Had to quit first logging job after fitting in perfectly. How should I proceed?

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I know I am going to screw some things up Gologit, but I see money there and have to try.

Of course you'll screw up, everybody does. Anybody that tells you different is lying. New guys tend to screw up more but that's to be expected. Just try to keep small mistakes from becoming major disasters. Screw ups can be learning opportunities if you let them. If you find yourself making the same mistakes more than a couple of times you better take a look at what you're doing wrong. Soon, too.

That old saying "do something, even if it's wrong" never works very well in logging. Plan your work, but be flexible too. Don't give yourself any days off at first. If you're not logging on weekends go out there anyway, while it's quiet and you can look things over without being bothered.
Walk the ground, think about ways to move your logs more efficiently. Every time you move a log it costs you money. Look for ways to eliminate excess handling. Time is your enemy.

Know your markets. Mills aren't in business to make you rich and if you fail they don't really care. Be very aware that they think you're an idiot for working like you do. Don't prove them right. Know your prices. Don't depend on their sense of fairness or even their honesty in every case. Watch your scale tickets. Get your prices set before you ever cut a stick.
Learn how to buck for grade. I don't know much about the timber in your part of the country but from all the different species, grades, and buyers it would seem that bucking is where you'd determine the best value out of every log. And every log counts.

Know your expenses and I mean every expense. Every penny. That doesn't mean you have to be a cheapskate but unless you know what it's costing you to log you might not know how much you're losing until it's too late. Logging is one of the few businesses where you can be working so hard that you don't know you're going broke until you have.

Work on your own machinery as much as possible. If that means staying in the woods all night working by pickup headlights to get something ready for the next day that's what you do. If it calls for working all weekend to be up and running for Monday that's just part of the program. If something breaks, fix it as soon as you can. Maintenance doesn't cost as much as down time and down time will just absolutely kill you.

These are just generalities but maybe they'll help. I can't advise you on everything that you'll need to be successful but some things about this business are constant no matter where you work. I don't know much about logging except the logging I've done. To me an oak or a maple, or any hardwood for that matter, is just a damn weed. I've logged a lot of oak but it was never any more than necessary to open up roads or clear landings. A lot of what I do out here doesn't really relate to what you're doing but the way I've been taught and the way I've worked has provided me with a good living for many years.

If you really want to log I think you should give it a try. If you find that it's not what you really wanted you'll at least know for sure.
 
How is your family going to deal with it? Something else to think of. Some spouses know and went into the marriage knowing that the logger they were marrying was not going to be home much. Some can't handle it. Some go out and help. Some loggers take their whole family out when there is machinery maintenance to be done on the weekends. Some friends of mine were married with the caveat that he would find another line of work because she wanted him to be home at reasonable hours at night. He did and they raised some pretty good kids. He's getting back into doing small jobs, but the kids are all adults and two of the boys help out.

Work hard, but don't neglect your family and keep them up and maybe even out on what you are doing.

I agree with Northman that a grapple skidder would be more versatile. You can work steep ground if you have enough winch line. Remember, it is easier to pull line DOWN the hill.
 
I have a 4400 series John Deere. It had been up at the farm for almost 9 months so I can't remember the exact series number. It is an open cab diesel with no loader on the front. I have a 12.000lb badlands winch on the front that was used maybe 3 times when I was logging those pine trees when the tractor would just spin.

Gologit I really enjoyed your post. I have to be honest with you I am scared about starting this, but that doesn't mean it will stop me. I have had a commercial caviar business and still do. I have found myself swimming in 33 degree water from a small mistake that turned into a huge disaster( no I didn't leave the plug out) However, the following month I made 30k fishing alone.

You touched on the bucking and log value. That is my biggest concern. I know what a stave log is on a nice white oak, but I don't know how to tell about anything in between there and railroad tie logs. I know I will make my money at the landing. I had touched on selling my logs at the landing and hiring a forester or broker to grade my logs. I think thats the only question I have asked that I still don't know is completely stupid or if I should be paying someone to grade for me. What you mow down to make a road is what sells here. White oaks are being bought up in this area like crazy with big prices compared to what we usually get here. If i get a 1.10 a bd ft thats great. I just have to make sure I'm not getting paid .70 a bd ft because of made up defects by buyers that they would pull because I am green.

I am not going to be a whiner. I am however going to work as hard as I can not to make mistakes. All cutting here seems to be select cutting 18" or more of any hardwood. Nothing else is touched.

My wife has known nothing slows me down. I have four boys that have been raised around commercial fishing and have no worries of including them in the logging industry. All of the work ethic you have touched on is who I am. I am used to 100+ hour weeks. I can't stand the thought of working for an hourly wage, or sitting around when there is money waiting on me. My wife doesn't care what business I am in as long as her credit card to her favorite store in the mall still works.
 
I had the same question. If it's the 35 hp yanmar, prolly not gonna work with a grapple. Matthew you have the advantage of having run a small business before. Gologit's post could easily be applied to any small business model. Every penny you can avoid spending at the job is one you can have at home. Every ounce of energy you can avoid putting into the woods is one you can spend playing with u'r kids. Again, best of luck
 
It is a bigger tractor. Not the second picture. Last year when I was trying to order a 3 point grapple I cant remember exactly but it basically looks like your first picture with an open cab. It seems like it was 86 hp. I cant remember if that was at pto or at engine. It is a category 2 so you know its over 50 hp. I will go to the farm later and see what it is because its bugging me. I could have swore it was a 4420 but when I looked on tractor data it was not my tractor. I will just take a picture of it today or tomorrow for that matter. If I was going to use something as small as your other picture I would just use my 4x4 honda fourtrax and a logging arch which I thought about doing before to offer strictly low impact logging. I just don't know if I would make any money that way.

Thanks guys.
 
If you got the cash go ahead and get a skidder, tractors are fine and all for farmers wanting to pull a load or two while the corn is growing or the snow is blowing, not so much for a person wanting to make a living at it. Barring a skidder a small dozer with a winch would work fairly well, just slower then a skidder, although you could work steeper ground.

To put it in perspective one of my early jaunts into logging involved a ford 9n and a crappy 3pt arch, 6 week ends(probably more its been awhile), one light load, spread out like pick up sticks. Watching the self loader toss them logs around and load the truck in 30 minutes with us trying to drag the strays to him, pretty much set the tone for my next purchase.

Gologit pretty much nailed it though, lots of crazy hours, lots of broken stuff that needs fixing... lots of grease... still would rather be doing this than the current day job (which is looking less and less necessary every week).

As far as selling the logs at the landing, its more of a regional thing, not done so much out here. Some mills want to send out a buyer, so they can give you a price fitting the wood while its standing, my experience with them has been less then savory, (oh yeah they shut down a couple years ago... bastids...) others really do want to come out and make a cruise so they can give you a price that fits the timber. Some outfits still buy on the landing (poles) but most would just like to see yer logs in their yard. Here they buy everything, and cull the culls, grading is done by the log rather then the load, although some mills scale by weight. Which I admittedly don't know much about. Anyway what I'm getting at is call around see how each mill prefers to operate, and go with it.

Private foresters are a mixed bag as much as gypo loggers are, (which by default you are soon to be a gypo, make us proud). Some are crooks with borderline educations, others are geniuses with borderline crookedness... just have to be careful while working with them until you find one that's not going to get you hosed.

For the forest brokers, most of the wood I send goes to what is technically a broker, they buy everything, and I mean everything, then they have to turn around and sell it. They may not pay as well on some species, but its easy the checks don't bounce and the rate isn't so much lower that I feel robbed at the end of the day. On some things they will pay much higher, since they are really an exporter, and export is gold... The bonus with these folks is they take mixed loads, so I can send them Fir, Pine, Maple, Cotton Wood, Ceder, Alder, Cherry, Hemlock, White Fir, Tamarack, and a few more I can't remember... all in one load, they don't care. Well they might but the scales are always OK so I don't *****... much...

Anyway to reiterate you really need to make some phone calls to the local mills talk to their log buyer, or at least the nice office people and find out for yourself what they want and how.

Also there is a program called height weight buck? kind of a redneck video game for bucking logs, I believe its from the university of Minnisota? Gives you a sudo 3d "log" complete with knots, heart rot, and crooked bits, you draw lines on it and compare the "ideal" bucking to what you did, points are how much cash you made vs how much you could have made... its geared towards hard maple but really all logs are about the same as far as defect, Stave, peelers, 1-2-3 saw logs, pallet etc, all depends on length+diameter-defect (not to be confused with board feet, as in logs X big or bigger and such length, of good quality=peelers or stave, anything less is well less...)


boy that's a mouthful enjoy, now quit talking and start making logs....
 
Thanks so much northmanlogging. By the way I was thinking of my old tractor. My tractor is a 5220 53 hp diesel John Deere.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/001/5/6/1569-john-deere-5220.html

I will have to read what you wrote a few times and have to wait on logging until I get a skidder. Then I have to learn how to run the skidder . haha. oh well at least they are designed to handle a roll.
 
Matthew, a man can go broke before he even starts work by buying equipment and you can go broke because you don't have the right equipment. Below is a link to the specs of a JD440B. As you can see it weighs at least 3 times as much as your tractor. The loggers here can correct me but I believe this is considered a small skidder by today's standards. Not saying you can't get by skidding small logs on flat ground with your tractor but you got to be more careful with impact loads, including snagging your log or tractor on a stump. The cost of a new rear-end or transmission work on your tractor could easily exceed the price of an old skidder. If you are not using your tractor for other purposes you might should consider cashing it in or trading it for the right equipment. If you are using it for other purposes then a break may have other costly consequences. Other than generalities you can value my comments at what you paid for them. Ron

https://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/non_current/skidders/440B cable skidder.pdf
 
U'r current tractor is roughly the same weight and power as my old 2wd tractor, which really wasn't enough to move logs at a rate I was happy with. I also broke a tie rod when I hit a stump while looking backwards:mad:, which wasn't expensive, but was a PITA waiting for the part. Regarding the truck, my property is pretty flat, and my "skidder" (old land cruiser with a cable and hook) can pull 36" ~16' without much drama.
 
Thanks guys. I can't trade in the tractor. I will have some issues over the next week. I have good credit but my credit union is small and they can't finance me on a skidder because they do not finance money on things they do not have in a valuation chart or some crap and they don't lend on things they don't have the ability to repossess.
The only place around here that would finance me on one was a kubota dealer with a very, very, small skidder that costs way too much so I am going to go to a national bank tomorrow and try there. I know my credit score is high enough. If that bank gives me the same run around I will have to go to a Cat dealer but there just aren't any Cat dealers around here listing used equipment as far as skidder. I have looked online at equipment leasing companies but haven't proceeded with them and don't want too many inquiries on my credit report.

Gologit I am trying to find a broker now. I just feel like if I find someone that treats me right it will take a lot of the guess work and worry out of selling logs. The only person I have found so far is a white oak buyer for american stave company. Nobody else for all of my logs so far.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.
 
Sorry for putting this in the same post but I just had a lightbulb go off from a phone call that is forcing me to ask this question and I have to focus on a skidder but wondered what if there would be any money in this.

I live in a very small community and a guy called I went to school with years ago that heard I was logging. He cuts firewood for a living. He clearly doesn't make any money. Old trucks, lives in a camper. Just a redneck from KY as you would picture.

He was looking for treetops and any log ends I cut off when bucking. Nice guy, but of course I had to tell him I don't even have a skidder to start work yet but he was more than welcome to call me back in a few weeks. I had mentioned firewood cutting before and discussed I thought there was no money in it or didn't see how to make money in it.

I then proceeded to ask him his prices because he was a talkative guy and he said he makes 100.00 a cord. I then proceeded to ask him if that was a face cord. He said no. That was a full cord.

A full cord up in Chicago is advertised at 450.00 a cord. I could buy it processed for 100.00 a cord. We are in the same quarantine area as them for the bugs. I wonder how hard it would be for the USDA allow me to skip right over the state line to haul wood up there to a wholesaler? I wouldn't even have to cut it. Just broker it.
 
Looks like a guy through LeaseQ has approved me for a skidder. I may be asking some questions on the skidders available for purchase. Too you guys with small scale or 1 skidder operations what is the cheapest I can get a good quality skidder for in your opinion of what a good skidder is? Thanks guys
 
MO....7500 cable, 10000 grapple.............much less would be pretty junky. but thats my expieriance here.

i much prefer power shift..........shy away from any thing straight manual.
 
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