067

 

[bustedup]

There are a few good reasons for not angling a back cut .........if ya gonna wedge then the action that you want of the wedge will be negated by the angle....ie instead of lifting up and forward there by committing the stick to the face it is forcing downward and will not be as effective indeed may actually bust the hinge if it a thin one (and that ain't good lol.....)

Also you will somewhat lose the intended function of the hinge


Ya can also get into the way fibre pulls and different species react etc


Also if ya bored out the back and release the strap downward ya might lose yer saw rapidly lol


Imo in short keep the back cut level with the face


It could be your friend has seen things falled by Axe as the back cut there is different but so is the facing etc etc

 

[bustedup]

Having said that Randy etc will explain better lol

 

[bitzer]

Regardless of where you remove the wood you are still removing the wood, meaning in what way would a sloped (farmer) back cut help propel the tree forward? The biggest problem (other than it looking just plain dumb) is that if the tree sits back and you try to wedge it you can blow the back out because the pressure and strain is on the wood behind it and not on the stump. Instead of lifting vertically you are pushing horizontally. Also if it sits back it will put extra strain on the hinge wood and can break off and fall one way or the other. There is greater leverage on a sat back sloping cut than a flat cut. Kind of like putting a block (fulcrum) under a pry bar when trying to lift something.

 

[bustedup]

Regardless of where you remove the wood you are still removing the wood, meaning in what way would a sloped (farmer) back cut help propel the tree forward? The biggest problem (other than it looking just plain dumb) is that if the tree sits back and you try to wedge it you can blow the back out because the pressure and strain is on the wood behind it and not on the stump. Instead of lifting vertically you are pushing horizontally. Also if it sits back it will put extra strain on the hinge wood and can break off and fall one way or the other. There is greater leverage on a sat back sloping cut than a flat cut. Kind of like putting a block (fulcrum) under a pry bar when trying to lift something.

Also sloping a back cut can be like sawing a lean in the back of the stick and depending on the balanced (ie where the hinge is how deep the face etc) you could negate the face totally and induce the stick to go backwards

 

[Gologit]

Sloping back cuts? No!

 

[Hinerman]

http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=1977067

You are right. I apologize.

Regardless of where you remove the wood you are still removing the wood, meaning in what way would a sloped (farmer) back cut help propel the tree forward? The biggest problem (other than it looking just plain dumb) is that if the tree sits back and you try to wedge it you can blow the back out because the pressure and strain is on the wood behind it and not on the stump. Instead of lifting vertically you are pushing horizontally. Also if it sits back it will put extra strain on the hinge wood and can break off and fall one way or the other. There is greater leverage on a sat back sloping cut than a flat cut. Kind of like putting a block (fulcrum) under a pry bar when trying to lift something.

Thank you. That makes complete sense to me. I knew there was a logical explanation.

 

[GASoline71]

Ask your neighbor how many trees have sat back on his back cut, or fallen the wrong way. There's your answer.

Never use a sloping back cut. People that do are lucky to still be alive.

Gary

 

[Hinerman]

Ask your neighbor how many trees have sat back on his back cut, or fallen the wrong way. There's your answer.

Never use a sloping back cut. People that do are lucky to still be alive.

Gary

He has never felled a tree. He doesn't own a chainsaw. He was just observing me and asked the "why" question. I have never used a sloping back cut and it had never crossed my mind to use one. I did not have an intelligent answer for him...now I do.

 

[northmanlogging]

I guess to add... with a sloping back cut and wedges you can split the stump wood out, causing many bad things, having a level back cut puts the cut perpendicular to the grain and therefor the compression strength of the wood, when using wedges you will be far less likely to split it out or just plain have the wood absorb the wedge, or worst case scenario if the tree sits back on your saw, you have the compression strength, rather then the easy to split of going with the grain, and the tree will most times hang out there until you can figure out how to stuff a wedge in there, as long as there is enough holding wood...

Also it can be very hard to judge how much holding wood you have left, lots of funny angles lead to optical delusions. making it very easy to overcut, or undercut the back. Both can be bad news, leading to barber chairs or side/back falling.


Either way sloping back cuts are sloppy and unsafe, mostly unsafe

 

[HuskStihl]

I used to make sloping back cuts intentionally (cause that's how I was taught) before finding AS and reading D. Dent's book. I now make sloping back cuts unintentionally

 

[Metals406]

I used to make sloping back cuts intentionally (cause that's how I was taught) before finding AS and reading D. Dent's book. I now make sloping back cuts unintentionally

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[paccity]

slopping

 

[lfnh]

:hmm3grin2orange:

yup

 

[Gologit]

Spelling correction.

slopping

Yup...you're right. You coined that phrase and we owe you for it. The correct spelling of sloping is slopping. Since HBRN left we kinda forgot that.

Plus, it's much more descriptive...SLOPPING BACK CUT...just right. :msp_biggrin:

 

[woodchuck357]

Slopping is what you do when feeding the hogs.

 

[redprospector]

Your friend evidently has no concept of gravity and how it works. Trust me, the tree does.
One of the first requirements to becoming a faller is that you have to be at least as smart as the tree.
I have asked at least 50 people to explain just how they figure a sloping back cut will help push a tree over. None of them can explain it, it's just something they think works.
When felling trees you want to maintain as much control over the tree as humanly possible. At the same time realizing that control is an illusion that nature uses on gullable people to lure them into a false sense of security, setting them up for a desaster when the time is right.
A sloping back cut does absolutly nothing to help in maintaining control, it does however do many things that have proven over and over to be a detriment to control.
Lesson 1. Wedges are used to lift a tree.
Lesson 2. A sloping back cut is an in-animate object that can not push anything. It is against the law's of physics.

Class dismissed!

Andy

 

[imagineero]

I did not have an intelligent answer for him...now I do.

Good on you for doing the legwork to give your friend a sensible response. Too much misinformation gets passed around by people just saying the first thing that pops into their head. Your friend will learn something thanks to your thoughtfulness, and you picked up a little extra info yourself

 

[imagineero]

One of the first requirements to becoming a faller is that you have to be at least as smart as the tree.
Andy

You see, now that there is why I gave up falling and became a climber; intelligence is more of a hindrance if you're thinking about getting up in a tree that you're planning on cutting down

In fairness though, most of the fallers that I've known were smarter than a tree most of the time ;-)

Shaun