hand filing

[fishhuntcutwood]

Hey FishHunt, I would think being able to sharpen a chain would be a major asset to a Gypo.

It is, and I can. All I was saying is that there's no test for me to pass for certification or anything like that. I've never had to have my sharpening QA'd.

Jeff

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi woodticks, what I think we have here is a failure to discuss the scientific aspects of the cutter itself.

The working corner, as you know, is the juncture of the FIRST areas of the sideplate and topplate to contact the wood. Just as there is a side lead on the sideplate and a front lead on the topplate, there is also a top lead on the sideplate. These are working clearances built in to the tooth to prevent binding that would inhibit effective "biting" into the wood fiber. Sooo... the leading edges of these "leads" is the working corner, the area of metal on the outside of the tooth actually meant to touch wood in the cut.

So as important as it is that the sideplate be adequately sharp and properly angled top to bottom, the critical length of the sideplate is only minutely longer than the combined thickness of the topplate and thickness of chips as determined by the depth gauge clearance. capiche?

The working corner does about 90% of the actual work. This can easily be proven by considering what happens when you cut a small amount of grit laden bark that ever so slightly peens the point of the working corner. Cutting efficiency goes down, in fact how do you determine if a chain is dull by looking only at the chain? The working corner is not crisp.

An example would be timed cuts between a properly square filed chain with the corner bisected versus an improperly filed corner that does not bisect this outside angle. There is an appreciable difference in cut times.

Another point possibly worthy of pondering is that a chain with too much hook is grabby because the end grain is not fully severed before the front lead is diminished by forward movement of the chain through the cut, whereas a tooth without enough hook is smoother but does not cut well because it does not allow the topplate to lift the chip in order to be severed. Both angles are crucial, only the trailing edges of the sideplate and topplate are along for the ride.

Speaking of grinding. I`ve found that if I am "pecking" the wheel into the tooth, I`m probably trying to take too heavy of a cut. I know through experimentation and observation that pecking often results in blued teeth, gouged cutting faces on the wheel(damaged profile), and increased variation of tooth angles and length between teeth. Very light, consistent wheel pressure against the tooth is the way to go, multiple passes are often necessary.

Maybe you would also like to inform your TH and TB friends that frequent dressing of the wheel not only prevents wheel loading, but also maintains wheel profile and exposes new sharp crystals that quickly cut the metal rather than burnish it which imparts unnecessary heat to the tooth. Sharpening the tooth and grinding the gullets are also two steps, not to be done all at once.
Hope this helps,
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

Nice picture of the cutter there CMF.
The picture below more attaquately portrays the innner workings of the top/sideplate relationship and it's integral parts.
The sideplate severs the chip while the top plate curls the chip, thus facilitating the effective ejection of the now 'springy' fibre which literaly bounces out of the kerf if the gullets have been cleaned out correctly, unlike the photo which is fresh off the grinder and never saw no vegetated matter in it's life before.
You see the whole thing is functionality based, where all cutters are happily & effortlessly singing along within the wood fibre
John

 

[Tree Machine]

You're a genus, a GENUS I tell you. You're way beyond a specie.

I love this information. It just makes you look at a chain differently. It makes you think about a chain in slow motion and what it's doing.

Still you don't need to know anything about the scientific aspects to be able to sharpen a chain properly. By analogy it would be like knowing the inner workings of an internal combustion engine to be able to drive a tree truck.

Personally, I appreciate very much the time you took to share that Mr.Gypo. A couple points there are new to me.

I have a question....? Does anyone hand sharpen chains that are NOT on the chainsaw? How is the chain held captive? Just curious.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

As I said before, just when you think you are pretty good, along comes someone even better.
Gypo's post and picture show just how far he's come since that goofy hook picture of his I used to illustrate too much hook.
My only contention with his post, is his definition of the working corner. When I think of a corner, it is just that, the point. He includes the entire top portion of the side plate in his definition of the corner. I'm no expert on definitions, or proper chain nomenclature, but by combining the side plate to the working corner, it limits detailed discussion of the side plate.
Gypo argued eloquently over at GF, the working corner does most of the work. In this post I argue the side plate does, not the top plate. Hence only half the working corner.

 

[jokers]

As I said before, just when you think you are pretty good, along comes someone even better.
Gypo's post and picture show just how far he's come since that goofy hook picture of his I used to illustrate too much hook.
My only contention with his post, is his definition of the working corner. When I think of a corner, it is just that, the point. He includes the entire top portion of the side plate in his definition of the corner. I'm no expert on definitions, or proper chain nomenclature, but by combining the side plate to the working corner, it limits detailed discussion of the side plate.
Gypo argued eloquently over at GF, the working corner does most of the work. In this post I argue the side plate does, not the top plate. Hence only half the working corner.

Hi Mike,

At what point does the working corner become the sideplate and can the corner exist independently of the sideplate? Can the sideplate properly exist without the working corner? What feature of the sideplate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed crossgrain? The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.

Russ

 

[kf_tree]

I have a question....? Does anyone hand sharpen chains that are NOT on the chainsaw? How is the chain held captive? Just curious.

oregon used to make a contraption that locked in a vice. it had rollers on each end and it was 2 piece so it could expand and contarct for differnt size loops. i saw one on ebay recently.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Mike, the reason for that huge hook is so that it has a larger capicity to accomidate the chips that are 'rolled' into a springy coil by the top plate.
This accumulation of springs, particularly hardwood is the reason for the huge rooster tails that are evident when we do an upcut, such as in the picture below.
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

orgegon used to make a contraption that locked in a vice. it had rollers on each end and it was 2 piece so it could expand and contarct for differnt size loops. i saw one on ebay recently.

I wish I had of known that one was on Ebay, I have been looking for one of those chain vises.
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Mike,

At what point does the working corner become the sideplate and can the corner exist independently of the sideplate? Can the sideplate properly exist without the working corner? What feature of the sideplate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed crossgrain? The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.

Russ

Hi Russ, glad you liked 'my' thesis on chain. It reminds me of the chainoil discussion, just not as spirited though.
John

 

[kf_tree]

this was done by hand with a round file.......this chain has even been in the wood already.

 

[Bermie]

Burrs and cutter length

OK, several replies to make here:

8' pieces of practice chain are held in a bench vice, clamp just the drive links, no problem.

The chrome is there to provide a hard surface, and it CAN peel back. Look for what look like tiny black 'streaks' coming back from the edge of the top plate, that is where the chrome has peeled away and exposed the steel underneath.
I carry a cheap set of calipers to measure cutter length and a bit of staple wire for when they fall out of the bag and get lost on the ground!

Cutter length is a contributor to uneven bar wear, a chain with short, long, short, long, cutters will cut curved, the chain will press more on one side than the other, wearing down both the top and inside of the rail. Not to mention the underside of tie straps, drive link gauge etc.
To suggest tipping the saw the other way to compensate for uneven cutting doesn't make long term sense, you shouldn't have to fight your saw!

OK

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Hi Mike,

At what point does the working corner become the side plate and can the corner exist independently of the side plate? Can the side plate properly exist without the working corner?

We don't disagree on what's going on, you just clump both plates together and call them the working corner. Because the two different plate serve two completely different functions, why lump them together?
Yes, the side plate can exist without the top plate. It would still cut the fiber, it just wouldn't peel it out and remove the chip, that's the job of the top plate.

What feature of the side plate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed cross grain?

The side plate cuts first, then is lifted out by the top plate, at least on a cutter like the one Crofter and Gypo posted.
With the old joke picture of too much hook, the top plate would be tearing the fibers apart before the side plate got near them. This is the drag you would feel if you ran a chain with that much hook. This drag is what guy sometimes think is making their saw cut really fast because it's pulling so hard.

The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.

Russ

It seems that your's and Gypo's relationship is so close you are starting to sound like each other. I'm sometimes astounded by how well he writes when he puts his mind to it.
I agree on his theory, but not the semantics.

 

[jokers]

We don't disagree on what's going on, you just clump both plates together and call them the working corner. Because the two different plate serve two completely different functions, why lump them together?

Well what are you saying Mike, that the working corner doesn`t exist and that it`s not a key, if not the primary component of the tooth?

Yes, the side plate can exist without the top plate. It would still cut the fiber, it just wouldn't peel it out and remove the chip, that's the job of the top plate.

Well wouldn`t that scenario be woefully inefficient? Hand saws use the equivalent of sideplates only, with set of course, because they are limited by the amount of force that the average person can exert on them. Bandsaw blades don`t count because they are not durable enough for handheld use in the way that a chainsaw is used.This last statement of yours is a fine example of semantics.

The side plate cuts first, then is lifted out by the top plate, at least on a cutter like the one Crofter and Gypo posted.

Mike, given that the vertical terminus of the sideplate is also the horizontal terminus of the topplate, how can you say that the sideplate cuts first? Yes I know that is what Madsen`s site says. It`s also not the only technical inaccuracy on their site. If I were to be benevolent I could superficially agree with that statement, but riddle me this Mike, how does this statement jive with your wood chisel example? It contradicts it.

With the old joke picture of too much hook, the top plate would be tearing the fibers apart before the side plate got near them. This is the drag you would feel if you ran a chain with that much hook. This drag is what guy sometimes think is making their saw cut really fast because it's pulling so hard.

You and I agree on this one.

It seems that your's and Gypo's relationship is so close you are starting to sound like each other. I'm sometimes astounded by how well he writes when he puts his mind to it.
I agree on his theory, but not the semantics.

Gypo really didn`t recently go to the Yukon, in reality he had slipped into an all girls finishing school for a couple of months hoping to meet some twentysomething hotties. He won`t say how he made out, but he also mentioned that he stayed in a Holiday Inn on the way home. At any rate, he`s been a changed man recently.

We could go on arguing our perspectives, but it really is semantics.

Later, Russ

 

[geofore]

angle iron?

Suh-weet CMF.

I added a handle on that one for better crankability. These are useful for when you happen to have a stump around. I decided I needed on right on my truck where I work on my saws. I drilled a couple pilot holes in my wood benchtop, whacked it in, clamped my saw into it and the first filing the stump vise popped tight out of the holes. It was seemingly really convenient, except it didn't work. I had to try something else.

These pics are of a crude first-try prototype, so they're ugly. However, the idea works remarkably well. The angle iron is welded to the stump vise.

I would really like to bring this idea to the manufacturer, but I don't speak Italian. Why wasn't this idea drummed up long ago, a benchtop version of the stump vise?

So you used pieces of an old bed rail for your angle iron. I weld up old bed frames to make shelves to store saws on. I weld 4" wheels on them so I can wheel them around the garage/shop and use 3/4" plywood for the shelves themself and they will hold more than a ton of stuff and still wheel around easily.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Russ, the girls gave me a makeover at the finishing school in exchange for some filing lessons.
John

 

[a_lopa]

fresh files and a file-o-plate do me,a vice is a must.takes me no time to get a rocked out p.o.s back to good,i dont like swapping chains from the bar and sprocket.if you cant sharpen/drop rakers on a 25" bar in 5 minutes you shouldnt be in the buisness,once a chain goes on a saw it should only come off when its throw away time.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If you rock out a new chain, to where the corner is rounded of half way back, there is no way you're going to file a 1/4 inch of metal off each tooth of a 25 inch chain and then do the rakers, in 5 minutes.
To just touch up a slightly dull chain, sure, 5 minutes, no problem. You might even be able to get the rakes done in that time.

As for not: blowing out the clutch and chain brake, flipping the bar, inspecting the rim and chain catcher, until the chain is wore out, that's bad advise. The exception is, if you are running into crap all the time and your chains are only lasting a day or two. From what I know about you, you're probably running the tip of your saw in the dirt like it was a trencher, all day long. So what you said makes sense.

 

[stehansen]

I have a vise mounted on the front bumper of my bucket truck. I sometimes use a guage but most often just go it freehand. I have tried my local saw shop to sharpen chains; however, they most often have the chain cutting too aggressively and the saw does not cut smoothly and jumps.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Part of the problem with rocking out is that the sideplate gets so severely abraided that the side of the raker hits the wood before the working corner does. Mainly because there is no working corner left. I think on the average there is only 20 thou. between the side of the cutter and the side of the raker. Once this clearance is gone then it's your rakers that will be doing the cutting.
The following picture shows some deliberate abrasion of the sideplate in order for all cutters to have exactly the same clearance between sideplate and side of raker.
John

John