Felling wedges used with axes, sledges... ?

[Den]

I'm trying to figure out why a professional logger would opt to carry a single bit axe to drive felling wedges, rather than lets say a 3 1/2 or 4 pound sledge?
If for instance, tree limbs, loose bark, or punky wood around the back cut needs to be removed, it would be faster and probably safer to buzz through the stuff quickly with the saw, instead of beating on it with an axe.
Sure the axe might help you free up a pinched saw... maybe, with a fair amount of time and effort. Other than that, I see no reason to carry an axe instead of a sledge.
Weight would be close to the same. The flat side of the single bit axe would be rougher on the plastic felling wedges than a sledge.

On those same lines, whether you have an axe, or a sledge to drive wedges, you'd want a long handle, like 36" to have more striking force and to be back farther away from the impact. Only problem I see with the 36" handle would be the awkward bulkiness of the long handle, knobbing you in the back of the head/helmet, when its worn in the belt holder.
What do you folks think.



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[Bob Hedgecutter]

Personally, for what it is worth (which is not a whole lot, just one guys opinion) you have not done a whole lot of wedge assist felling?

 

[NSEric]

If you look closely at the axes they use, you'll see they're 3 1/2 to 4 pounds and the back side is about the same size as the wedge.
There's a pouch to carry an axe on your belt, it doesnt work with hammer/sledge style heads and long handles really suck to carry around.
If you have to stack wedges you want a axe/hammer about the size of the wedge to drive it in so you're only hitting one at a time.
There's likely more reasons too.

 

[treedog14]

If you have to stack wedges you want a axe/hammer about the size of the wedge to drive it in so you're only hitting one at a time.

Right there is the only reason you need to only use an axe with a flat poll. Try it. Cut the bark off where the wedges go. Stack two, then get them in as far as you can with something that has a huge head ( sledge or otherwise) With the axe you will get a lot more lift and break fewer wedges by alternating from one to the other and keeping them togeather. With a sledge you are more apt to break the wedge or mush the head.

 

[Den]

Right there is the only reason you need to only use an axe with a flat poll. Try it. Cut the bark off where the wedges go. Stack two, then get them in as far as you can with something that has a huge head ( sledge or otherwise) With the axe you will get a lot more lift and break fewer wedges by alternating from one to the other and keeping them togeather. With a sledge you are more apt to break the wedge or mush the head.

I'd been experimenting with axe/sledge usage on wedges., as well as talking with other folks. It seems the edge of the axe's flat pole chips and breaks the wedge head more than a sledge. Unless you are able, with experience, to hit the wedge perfectly square and level with the axe.
Now in the case with double stacked wedges, yep I can see the sledge is not as good for making accurate contact with a single wedge at a time.
As far as the axe bit, I never use it. Like I said before, the axe bit might be useful in freeing up a pinched bar and chopping to relieve pressure, but I can't remember the last time I've had to do that. If I don't pay close enough attention and pinch the bar, I hammer a small wedge in and free it up.


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[Chainmale]

If for instance, tree limbs, loose bark, or punky wood around the back cut needs to be removed, it would be faster and probably safer to buzz through the stuff quickly with the saw, instead of beating on it with an axe.



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If the barks full of dirt/grit an axe saves you blunting your chain

 

[fields_mj]

I don't use wedges a lot, but what I've noticed is this. It's not so much about how hard you hit them. The tree weighs thousands of pounds. If I can move it with a wedge and an 8 lb maul, then I can probably move it almost as quickly with the same wedge and a boys ax. Since the ax is easier to swing, I focus more on using good form so that I can place my hits more accurately doing less damage to my wedges.

And then theirs carrying around a 6lb or 8lb sledge on my belt. Having spent 6 years doing residential construction and primairly using a 28 oz framing hammer, hanging 8 lbs off of a belt seems insane. Depending on how the tools is oriented (up vs down), the longer handle is either going to stick up over my shoulder or constantly be catching me in the back of the shin. Neither are good, so I prefer using a boys ax.

A boys ax and 3 wedges was all I needed to put this on the ground. Not a good pic, but the bar is 42"

 

[Den]

I don't use wedges a lot, but what I've noticed is this. It's not so much about how hard you hit them. The tree weighs thousands of pounds. If I can move it with a wedge and an 8 lb maul, then I can probably move it almost as quickly with the same wedge and a boys ax. Since the ax is easier to swing, I focus more on using good form so that I can place my hits more accurately doing less damage to my wedges.

And then theirs carrying around a 6lb or 8lb sledge on my belt. Having spent 6 years doing residential construction and primairly using a 28 oz framing hammer, hanging 8 lbs off of a belt seems insane. Depending on how the tools is oriented (up vs down), the longer handle is either going to stick up over my shoulder or constantly be catching me in the back of the shin. Neither are good, so I prefer using a boys ax.

A boys ax and 3 wedges was all I needed to put this on the ground. Not a good pic, but the bar is 42"

If you look closely at the axes they use, you'll see they're 3 1/2 to 4 pounds and the back side is about the same size as the wedge.
There's a pouch to carry an axe on your belt, it doesnt work with hammer/sledge style heads and long handles really suck to carry around.
If you have to stack wedges you want a axe/hammer about the size of the wedge to drive it in so you're only hitting one at a time.
There's likely more reasons too.

Right there is the only reason you need to only use an axe with a flat poll. Try it. Cut the bark off where the wedges go. Stack two, then get them in as far as you can with something that has a huge head ( sledge or otherwise) With the axe you will get a lot more lift and break fewer wedges by alternating from one to the other and keeping them togeather. With a sledge you are more apt to break the wedge or mush the head.

Excellent, excellent advice as usual from everybody. Much appreciated.



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[HansFranz]

If the barks full of dirt/grit an axe saves you blunting your chain

Axe is also handy for cleaving off big hunks of bark and punky sapwood from logs that have been on the ground.

If your back is getting sore/tired, you can also use it like a hookeroon to pick up (or stand up) logs from the ground, unlike a sledge.

 

[fields_mj]

Depending on the tree, I sometimes use an axe to do some light limbing work as well.

 

[computeruser]

My favored wedge bumper is a 3.5-4# ax head on a short handle of 16-18”. It will get the job done on almost everything if I do my part with the saw and the cuts.

 

[HansFranz]

I prefer using a boys ax.

I also use a Council Tool boy's axe (2.2#). My theory is that you can get just as much oomph out of it since Energy = Mass x Velocity^2

Only thing I don't like about my boy's axe is that its handle is about the perfect length to hit your ankle if you're not careful. So I'm thinking of either shortening the handle some, and reseating the head, or fitting it with a longer handle, which should give it even more speed.

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

I also use a Council Tool boy's axe (2.2#). My theory is that you can get just as much oomph out of it since Energy = Mass x Velocity^2

Only thing I don't like about my boy's axe is that its handle is about the perfect length to hit your ankle if you're not careful. So I'm thinking of either shortening the handle some, and reseating the head, or fitting it with a longer handle, which should give it even more speed.

Or you are carrying your axe upside down?

 

[northmanlogging]

I'm trying to figure out why a professional logger would opt to carry a single bit axe to drive felling wedges, rather than lets say a 3 1/2 or 4 pound sledge?
If for instance, tree limbs, loose bark, or punky wood around the back cut needs to be removed, it would be faster and probably safer to buzz through the stuff quickly with the saw, instead of beating on it with an axe.
Sure the axe might help you free up a pinched saw... maybe, with a fair amount of time and effort. Other than that, I see no reason to carry an axe instead of a sledge.
Weight would be close to the same. The flat side of the single bit axe would be rougher on the plastic felling wedges than a sledge.

On those same lines, whether you have an axe, or a sledge to drive wedges, you'd want a long handle, like 36" to have more striking force and to be back farther away from the impact. Only problem I see with the 36" handle would be the awkward bulkiness of the long handle, knobbing you in the back of the head/helmet, when its worn in the belt holder.
What do you folks think.



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as the professional logger...
the axe is multi function, barking and limbing being the obvious, but you can chop out a face cut, or chop chunks of said face cut to use as wedge jacks, or blocked dutchman, you can free your saw if pinch, but its really only feasible on limbs or small tops,

Few things that haven't been pointed out, you can trim the smooshed faces of a wedge with an axe, throw said axe at the next tree, and if yer good it will stick. you can use it as a "bobber" stick the blade end lightly into the back cut and watch the handle for movement. you can in a pinch use an axe as a wedge, knocking chunks out to install spring boards, and lastly, if the tree is going a little off in the fall, if yer quick fast like a bunny you can slap the head into the face cut and get the tree to turn a little, like a block dutchmen, though to be fair a wedge works for this too, and FYI its not exactly the safest thing ever.. if yer a macho man.. like me... you can even shave with an axe... try that with a hammer (says the guy that hasn't shaved in at least 10 years... probably longer)

Few things about about sledge that totally suck yo... they are heavy as F, they will smoosh a wedge into oblivion, they are heavy... they have a wide face so stacking wedges is out.

And since I know this will come up... my #1 is a F'ed over rebuilt antique Craftsmen 3.5# (ish) my #2 is a 4# council rafting pattern both wear 28" straight handles both have square polls, I have a 5# council, but I tend to smash wedges with it so it stays in the crummy unless I'm using the 14" wedges and maybe the 25ton jack isn't enough...

Seen plenty of cutters using those itty bitty stihl or husgvarna hatchets, and one of my buddies routinely uses dollar store hatchets, and I've seen plenty of other folks using 5# heads on stubby wee like 10" handles... which makes my wrist hurt thinking about hitting anything with it.
Another option, that is hard to find, is the magnesium wedge, it has "handles" sorta molded into it, though I find them rather uncomfortable, and I'm not a big fan of carpultunnel (sp?)... cause them things make your fangers tingle with every strike....

 

[slabMan]

I also use a Council Tool boy's axe (2.2#). My theory is that you can get just as much oomph out of it since Energy = Mass x Velocity^2

Only thing I don't like about my boy's axe is that its handle is about the perfect length to hit your ankle if you're not careful. So I'm thinking of either shortening the handle some, and reseating the head, or fitting it with a longer handle, which should give it even more speed.

I always thought Sir Issac said it was "momentum" not Energy...hmmm! [ie a massive logger swinging a heavy axe with great velocity equals the momentum or how far that wedge will move into that wood!

 

[slabMan]

Those Mg wedges end up making an awesome campfire too! [with protective uv glasses on that is! lmao

as the professional logger...
the axe is multi function, barking and limbing being the obvious, but you can chop out a face cut, or chop chunks of said face cut to use as wedge jacks, or blocked dutchman, you can free your saw if pinch, but its really only feasible on limbs or small tops,

Few things that haven't been pointed out, you can trim the smooshed faces of a wedge with an axe, throw said axe at the next tree, and if yer good it will stick. you can use it as a "bobber" stick the blade end lightly into the back cut and watch the handle for movement. you can in a pinch use an axe as a wedge, knocking chunks out to install spring boards, and lastly, if the tree is going a little off in the fall, if yer quick fast like a bunny you can slap the head into the face cut and get the tree to turn a little, like a block dutchmen, though to be fair a wedge works for this too, and FYI its not exactly the safest thing ever.. if yer a macho man.. like me... you can even shave with an axe... try that with a hammer (says the guy that hasn't shaved in at least 10 years... probably longer)

Few things about about sledge that totally suck yo... they are heavy as F, they will smoosh a wedge into oblivion, they are heavy... they have a wide face so stacking wedges is out.

And since I know this will come up... my #1 is a F'ed over rebuilt antique Craftsmen 3.5# (ish) my #2 is a 4# council rafting pattern both wear 28" straight handles both have square polls, I have a 5# council, but I tend to smash wedges with it so it stays in the crummy unless I'm using the 14" wedges and maybe the 25ton jack isn't enough...

Seen plenty of cutters using those itty bitty stihl or husgvarna hatchets, and one of my buddies routinely uses dollar store hatchets, and I've seen plenty of other folks using 5# heads on stubby wee like 10" handles... which makes my wrist hurt thinking about hitting anything with it.
Another option, that is hard to find, is the magnesium wedge, it has "handles" sorta molded into it, though I find them rather uncomfortable, and I'm not a big fan of carpultunnel (sp?)... cause them things make your fangers tingle with every strike....

mp

 

[HansFranz]

I always thought Sir Issac said it was "momentum" not Energy...hmmm!

Yeah, in the gun world they use the terms "muzzle energy" and "terminal energy" to quantify this. I guess that's where the confusion comes from. Momentum, inertia, kinetic energy...maybe the best term to use for it would be "force" since it's quantified in units of foot-pounds.
(I remember asking a HS physics teacher about this, she was also a shooter like me, and I think we both learned something that day.)

Whatever you call it, the point is that it's proportional to the square of the speed, whereas the relationship to mass is only linear.

So if you double the axe mass, you double its force. If you triple its mass (assuming you can keep velocity the same), you triple its force.
But if you double the speed (keeping mass the same), the force increases fourfold (2²). Triple the speed and force increases ninefold (3²).
Or for a real-world example, let's say you cut the axe mass in half but double its speed. This will double its force at the wedge.
This is why you can get so much muzzle energy (or "force") out of a very light bullet at very high speed, like in a .220 Swift or .22-250.

Increasing axe speed definitely makes that short handle and light head more of a potential buzzkill, though... always know what's beyond your target and make sure it ain't yer ankle!

 

[Jonny Quest]

when felling trees, a felling axe is waaaay more useful than a sledge. Just my 2¢

JQ

 

[northmanlogging]

I always thought Sir Issac said it was "momentum" not Energy...hmmm! [ie a massive logger swinging a heavy axe with great velocity equals the momentum or how far that wedge will move into that wood!

totally unrelated... once had to reline brakes for an ancient trailer, the dude bro selling me the pads insisted I use bolts because you could never squeeze the rivits by hand... which was BS then and now (I've been smashing rivets since I was a wee child, its not exactly difficult)
Anyway flash forward 5 years or so and theres a bunch of vids by pakistani truck on you tube showing 10 year old kids smashing the same rivits with a 3# hammer... while squatting and carrying on a conversation...
Most cutters are skinny wiry short dudes, I being the exception to the rule by like a lot... but them wee little dudes can smash a wedge all day long and then some.

 

[slabMan]

totally unrelated... once had to reline brakes for an ancient trailer, the dude bro selling me the pads insisted I use bolts because you could never squeeze the rivits by hand... which was BS then and now (I've been smashing rivets since I was a wee child, its not exactly difficult)
Anyway flash forward 5 years or so and theres a bunch of vids by pakistani truck on you tube showing 10 year old kids smashing the same rivits with a 3# hammer... while squatting and carrying on a conversation...
Most cutters are skinny wiry short dudes, I being the exception to the rule by like a lot... but them wee little dudes can smash a wedge all day long and then some.

I suppose its analogous to a human form of HP to weight ratio with those 'skinny wiry dudes'. They may not have as much pop behind the axe swings as a larger man, but they will make up the difference with repetitions, all day!