arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
Reservoir do not know a few gallons. The cylinder was extended and retracted at least 10 times it operated at a decant speed. The vent cap is not plugged. The Hydraulic fluid did not even warm up.
Help hydraulic problem with splitter
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Reservoir do not know a few gallons. The cylinder was extended and retracted at least 10 times it operated at a decant speed. The vent cap is not plugged. The Hydraulic fluid did not even warm up.
Wife'nHubby
Addicted to ArboristSite
Late night/early morning muses: Any kinks or partial collapses going on with your hydraulic hoses when ram is under pressure?
Shari
Shari
arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
No, I have not noticed a collapsed hose. Later today I will try splitting a different piece of wood to see if it makes a difference. My other newer splitter similar size, some rounds will stop it but the engine will not stall and die? Is it normal for the engine to stall and die when it tries to split a tough round? This did happen to two different motors.
No, it is not normal to have an engine stall, especially on a return stop. If the pump is staying on high on the outward stroke, then, as mentioned, something is stopping it from shifting down. If you keep pushing it into an impossible piece, especially only on hi, then, yes, it might stall the engine(either that, or something else will give...). On the return, it should not stall the engine, as the valve should pop out of the return as the ram hits the fully retracted spot(pressure builds up). If the valve does not release, then, yes, the engine could stall then too.
I've only had one hydraulic gas powered splitter, and that was quite a while ago, so I'm no expert. However, I'm wondering about the valve? Maybe some crap in it not making it work right? I think your problem is in the valve, not the engine or the pump.
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arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
Stumpy 75 thanks for your reply, I tried the splitter again and when the cylinder retracted the control valve popped out of the dention spot it worked like it should. I think the problem is with the two stage hydraulic pump not going into low flow high pressure. The Splitter used to be in a rental yard and the pump was built in 2005 who knows how much it was used? I was able to split some wood but when the wedge stopped in the wood the engine stalled. I will probably buy a 11gpm or 13 gpm two stage pump and replace the old pump to see if this fixes the problem David
mga
wandering
the pumps are rebuildable/repairable
don't toss the old one. make it a winter project.
don't toss the old one. make it a winter project.
Wow, that sucks...scarey stuff....Hope all is well...
AKKAMAAN
ArboristSite Guru
Of some reason volume is added to fluid during its "trip" from tank and back to tank.....since there is no "warm up" expansion, it can only be AIR....check for air leak into the suction line.....and if there is a suction strainer involved, take it out and do not put it back...
Air leaks into suction lines, increases if suction line is collapsing, or strainer is clogged......
Air leaks into suction lines, increases if suction line is collapsing, or strainer is clogged......
I am hearing two separate issues here:
1. the oil spewing out, sounds solved by leveling the splitter but air ingestion is the next thing to check if it is still happening.
2. Stalling engine, came up along the way in a later post. Sounds like that has not yet been resolved.
From basic physics, the engine stalls when the torque to turn the shaft is more than the engine can put out.
That means either: a. engine torque is too low, b. or pump required torque is too high, or c. some combination of both.
For problem 2a, make sure the engine is strong first. I think you said the problem existed with two engines? Basics of fuel filters, clogged exhaust, worn valves or rings, carb settings, etc.
For problem 2b: The torque/hp required to turn the pump shaft is a function of (gpm x psi), with some conversion factors thrown in.
Search past history to see how two stage pumps work. Basically, the torque required is either:
(high flow from both stages x low pressure)
or (low flow from one stage x high pressure). If either of those two situations exceeds the engine available torque, the engine will pull down or stall.
The flows from the two sections are determined by the pump size, no adjustments possible. So that leaves pressures as something than can be adjusted.
The maximum high pressure (2500 or 3000 psi) is set by the relief valve in the directional control spool (in & out) valve. It is usually under a jam nut or cap. There are pics and instructions by others in past posts. Setting the RV requires a pressure gauge for safety.
The unloading point, where it shifts to low flow low speed, is adjusted on the pump. It is usually 600-900 psi, depending on the engine hp. It can be done without a gauge.
So the next step is to determine which of the two situations is exceeding the engine torque and stalling it.
Is it because the large pump section keeps working against a pressure much higher than its normal unloading (say it doesn't unload until 1200 psi)? That would stall then engine. That is my first bet.
Or, is it unloading properly, but then the small pump section is working against too high of a pressure, maybe 3000 psi plus? These two things will USUALLY be obvious as two separate events when splitting. Most logs don't immmediately need full pressure right away when the pump unloads to slow speed. It may unload at say 600 but then finish the split at 1500 or 2000 psi, and only need the full RV setting in a really stubborn spot, or at the end of the stroke.
The quickest checks, assuming you don't have a pressure gauge in the system, are to make sure the engine is strong first. Then, with no wood, extend the cylinder fully against the end of it's stroke. If it stumbles for part of a second, but then recovers and keeps running, the high pressure/low flow setting of the main relief valve is good and the pump unloading setting is probably too high. If it quickly stalls out totally, either setting could be wrong.
If it needs adjusting, I would back out the pump unloading setting (CCW) a couple turns until it does not stall. Cycle the cylinder, with splitting wood, and keep playing with it until the unloading pressure is low enough that the engine does not stall while on high flow/fast speed.
To set the main relief valve you need a apressure gauge for safety.
Or, get a new pump and give me the old one : ) I will bet it is either sick engine or pump unloading set too high.
kcj
1. the oil spewing out, sounds solved by leveling the splitter but air ingestion is the next thing to check if it is still happening.
2. Stalling engine, came up along the way in a later post. Sounds like that has not yet been resolved.
From basic physics, the engine stalls when the torque to turn the shaft is more than the engine can put out.
That means either: a. engine torque is too low, b. or pump required torque is too high, or c. some combination of both.
For problem 2a, make sure the engine is strong first. I think you said the problem existed with two engines? Basics of fuel filters, clogged exhaust, worn valves or rings, carb settings, etc.
For problem 2b: The torque/hp required to turn the pump shaft is a function of (gpm x psi), with some conversion factors thrown in.
Search past history to see how two stage pumps work. Basically, the torque required is either:
(high flow from both stages x low pressure)
or (low flow from one stage x high pressure). If either of those two situations exceeds the engine available torque, the engine will pull down or stall.
The flows from the two sections are determined by the pump size, no adjustments possible. So that leaves pressures as something than can be adjusted.
The maximum high pressure (2500 or 3000 psi) is set by the relief valve in the directional control spool (in & out) valve. It is usually under a jam nut or cap. There are pics and instructions by others in past posts. Setting the RV requires a pressure gauge for safety.
The unloading point, where it shifts to low flow low speed, is adjusted on the pump. It is usually 600-900 psi, depending on the engine hp. It can be done without a gauge.
So the next step is to determine which of the two situations is exceeding the engine torque and stalling it.
Is it because the large pump section keeps working against a pressure much higher than its normal unloading (say it doesn't unload until 1200 psi)? That would stall then engine. That is my first bet.
Or, is it unloading properly, but then the small pump section is working against too high of a pressure, maybe 3000 psi plus? These two things will USUALLY be obvious as two separate events when splitting. Most logs don't immmediately need full pressure right away when the pump unloads to slow speed. It may unload at say 600 but then finish the split at 1500 or 2000 psi, and only need the full RV setting in a really stubborn spot, or at the end of the stroke.
The quickest checks, assuming you don't have a pressure gauge in the system, are to make sure the engine is strong first. Then, with no wood, extend the cylinder fully against the end of it's stroke. If it stumbles for part of a second, but then recovers and keeps running, the high pressure/low flow setting of the main relief valve is good and the pump unloading setting is probably too high. If it quickly stalls out totally, either setting could be wrong.
If it needs adjusting, I would back out the pump unloading setting (CCW) a couple turns until it does not stall. Cycle the cylinder, with splitting wood, and keep playing with it until the unloading pressure is low enough that the engine does not stall while on high flow/fast speed.
To set the main relief valve you need a apressure gauge for safety.
Or, get a new pump and give me the old one : ) I will bet it is either sick engine or pump unloading set too high.
kcj
Captain Crunch
ArboristSite Operative
Before you drop a couple of Ben Franklins on a pump, get a 5000 psi gauge and do some checks to see what is happening. Others have done a nice job of describing how things should be working, the gauge will shot what is actually going on.
Kevin j covered it well, you need to find someone who is mechanical and knowes a little bit about hydraulics to help you adjust the pump. It is easy there will be a cap and a screw under it just like your relief on your valve. That controls the shift/unload point from low to high side. The othe 2 caps across from each other cover the spool valve that unloads the pump. If you pull that apart be sure to put everything back EXACTLY how it came out. I would do the adjustment first, that is probably what it is. CJ
jags
ArboristSite Guru
Listen to Kevin - especially the part about adjusting the pressure for the hi/low side of the pump. 10 to 1 odds, that is the trouble spot for the engine bog.
radroy92
ArboristSite Operative
Air in lines?
Your problem sounds like air got into the pump. Air is compressable where fluid is not (for our purposes). So the pump would not get a signal that it needed to switch to low volume/high pressure mode thus bogging the engine because it was stuck in high volume/low pressure mode. I'm guessing you have an axle tank and if it was tilted some 8 inches like you mentioned you probably had air get in the suction line. That would account for all the fluid shooting out as the air took up more space in the tank. I had that happen on my first splitter but never had it tilted enough to suck air into the lines.
I would run that splitter as is keeping the tank level and see what it does. There probably isn't anything wrong at all. Going to a new pump will probably be needless and a bigger pump will need a larger engine so more wasted time and $$.
Roy
Your problem sounds like air got into the pump. Air is compressable where fluid is not (for our purposes). So the pump would not get a signal that it needed to switch to low volume/high pressure mode thus bogging the engine because it was stuck in high volume/low pressure mode. I'm guessing you have an axle tank and if it was tilted some 8 inches like you mentioned you probably had air get in the suction line. That would account for all the fluid shooting out as the air took up more space in the tank. I had that happen on my first splitter but never had it tilted enough to suck air into the lines.
I would run that splitter as is keeping the tank level and see what it does. There probably isn't anything wrong at all. Going to a new pump will probably be needless and a bigger pump will need a larger engine so more wasted time and $$.
Roy
arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
will check pressure
Kevin J. and Captain Crunch thanks for the advice. i installed a new motor so I will buy a glycerin filled Gage at harbor freight and see what is happening. I learned from my neighbor who I parched the splitter that he had the same problem it would stall on rounds that were hard to split. Thanks David
Kevin J. and Captain Crunch thanks for the advice. i installed a new motor so I will buy a glycerin filled Gage at harbor freight and see what is happening. I learned from my neighbor who I parched the splitter that he had the same problem it would stall on rounds that were hard to split. Thanks David
arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
Installed pressure guage
OK I went to the Prince site and got some info on my prince 3000 control valve. The diagram recommended installing the Gage on the inlet side of the valve. I disconnected the hydraulic line form the pump where it went into the control valve and installed a 3/4" nipple and a 3/4 reducer tee black iron. Then I reconnected the hydraulic line and off of the tee I installed the new fluid filled Gage form Harbor Freight it reads up to 5000 psi. It normally cost $12.00 but it was reduced to $7.00. I ran the splitter and the pressure went up to 1200 psi and the engine stalled. So I turned out the Allen head screw next to the linkage for the handle and the pressure did not drop below 1200 and the engine still stalled, it also dripped a lot of hydraulic fluid. So I put some wood on the splitter and watched the Gage it went up to 1200 psi and the wood did not split and the engine stalled. I turned the Allen wrench screw in until it read about 2000 psi this split most of the rounds, but if I held the handle forward the engine would still stall:confused2: It splits most of the rounds and when I screwed the cap back on it stopped leaking. I split for an hour or so it worked good. But the engine is not supposed to stall right? I may buy another Gage and install it on my other splitter just to watch the pressure and see what is going on. David
OK I went to the Prince site and got some info on my prince 3000 control valve. The diagram recommended installing the Gage on the inlet side of the valve. I disconnected the hydraulic line form the pump where it went into the control valve and installed a 3/4" nipple and a 3/4 reducer tee black iron. Then I reconnected the hydraulic line and off of the tee I installed the new fluid filled Gage form Harbor Freight it reads up to 5000 psi. It normally cost $12.00 but it was reduced to $7.00. I ran the splitter and the pressure went up to 1200 psi and the engine stalled. So I turned out the Allen head screw next to the linkage for the handle and the pressure did not drop below 1200 and the engine still stalled, it also dripped a lot of hydraulic fluid. So I put some wood on the splitter and watched the Gage it went up to 1200 psi and the wood did not split and the engine stalled. I turned the Allen wrench screw in until it read about 2000 psi this split most of the rounds, but if I held the handle forward the engine would still stall:confused2: It splits most of the rounds and when I screwed the cap back on it stopped leaking. I split for an hour or so it worked good. But the engine is not supposed to stall right? I may buy another Gage and install it on my other splitter just to watch the pressure and see what is going on. David
jags
ArboristSite Guru
Sounds like the pump is not kicking into the low volume/high pressure side.
(ahumm....just like Kevin was saying:msp_razz
(ahumm....just like Kevin was saying:msp_razz
arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
Pump?
OK I said that I adjusted the spool valve up to 2000 psi.
If the pump was only working on high flow low pressure it would only be putting out 700psi.
Why am I getting 2000 psi?
I do not know what the problem is but the high pressure tells me the pump must be producing at least 2000 psi. David
Sounds like the pump is not kicking into the low volume/high pressure side.
(ahumm....just like Kevin was saying:msp_razz
OK I said that I adjusted the spool valve up to 2000 psi.
If the pump was only working on high flow low pressure it would only be putting out 700psi.
Why am I getting 2000 psi?
I do not know what the problem is but the high pressure tells me the pump must be producing at least 2000 psi. David
jags
ArboristSite Guru
Not true. If the pump stays in high volume mode, it will create as much pressure as your engine can produce (it appears 2000 psi), then bog the engine down. Sound familiar? (sorry, I am not trying to sound like a smart azz on purpose, it comes naturally:msp_smile
You must have an over sized engine to pump GPM. Am I correct?Edit: I just re-read your post and see that you are running a 6.5 HP on 11 gpm pump. Slightly over sized. So yes, I could believe that you can momentarily create 2000 psi at 11 gpm with 6.5 hp before stalling the motor.
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arlen
Me and my wife at Wild Amimal Park San Diego
Not true. If the pump stays in high volume mode, it will create as much pressure as your engine can produce (it appears 2000 psi), then bog the engine down. Sound familiar? (sorry, I am not trying to sound like a smart azz on purpose, it comes naturally:msp_smile
Edit: I just re-read your post and see that you are running a 6.5 HP on 11 gpm pump. Slightly over sized. So yes, I could believe that you can momentarily create 2000 psi at 11 gpm with 6.5 hp before stalling the motor.
Ok are you saying the pump is bad?
And it is putting strain on the motor when the pressure rises?
And the solution is a new pump?
I just need to break it down for myself.
I believe a 11 or 13 gmp pump would work.
thanks David.
jags
ArboristSite Guru
Nope - more than likely it is repairable. The part in the pump that makes the switch from hi to low is kinda like a relief valve. They can get dirty or broken spring, or outa adjustment, etc.
The first thing I would do, if I were you would be to mess with the adjustment. You might be able to free it up, and with your new pressure gauge, you will be able to set it again.
If that doesn't work, you may need to pull the pump apart and start looking at stuff. Who knows, maybe somebody before you thought that your adjustment was to adjust system pressure and screwed the dang thing in... Don't know till ya look.
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