Full Chisel Chain.... what exactly are dirty conditions?

[Zombiechopper]

you guys that cut clean wood might not understand just how fast and how often a chisel chain will go dull. It can be in just a couple cuts in nasty wood with dirt blown into the bark for decades. Then you have to file a lot of cutter to get it back where as with semi its just a few strokes. The wear is spread over a much larger area with semi instead of that little point that breaks off and chips in no time. I still use chisel a fair bit, but my first choice is usually semi now.

 

[mdavlee]

I'm running square now on everything I use. I don't own any semi chisel chains. I think round chisel if you bring the angle back to about 25° helps to keep it sharper longer. I cut some wood that was laying on the ground for a year with square the other day. I got 2 tanks before it was throwing small chips. It wasn't dull where it needed to be ground back but a touch up with the grinder. The rakers didn't have to be reset after that grinding. I've never had a saw over 50cc with semi chisel on it. I cut firewood and cleared fencerows for years with round chisel. I would touch up every other tank. Now I swap chains out at that time instead of touching up.

 

[Slamm]

Sam, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
If a person will keep cutting with a chisel chain until it just stops cutting............well..........they'll do the same thing with a semi chisel, and probably shouldn't be using a saw at all.
The term slower is faster would be better used as intended. A person who runs around like a jack rabbit, going wideassed open, but has to rest every 15 minutes will be out produced by a good steady worker that can put in several hours without taking a break. Put a chisel chain on that good steady workers saw, and teach him how to maintain and use it, and he'll out produce the jack rabbit by even more. If slower is faster is taken in every context we'd all be using Wild Things for production cutting.
Don't get me wrong. Semi chisel has it's place. But I think your annalogy is a little off. Cutting firewood it's probably the stuff. But I don't think it will out produce chisel (especially square chisel) on an experienced fallers saw. Just my opinion.

Andy

We can disagree all you want, LOL. We cut a lot of hickory and most everything is pretty low stumps and then buck up skidded logs in disked cornfields and chisel is not quite worthless, but it is a pain in the butt when compared to Semi Chisel, which I admit is a second or two slower at its sharpest when compared to Chisel at its sharpest, but the difference is Semi stays sharper much longer than Chisel. Around here the hickory can be so hard that it will literally rip the tips of a Chisel chain right off and then you are sitting on a log perfecting your filing technique and not cutting wood.

My reference to cutting with Chisel chain and it stopping if from having skidded behind cutters that use it and then I go grab a log that is hung up or something and they were going to cut the top or something to get it unhung and the chisel chain just gives up, as in they were going to stop and sharpen the chain, but saw that they need to cut the log out to keep a several hundred dollar per hour machine staying in production and the chain just more or less quits. With Semi Chisel that doesn't happen, you have to just sit there with the spinning chain on concrete to get it to just up and quit cutting, LOL. Semi will certainly cut slower, but like I have been saying it isn't the fastest, but it certainly isn't the slowest when compared to the procduction life of a "sharpening". Plus the Semi Chisel chains just simply last a lot longer, cause you don't have to sharpen half the tooth off to get the whole edge back, just 1 or 2 swipes and its back to full sharp.

I don't know where you are from, possibly you cut a lot of softwood or something. I have never cut a pine tree in my life, but I see how the saws go through that stuff on Axmen and holy cow, I wouldn't use Semi Chisel on that Balsa wood either, it appears that you could put the chain on backwards and it would cut just as good, LOL. But here where the wood is pretty hard on average or dirty at a minimum Semi will cut more wood in a 12 hour shift.

That is what I have found,

Sam

 

[redprospector]

you guys that cut clean wood might not understand just how fast and how often a chisel chain will go dull. It can be in just a couple cuts in nasty wood with dirt blown into the bark for decades. Then you have to file a lot of cutter to get it back where as with semi its just a few strokes. The wear is spread over a much larger area with semi instead of that little point that breaks off and chips in no time. I still use chisel a fair bit, but my first choice is usually semi now.

Hahahahahaha. I think you mistake me for someone else.
I once had the privelage of cutting clean wood, back when I was a Timber Faller. But since the environmentalist have taken over and wrecked the timber industry here, we've all been demoted to thinning contractors. Yeah, it's pretty clean when we fall it, but then we have to remove it. So it get's skid out to the landings. When it's dry it's not too bad, it's just dry dirt and embedded rocks you have to watch for. But sometimes it rains here, and snows generally melt pretty quick leaving a muddy mess. Right now I'm skidding pecker poles pretty near 1/2 mile to the landing. A total removal contract means that the wood has to be removed from the property, so I'd be willing to bet that I'm cutting stuff into firewood that most of you guy's would walk away from shaking your heads.
But then again you could be right. Maybe I just don't understand given my limited experience. Hahahaha.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

We can disagree all you want, LOL. We cut a lot of hickory and most everything is pretty low stumps and then buck up skidded logs in disked cornfields and chisel is not quite worthless, but it is a pain in the butt when compared to Semi Chisel, which I admit is a second or two slower at its sharpest when compared to Chisel at its sharpest, but the difference is Semi stays sharper much longer than Chisel. Around here the hickory can be so hard that it will literally rip the tips of a Chisel chain right off and then you are sitting on a log perfecting your filing technique and not cutting wood.

My reference to cutting with Chisel chain and it stopping if from having skidded behind cutters that use it and then I go grab a log that is hung up or something and they were going to cut the top or something to get it unhung and the chisel chain just gives up, as in they were going to stop and sharpen the chain, but saw that they need to cut the log out to keep a several hundred dollar per hour machine staying in production and the chain just more or less quits. With Semi Chisel that doesn't happen, you have to just sit there with the spinning chain on concrete to get it to just up and quit cutting, LOL. Semi will certainly cut slower, but like I have been saying it isn't the fastest, but it certainly isn't the slowest when compared to the procduction life of a "sharpening". Plus the Semi Chisel chains just simply last a lot longer, cause you don't have to sharpen half the tooth off to get the whole edge back, just 1 or 2 swipes and its back to full sharp.

I don't know where you are from, possibly you cut a lot of softwood or something. I have never cut a pine tree in my life, but I see how the saws go through that stuff on Axmen and holy cow, I wouldn't use Semi Chisel on that Balsa wood either, it appears that you could put the chain on backwards and it would cut just as good, LOL. But here where the wood is pretty hard on average or dirty at a minimum Semi will cut more wood in a 12 hour shift.

That is what I have found,

Sam

Hahaha. If your Hickory is that hard you should go with a carbide chain......or a grinder. Hahahaha. I've cut my share of hardwood, but you're right, I am in an area where we cut a lot of "soft wood". It's kinda like hardwood, it's charactoristics change from region to region.
One other thought. Your cutters work a 12 hour shift????

Andy

 

[wyk]

I think it's nearly as much how hard the wood is as how dirty it is when it comes to the pnw. It is filthy here all the time with trucks, wind, mud, and general gunk - even in the mtns. Once a tree hits the ground, it is dirty. However, since it is mostly pine, a full chisel square semi skip chain still works very well. Even in dirty conditions with a 6hp saw pulling a 28" or 24" chain, I can easily get several cords of wood out of a chain before sharpening. Once the tips start to just show dull, you can quickly file down the rakers a bit on a skip tooth, and go back and get another couple of cords. You then swap it for your other skip square and repeat. At the end of the day, gather the chains and grind them for work tomorrow. You can work as fast as you want if you bring a few chains. I have 3-4 chains for each of my bars(28,24,20). I would assume a pro would certainly have more.

If I can, I will elevate limbs or use a horse. But once the tree is on the ground, I just use as small a bar as I can get away with and be careful. If I have to rake it or sharpen it, then so be it. It takes very little time to file rakers. Once my squares go dull, or I notice they are becoming uneven lengths, I will have them reground to rounds and then just use a round file on them.

 

[komatsuvarna]

Once the tips start to just show dull, you can quickly file down the rakers a bit on a skip tooth, and go back and get another couple of cords.

Lowering the rakers to substitute for sharpening a chain??

 

[wyk]

Lowering the rakers to substitute for sharpening a chain??

With a square grind, you can go until you start to feel it is losing some cut, then file the rakers with a standard guide(not any more than you normally would do), and get back to work for quite a bit more until it really dulls. I just assumed everyone else cutting pine with a skip tooth square was doing the same thing. It gets you a lot of mileage, but you will have to regrind it later on(which is what most square tooth owners probably do). I wouldn't do it in hard wood, tho - you will start to get vibration much more quickly. And when you do hit some large knots, it can be a bit of a rodeo near the end of the chain's cutting life.

I forgot to add - the kickback can be insane - so I don't bother limbing with it near the tail end of it's life.

 

[redprospector]

Lowered rakers are no substitute for a sharp chain.

Andy

 

[Jacob J.]

I suppose if a guy soils himself, that might be considered "dirty conditions."

 

[Gologit]

I suppose if a guy soils himself, that might be considered "dirty conditions."

Especially if he wipes his butt on the log.

 

[oscar4883]

I run mostly full chisel. The wood I cut, stuff in front/back yards fot the most part, is generally very clean. The Stihl chain Slamm recommends is where its at for dirty work. For me that is flushing stumps. Anytime you get way down into the root flare you are bound to be cutting into pockets of dirt. The difference between semi and full chisel is like night and day. The full chisel will be dull almost instantly whereas the semi-chisel will almost always allow me to make a complete cut. However, the guys that tend to hit the ground when they are buckin need to work on technique rather that trying to make up the difference with a particuliar type of chain. IMO

 

[atvguns]

I suppose if a guy soils himself, that might be considered "dirty conditions."

I hate it when that happens:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[redprospector]

Especially if he wipes his butt on the log.

Naw, that would be NASTY conditions.

Andy

 

[Slamm]

Hahaha. If your Hickory is that hard you should go with a carbide chain......or a grinder. Hahahaha. I've cut my share of hardwood, but you're right, I am in an area where we cut a lot of "soft wood". It's kinda like hardwood, it's charactoristics change from region to region.
One other thought. Your cutters work a 12 hour shift????

Andy

I tried carbide from same salesman when I first started logging. He came by and gave several cutters carbide chain and told us to try it. Well it was so slow that we just went back to the Chisel chain we normally used at that time and told him it didn't work for wood.

But that is why I use the skip, semi-chisel from Stihl, what would rip the tips of chisel chain off, this semi-chisel provides zero problems, we might sharpen a couple of times before noon and a couple of times afternoon, and we are cutting everything from 5" and bigger for 300+ acres, and we are cutting all of it at 6" or less in stump height so the skidders can just drive around without getting tore up, but it is 80% hickory, when we get to cut an oak, its like cutting soft pine in comparison, LOL.

Right now we are working from before sun up to after sun down. I think, I have some of the best friends/workers that one could find. Of their own will, they are standing next to a tree waiting for the sun to get bright enough to start cutting and when there is snow on the ground and we can see good enough to top. We spend the last hour of light dropping trees and then go back and for upwards of 2-3 hours in the dark we spend topping trees against the bright snow, with a good moon and snow Bert and I have kept right on cutting in the dark. It gets dark around 5:40pm and we walked out of the woods at 8:30pm twice. We have even gone to wearing light shaded, yellow safety glasses as you can kinda see in the dark better with them, LOL.

It is a clear cut and we just stand at the ever, moving edge and never stop cutting. At this point we have worked in rain, sleet, snow and 18* degrees and 40mph winds, we joke that all we need is an earthquake and we would have worked through just about everything that we could, LOL. Except for Christmas, Bert hasn't missed one day since we started about month ago, he is going 7 days a week. The rest have only maybe missed 3 days. I didn't work Christmas and day after, but I am mechanicing and welding up light boxes to put on the skidders so they can work at night.

I think this week I'm going to rent those light towers that light up 4-7 acres and we are going to start work at 2am when the ground gets good and frozen, because right now we are starting a pattern of 20* at night and 40* during the day, and you can only skid and get trucks in until about 9-10am or "mudtime" we call it.

We have fun,

Sam

 

[Kemper]

We can disagree all you want, LOL. We cut a lot of hickory and most everything is pretty low stumps and then buck up skidded logs in disked cornfields and chisel is not quite worthless, but it is a pain in the butt when compared to Semi Chisel, which I admit is a second or two slower at its sharpest when compared to Chisel at its sharpest, but the difference is Semi stays sharper much longer than Chisel. Around here the hickory can be so hard that it will literally rip the tips of a Chisel chain right off and then you are sitting on a log perfecting your filing technique and not cutting wood.

My reference to cutting with Chisel chain and it stopping if from having skidded behind cutters that use it and then I go grab a log that is hung up or something and they were going to cut the top or something to get it unhung and the chisel chain just gives up, as in they were going to stop and sharpen the chain, but saw that they need to cut the log out to keep a several hundred dollar per hour machine staying in production and the chain just more or less quits. With Semi Chisel that doesn't happen, you have to just sit there with the spinning chain on concrete to get it to just up and quit cutting, LOL. Semi will certainly cut slower, but like I have been saying it isn't the fastest, but it certainly isn't the slowest when compared to the procduction life of a "sharpening". Plus the Semi Chisel chains just simply last a lot longer, cause you don't have to sharpen half the tooth off to get the whole edge back, just 1 or 2 swipes and its back to full sharp.

I don't know where you are from, possibly you cut a lot of softwood or something. I have never cut a pine tree in my life, but I see how the saws go through that stuff on Axmen and holy cow, I wouldn't use Semi Chisel on that Balsa wood either, it appears that you could put the chain on backwards and it would cut just as good, LOL. But here where the wood is pretty hard on average or dirty at a minimum Semi will cut more wood in a 12 hour shift.

That is what I have found,

Sam

I know what you mean on the hickory! i cut lots of it here in SE Iowa, i do use a lot of full chisel but that shagbark can really dull a chain in a hurry.

 

[redprospector]

Sounds like that carbide chain blows your saying that "slower is faster". Hahahaha.
I'm not going to argue with you, run the chain you want to run. If it's workin' for ya, more power to ya.

Andy

 

[Slamm]

Sounds like that carbide chain blows your saying that "slower is faster". Hahahaha.
I'm not going to argue with you, run the chain you want to run. If it's workin' for ya, more power to ya.

Andy

Uh, yeah??

The slower is faster phrase comes from people who drive skidders and run saws hard to the point of breaking things or causing undo breakage and damage and that in the long run is slower productionwise, because running fast for a few minutes or hours and then having to stop and sharpen the chain repeatedly or fix a transmission or axle is not faster. To those with simple minds, it may seem that they are producing faster results, but to those that either benefit or not, from the net profit or loss of this running faster short term, they find that they are not making more money in the long run.

It has been my experience that differences between Semi and Chisel fall into those requirements where Chisel chain is not fast enough for long enough to out perform or cut more wood than Semi-Chisel is or will. Is Chisel chain faster ............... yes, for a few cuts, and then it gets slower and it goes downhill rather quickly.

Carbide Chain is just plain slow and then it is slower to sharpen and its expensive, for logging it has almost zero benefits. For fighting fires, maybe its the ticket don't know.

Later,

Sam

 

[rangergord]

Thanks for this thread guys. I had never even seen semi chisel chain until I found this site recently. I wonder if my dealer even stocks it. I may have to order some from baileys. I have always used full chisel and if I was doing nothing but falling and bucking in the clean virgin forest it is all I would want. I am mostly a firewood cutter and I prefer to cut my logs in the woods and haul out the firewood by hand to the road. My full chisel works pretty good that way. Sometimes I am forced to buck on the road or cut wood that has been skidded out of the bush in the dirt or covered in road dust. I don't have a cant hook (might get one) so I end up cutting right through logs and try as I might, end up with a rocked chain. If I could avoid even a bit of the endless sharpening away my chain into oblivion by using semi chisel I would be happy indeed. I cut pine, spruce, aspen, poplar and once in a while some birch. No real hardwood here to speak of but as in most places lots of dirt. I really want to try out this semi chisel chain.

 

[redprospector]

Ok, like I said earlier, semi chisel has it's place. Everyone has to decide if the slower cutting speed outweighs the sharpening time of chisel for themselves.
Just don't be lulled into thinking that semi chisel is the end all, cure all for having to sharpen a dull chain. A dull chain has to be sharpened regardless of whether it's square chisel, round chisel, semi chisel, chipper, or carbide. It dosen't matter if it's full comp., full skip, or semi skip. If you hit a rock with any of the above it will have to be sharpened, if you cut a lot of dirt with any of the above, it will have to be sharpened. Some people will use the dogs on their saw to compensate for a dull chain. There is no substitute for a sharp chain. A dull chain of any configuration is not only non productive, but dangerous. Don't look for that magic bullet that lets you quit worrying about hitting the dirt, and rocks............It dosen't exist. Just learn to avoid hitting the ground, touch up when needed, and file/grind the hell out of them when neccessary.

Andy