Fireplace experience needed

[Bushmans]

We've been discussing wood usage for fireplace vs woodstove on a diffrent thread but I have some questions on my fireplace that maybe could help me use it more efficiently.
For example:
How hot can the glass doors get? When I close the doors and limit the air the doors get wicked hot. I don't want to damage them.

Is the fireplace insert designed to let most of the heat escape up the chimney?
Is it wise to close the fire box up as much as possible replicating a wood stove?

The damper is controlled by a push rod sticking out of the fireplace. It is either open or shut. No in between settings. This morning while tinkering around with a nice hot fire I closed the doors, shut the louvers and held the damper half shut. The fire simmered down and the heatilator tubes were kicking out some good hot air via the fan undereath the whole contraption and no smoke was rolling out between the doors. The glass got pretty hot and in order to hold the damper I would have to Dremmel an extra slot in the push rod that controls the damper.
There are rubber like seals on the inside of each door that press up against framework and create a seal. The only air intake is the louvers at the bottom that slide open and shut or between the glass doors if I close them. I thought about creating a seal in between the doors as well.

As far as the metal that surrounds the fire box;
The lower metal portion always stays cool but the top gets too hot to touch. Even the brick surrounding the fireplace can get pretty warm (above) when I fire it up hot for a few hours.

The fireplace chimney is triple wall and I clean it myself twice a year with an 8 inch brush with a weight tied to it on a rope. When I first moved in I scrubbed and had enough soot to fill half a five gallon bucket.
When I scrubbed back in October I had enough to fill a coffee cup.
The outside chimney is stick built with 2x4s, plywood and drywall with aluminum siding on the exterior where it juts through the garage roof. I live in a bi-level with the fireplace on the lower level. So it is around 25ish feet in total height.

This is my 2nd winter in the house using this fireplace.

I am working on getting a wood stove insert but want to get the most out of this one in the meantime.
I have a few pics of the fireplace.

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My current burn configuration is doors wide open and screens wide open. I seem to get the best heat but I sure burn a lot of wood to do it!

ps. Did AS change the pic format? I used to have to preview the post, copy/paste and such. Now the pic pops up in the preview window. Hopefully you can see them without clicking on them.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[CTYank]

Fireplaces are meant for pretty, certainly not for heat. Their biggest problem is their insatiable demand for air, known as "makeup air." It can easily run to thousands of cubic feet/minute. Not good at 10 deg F, for example.

So, the best you can do is to cut your losses, with flow rate cut back as possible. Then, if you had some sort of heat exchanger that took forced flow of room air, heated it through a tube grate, and returned it to the room, you might have something. Fuhgeddaboudit. Heatilator- let's get real!

At best, with doors open you'll be toasty on the side facing the fire, chilly on yer back-side. Kinda like camping in. Rooms away from the fireplace will be brisk.

You'll never make a fireplace practical for heating, except maybe waaaaaay down south. Many have tried. They are ventilators/wood-disposal-units, period.

 

[kodiak]

Fireplaces are meant for pretty, certainly not for heat. Their biggest problem is their insatiable demand for air, known as "makeup air." It can easily run to thousands of cubic feet/minute. Not good at 10 deg F, for example.

So, the best you can do is to cut your losses, with flow rate cut back as possible. Then, if you had some sort of heat exchanger that took forced flow of room air, heated it through a tube grate, and returned it to the room, you might have something. Fuhgeddaboudit. Heatilator- let's get real!

At best, with doors open you'll be toasty on the side facing the fire, chilly on yer back-side. Kinda like camping in. Rooms away from the fireplace will be brisk.

You'll never make a fireplace practical for heating, except maybe waaaaaay down south. Many have tried. They are ventilators/wood-disposal-units, period.

Yank - You must be referring to the brick and mortar fireplaces? Otherwise there are a number of guys in the attached thread that would disagree with you. Case in point: Our outdoor thermometer says 5° and the house is at 72° - furnace hasn't come on in days.
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/189200.htm

 

[Bushmans]

Thanks for the replies.

Kodiak...I was on that thread as well. My fireplace heats the downstairs pretty nice.
Downside is it eats wood like Riki Lake on a buffet.
Also I am starting fires all the time.
Any ideas on the glass temps or overall stove temps?
Mine gets really hot when I shut it down. Hot is good but with my inexperience with fireplaces I am reluctant to do this.
Thanks for the back up. Rep sent

 

[CTYank]

Yank - You must be referring to the brick and mortar fireplaces? Otherwise there are a number of guys in the attached thread that would disagree with you. Case in point: Our outdoor thermometer says 5° and the house is at 72° - furnace hasn't come on in days.
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/189200.htm

Of course, I can only try to distill experience.

Possibly you're telling part of the story, like excluding any objective efficiency figures? :msp_smile:

I've seen one metal built-in fireplace, now that I think back. It was in a shelter on the AT in CT. Seems someone put the metal assemblage kinda close to some framing lumber underneath. One Feb. night some hikers had a nice fire ripping away, with firewood we'd cut some months previous. (We did stack it some distance away, to dissuade bonfires.) Guess what ensued. Fortunately, FD got it out before the propane tank blew, but the building was a total loss. It's really easy to inspect stove installation- trivial.

You'll understand if I pass on fireplaces, I hope. Not into that English tradition, anyhow.

 

[Encore]

Fireplaces aren't built to be stuffed with wood and run super hot. Any way you slice it they are made for ambience not efficiency.

I had a buddy who swore by his fireplace, but he'd go through almost 8 cords a winter feeding that thing. Plus you have the disadvantage of short burn times and you're always starting a fire.

Finally got him to switch to an insert and he literally used half (4 cords) of the wood he'd previously used and got much much better burn times. The insert still kept the fireplace appearance with the glass doors but threw much much more heat.

If you really must stay with a fireplace, I would certainly not run it with a big hot fire in there. It's not made for that and will warp eventually. The glass I wouldn't worry about as much, but the fireplace itself will be what gets ruined over time.

 

[Bushmans]

Thanks Encore,
I was concerned about the glass more than the metal. I guess I'll just keep running "normal" untl I get my woodstove.
Got a lead on a Forester insert for $450. Pretty good shape too!

 

[kodiak]

Thanks for the replies.

Kodiak...I was on that thread as well. My fireplace heats the downstairs pretty nice.
Downside is it eats wood like Riki Lake on a buffet.
Also I am starting fires all the time.
Any ideas on the glass temps or overall stove temps?
Mine gets really hot when I shut it down. Hot is good but with my inexperience with fireplaces I am reluctant to do this.
Thanks for the back up. Rep sent

Not sure on glass temps, I use an infrared thermometer and they do not work well on glass. I have checked the temp on the top of the firebox (after removing the top grill) and it was well within the factory recommendations. Sorry, I don't recall what the temps were.

When you say restarting the fire, are you talking about from scratch? The only time we put a match to it is if we're gone more than 12+ hours and there aren't enough embers. Otherwise it gets filled about every 8 hours - in the morning, when we get home from work then right before bed. If it's real cold we'll feed it more often when we're home.

 

[kodiak]

Of course, I can only try to distill experience.

Possibly you're telling part of the story, like excluding any objective efficiency figures? :msp_smile:

I've seen one metal built-in fireplace, now that I think back. It was in a shelter on the AT in CT. Seems someone put the metal assemblage kinda close to some framing lumber underneath. One Feb. night some hikers had a nice fire ripping away, with firewood we'd cut some months previous. (We did stack it some distance away, to dissuade bonfires.) Guess what ensued. Fortunately, FD got it out before the propane tank blew, but the building was a total loss. It's really easy to inspect stove installation- trivial.

You'll understand if I pass on fireplaces, I hope. Not into that English tradition, anyhow.

No need to get your panties in a wad. I'm simply passing along real world experience to dispel your comment saying something about (presumably all) fireplaces not being built for heat or something like that. Here's some quick information on the unit we have if you're interested.
MagnuM ZC

 

[Wife'nHubby]

I don't know if it's possible for you to locate any info on your glass doors - but - when we tried to replace our 1950 vintage glass doors with a set from Home Depot, the directions for the new doors specifically said not to burn with the doors closed. There IS a difference in the quality of the glass in fireplace doors..........

Shari

 

[Ayatollah]

I'm not sure if you have a zero clearance style installed in your open hearth or not, but it seems like you may. The zero clearance type are generally not designed for damper control burns. It's best to keep the damper open all the way until your burn is completely extinguished. Your heat output is then controlled by fuel, in this case good cured wood. the fireplace glass doors are best left open for heating, and closed when you go nighty-night. Save up the center cuts of hard walnut or oak trunks near the bottom for just before bed time. they are your best "all-nighters", that are prone to be still available in the morning.

 

[pennsywoodburnr]

opcorn:

 

[Bushmans]

I don't know if it's possible for you to locate any info on your glass doors - but - when we tried to replace our 1950 vintage glass doors with a set from Home Depot, the directions for the new doors specifically said not to burn with the doors closed. There IS a difference in the quality of the glass in fireplace doors..........

Shari

I remember reading a thread on here where a person had the doors explode on their burner. Made me nervous. Thanks!

 

[Bushmans]

I'm not sure if you have a zero clearance style installed in your open hearth or not, but it seems like you may. The zero clearance type are generally not designed for damper control burns. It's best to keep the damper open all the way until your burn is completely extinguished. Your heat output is then controlled by fuel, in this case good cured wood. the fireplace glass doors are best left open for heating, and closed when you go nighty-night. Save up the center cuts of hard walnut or oak trunks near the bottom for just before bed time. they are your best "all-nighters", that are prone to be still available in the morning.

I just have a hard time leaving that thing going all night. Even with the screens closed I still get little pops and snaps that make their way out. Had a chunk of cherry the other day that shot out a dime sized coal about 4 foot!
You should see me. Upstairs watching tv and the fireplace pops downstairs, so down two flights of stairs I run to check it. Back up to tv. Pop....back down the stairs I run.
I'm starting to hate this thing.......but I hate the propane bill as well.

 

[Bushmans]

Not sure on glass temps, I use an infrared thermometer and they do not work well on glass. I have checked the temp on the top of the firebox (after removing the top grill) and it was well within the factory recommendations. Sorry, I don't recall what the temps were.

When you say restarting the fire, are you talking about from scratch? The only time we put a match to it is if we're gone more than 12+ hours and there aren't enough embers. Otherwise it gets filled about every 8 hours - in the morning, when we get home from work then right before bed. If it's real cold we'll feed it more often when we're home.

Yes from scratch.
I leave the house at 5:15 am during the weekdays and don't return until 4:30 pm.
I light a fire and feed it until about 8 pm. After 8 I let it burn down. By 9-10 I'm headed for bed so I close the doors and turn off the fan. By morning it is stone cold and I close the damper before leaving at 5:15.

On the weekends I start it at 5 when I wake and burn all day until bed time. Have to relight in the morn. Never enough coals to get a new one going.

I don't bother trying to light a fire during the week mornings because by the time it got good and warm the house would be empty.

 

[Dogalot]

I just have a hard time leaving that thing going all night. Even with the screens closed I still get little pops and snaps that make their way out. Had a chunk of cherry the other day that shot out a dime sized coal about 4 foot!
You should see me. Upstairs watching tv and the fireplace pops downstairs, so down two flights of stairs I run to check it. Back up to tv. Pop....back down the stairs I run.
I'm starting to hate this thing.......but I hate the propane bill as well.

I have a wood stove that sometimes pops out the front intake draft and sides of the door (old school Juca). We've laid slate down in front of (and all sides) the stove. Not sure if it is sufficient to land a 4'-er... and we're in a one story - so not the 'exercise' (granted - unwanted)...

As far as Glass Temp -- Here is a link that might be helpful. Mentions glass temps and how heat affects it's life cycle...

http://www.mb-soft.com/juca/info/glass.html#temp

 

[dave_376]

It seems to me that some people misuse the term fireplace. To me and most people out there a fireplace is a brick and mortar hole in your house that you burn woos in. A fireplace is nice to look at but not worth much in terms of heat output, you can heat one room but generally the rest of the house will get cooled off. Some fireplaces have glass doors on the front to make them more attractive but they are not tight sealing, the doors are mounted directly to the brick face. Other fireplaces utilize a spark screen to keep everything inside the fireplace.

Many people including myself have the type of fireplace I described and have installed a fireplace insert which in my case, is a wood stove with the legs removed and a blower fan (Avalon Olympic). There are many manufacture of fireplace inserts all of which put out considerably more heat than a fireplace.

There is also an appliance called a Zero Clearance fireplace. These are not typically "FIREPLACES" they are wood stoves. the MagnuM ZC mentioned earlier is a wood heating appliance with rather impressive stats.
Weight: 550 pounds
Average Burn Time: 6-8 hours
Max Log Length: Up to 22"
Efficiency: Up to 83%
Average Heating Capacity: Up to 2500 square feet
BTU Range: Up to 75,000

Most inserts and wood stoves being sold today have an efficiency of around 80% where as a fireplace has an efficiency of less than 15%.

Misused or misunderstood terminology can easily confuse people and lead people to wrong conclusions. from looking at you pictures it looks like you have an older zero clearance which is better than a brick and mortar fireplace but not equal to the MagnuM ZC. If it were me I would look into replacing the unit. You may have a few options but a good dealer should be able to point you in the right direction with an inspection of your home.
You my be able to swap the unite out for a newer more efficient ZC. You maybe able to install a fireplace insert inside the the ZC, some zero clearance units are approved for an insert and some inserts are approved to be installed in a ZC.

 

[kodiak]

It seems to me that some people misuse the term fireplace. To me and most people out there a fireplace is a brick and mortar hole in your house that you burn wood in. ...

... There is also an appliance called a Zero Clearance fireplace. These are not typically "FIREPLACES" they are wood stoves. ...

... Most inserts and wood stoves being sold today have an efficiency of around 80% where as a fireplace has an efficiency of less than 15%. ...

What he said.

Rep sent.

 

[Fyrebug]

You have an older smaller ZC fireplace. If the glass is ceramic (pyoceram, Schott Robax or other) you have nothing to worry about. But if it's something else... you need to be careful. Can you get the orignial specs and manual from the MFG?

If you want more efficiencies, it is possible to install a small high efficiency insert in there. If it's of interest let me know and I'll send you more info.

We make stoves (wood/pellet), inserts, ZC fireplaces, furnaces, chimneys etc...

The terminology may be confusing but there are 2 types of fireplaces. Mansonry and Zero Clearance. ZC's are in no way, shape, function, design & certification "just a wood stove". It's a totally different critter.

Within ZC's there are two types. Decoratives which yours would be. It basically means they are there for the look not the heat since most of it escape through the chimney.

The second type is the high efficiency ones and they put out a lot of heat. They are typically certified by EPA and they burn very clean. They typically have efficiencies of 75% or more. Think of a small furnace. Some of them you can actually put on a thermostat and they can be ducted to blow heat throughout the house.

Hope this helps.

 

[woodchuck357]

Never, never ,never

Let the fire burn without screens in place.:msp_scared: Do the dremel bit to hold the damper to get the best burn with the doors closed. Don't worry about making the doors air tight. Don't close the damper all the way if there is any fire in the box. I think most are designed to prevent total closeure. Research wood gas. Glass can take high temps. but the metal around it may warp and put pressure on the glass. padding with stove gasket prevents most problems of glass breaking.