Help with hydraulic system on processor build please

[wnafabrication]

I’ll try to give as much of the required details as needed so those with the know-how can offer advice. Me and the old (and getting older) man are currently bucking by hand, and lifting the wood up to the splitter to split into the conveyor. Dads ability to do this isn’t going to happen again this go round so I’m wanting to fabricate up the processor portion and make it so he can still contribute as he loves to do it.
************
Small firewood operation around 100 cords per year.
Purchased a pre-manufactured “Range Road” live deck and in-feed conveyor which the manufacturer says runs off of 16GPM 1800psi system that they use on their own processors. I do not know the pump type or engine HP they use for that but may be able to dig that up somehow.
We already own the out feed conveyor that has a separate small motor/pump that runs that so I guess some oil could be robbed from that system if needed for something small.
**************
Now for the stuff that I’m in over my head with…So far, I am looking at either a Gresen MGG 20016 hydraulic motor(8GPM@ 2000psi, 5000rpm max and 59in-lbs per 1000psi torque) or a Casappa Polaris of similar specifications (can take higher pressures around 3500psi) for the hydraulic chainsaw motor. Size of this type of motor I will need some help with. For the chain, I was thinking of going with a 14 tooth sprocket on a .404 harvester chain (based on the 5000 rpm of the MGG gives 5000*14*.067=4690ft/minute). Down pressure of the saw would be manually controlled unless one of the wizards here has a good solution to rig it up hydraulic without tinkering forever to get the pressure set right.

Splitting cylinder I was looking at a 4” bore w/1.75” Rod 24” long (Princess auto) running birch through a 6 way wedge. Max diameter wood I’d say would be 16-18”

So what would your recommendation be for the hydraulic pump/motor setup for this? The cutting cycle does not have to run at the same time as the split cycle but obviously if there is a cost effective solution for this to happen then great!

Thanks everybody!

 

[nathan4104]

I think the range road machine uses a 13hp or so sized engine. Only one function runs at a time….
Check out Blacks Creek processors. I’m partial cause I have one. Bar is belt driven.
if I were you I’d skip the hydraulic saw and use a chainsaw mounted on a pivot. Hydraulic looks cool but also $$ in the parts, hoses, and the HP to run and keep it in gas.
‘6k products’ has some parts and some good write ups that will help you!
I split Birch with a 3” princess auto cylinder through a 4 way wedge. (Mostly 6-8” but some are 16-18”, if i think it’ll jam I just drop the wedge and break it open 2 way then 4 way the halves) I took it to a machine shop and had the rod changed out to a bigger one, (as big as they could make a cap for) return time improved but I also added a pilot check valve (dump valve) to send that return oil straight back to the tank. All told it likely saves me a second or so on each cycle which doesn’t sound like much but adds up to ~10 min per cord.
Good luck!

 

[Ted Jenkins]

I think the range road machine uses a 13hp or so sized engine. Only one function runs at a time….
Check out Blacks Creek processors. I’m partial cause I have one. Bar is belt driven.
if I were you I’d skip the hydraulic saw and use a chainsaw mounted on a pivot. Hydraulic looks cool but also $$ in the parts, hoses, and the HP to run and keep it in gas.
‘6k products’ has some parts and some good write ups that will help you!
I split Birch with a 3” princess auto cylinder through a 4 way wedge. (Mostly 6-8” but some are 16-18”, if i think it’ll jam I just drop the wedge and break it open 2 way then 4 way the halves) I took it to a machine shop and had the rod changed out to a bigger one, (as big as they could make a cap for) return time improved but I also added a pilot check valve (dump valve) to send that return oil straight back to the tank. All told it likely saves me a second or so on each cycle which doesn’t sound like much but adds up to ~10 min per cord.
Good luck!

I agree with much of what Nathan has to say. At seventy it is not too difficult to cut eight cords out in the field. I would think to cut ten cords near a processor would be easy. I would cut the logs into the correct size and feed the processor which would save a ton on set up. I am working on some conveyor systems myself and would appreciate any suggestions to get them up and running. Thanks

 

[wnafabrication]

I think the range road machine uses a 13hp or so sized engine. Only one function runs at a time….
Check out Blacks Creek processors. I’m partial cause I have one. Bar is belt driven.
if I were you I’d skip the hydraulic saw and use a chainsaw mounted on a pivot. Hydraulic looks cool but also $$ in the parts, hoses, and the HP to run and keep it in gas.
‘6k products’ has some parts and some good write ups that will help you!
I split Birch with a 3” princess auto cylinder through a 4 way wedge. (Mostly 6-8” but some are 16-18”, if i think it’ll jam I just drop the wedge and break it open 2 way then 4 way the halves) I took it to a machine shop and had the rod changed out to a bigger one, (as big as they could make a cap for) return time improved but I also added a pilot check valve (dump valve) to send that return oil straight back to the tank. All told it likely saves me a second or so on each cycle which doesn’t sound like much but adds up to ~10 min per cord.
Good Luck

I’m leaning more towards the chainsaw on a pivot now that I am deeper into the hydraulic requirements and complexity of it all, so thanks for the point in that direction. Doing this will enable me to use a 2 stage pump as well which should increase split cycle times and decrease overall cost even more.
I’m interested in the Rod upgrade/dump valve. Is doing that quite pricy? What’s your thoughts on a regenerative circuit to gain speed on the return instead? Does heat become an issue?

 

[nathan4104]

The rod and labour at he local machine shop was around $300 if I remember right. They also changed the ports to 3/4”. This cylinder had cracked at the base end so it needed to be welded anyways hence the upgrade. The dump valves was around 300 by the time I got it converted to loonies, plus some new hoses etc…. Not a cheap upgrade but it did speed up the return.
Now, you need a reason to speed up the return. In small wood I was waiting for the cylinder to retract before I could finish sawing the next block to fall into the splitter trough. Now I don’t wait. Was it worth it? I dunno but it was fun and I learned a bunch so yea it was.
inremember looking into the regen idea, I can’t remember it all now so someone else who knows can add and correct me, but I think you need a valve that’ll do it, and the gains are only really possible by increasing all the hoses to 3/4”. The bigger rod without any of that is likely the best bang for the buck. Heat is starting to be my next problem…. I should have a much larger oil tank….how do I fit it on my portable machine without lots of fab work… on and on….. it never ends!!!!!
It’s fun to experiment and build stuff but sometimes the prices for a built machine make sense. Not sure where you’re located but if you’ve got a range road deck already, and a conveyor, maybe a range road processor is not a bad idea, or the Blacks Creek, or a good used Hakki.

 

[wnafabrication]

This explains the regenerative circuit. And yes, I got it wrong, it makes the extend part of the cycle faster, but has very little power this way, so you have to get creative. This page explains how to shift back to more power once the cylinder contacts the load on the extend. https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co...84332/book-2-chapter-17-regeneration-circuits

 

[rancher2]

Wnafabrication Welcome to the forum. I built a processor 8-10 years ago. I went the hyd saw direction. Wouldn't do that again. Way too much money. Myself I would go belt drive saw hand or hyd manual feed. Yes I know a chain saw on a pivot work good also. I get tired of chain saws. I would spend the money to buy a oversized rod cylinder. It speeds up the splitting process a bunch. You already have two of the main pieces the end feed and the conveyor. Look on 6K products web site. They are good people to buy your chain dive sprocket's form it you build a saw.

 

[wnafabrication]

Well hey thanks for the welcome!
I guess the oversized rod cylinder will save some heat build up by eliminating all the extras to make a regular one faster. Just have to see what the cost difference is!

I think adding a belt drive saw would be a nice upgrade. I haven’t looked at the belt drive setup at all but I will do some looking at them now thanks!

 

[muddstopper]

I’ll try to give as much of the required details as needed so those with the know-how can offer advice. Me and the old (and getting older) man are currently bucking by hand, and lifting the wood up to the splitter to split into the conveyor. Dads ability to do this isn’t going to happen again this go round so I’m wanting to fabricate up the processor portion and make it so he can still contribute as he loves to do it.
************
Small firewood operation around 100 cords per year.
Purchased a pre-manufactured “Range Road” live deck and in-feed conveyor which the manufacturer says runs off of 16GPM 1800psi system that they use on their own processors. I do not know the pump type or engine HP they use for that but may be able to dig that up somehow.
We already own the out feed conveyor that has a separate small motor/pump that runs that so I guess some oil could be robbed from that system if needed for something small.
**************
Now for the stuff that I’m in over my head with…So far, I am looking at either a Gresen MGG 20016 hydraulic motor(8GPM@ 2000psi, 5000rpm max and 59in-lbs per 1000psi torque) or a Casappa Polaris of similar specifications (can take higher pressures around 3500psi) for the hydraulic chainsaw motor. Size of this type of motor I will need some help with. For the chain, I was thinking of going with a 14 tooth sprocket on a .404 harvester chain (based on the 5000 rpm of the MGG gives 5000*14*.067=4690ft/minute). Down pressure of the saw would be manually controlled unless one of the wizards here has a good solution to rig it up hydraulic without tinkering forever to get the pressure set right.

Splitting cylinder I was looking at a 4” bore w/1.75” Rod 24” long (Princess auto) running birch through a 6 way wedge. Max diameter wood I’d say would be 16-18”

So what would your recommendation be for the hydraulic pump/motor setup for this? The cutting cycle does not have to run at the same time as the split cycle but obviously if there is a cost effective solution for this to happen then great!

Thanks everybody!

I dont like using gas powered chainsaws mounted on a pivot, mainly because it just makes to much noise, especially since you already have gas motor running right beside it. Here is a link with information to to figure out chain speed. http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_chn_spe... 1,minute. To convert to feet divide... More . This will help you choose hyd motor speed and sprocket sizes to build a hydraulic chainsaw. I will comment on the 5000rpm motor you listed. Yes it will work, with a big but. High rpm motors are usually low torque, require more hydraulic pressure to build the necessary torque and in turn requires big flow pumps and pressure. This usually means a much larger engine hp just to make the saw work. Best bet in my opinion is to use a large cuin motor with a high flow rate, but at a much lower psi pump pressure. The larger motor will give you the required torque at lower pressure and spocket sizing will give you the speed you need to cut the rounds in a timely fashion. also, if you look at factory processors, for the most part they are using gear motors and slower chain speeds than a gas chainsaw.

 

[wnafabrication]

I dont like using gas powered chainsaws mounted on a pivot, mainly because it just makes to much noise, especially since you already have gas motor running right beside it. Here is a link with information to to figure out chain speed. http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_chn_speed.htm#:~:text= Formula for Chain Speed Calculation 1,minute. To convert to feet divide... More . This will help you choose hyd motor speed and sprocket sizes to build a hydraulic chainsaw. I will comment on the 5000rpm motor you listed. Yes it will work, with a big but. High rpm motors are usually low torque, require more hydraulic pressure to build the necessary torque and in turn requires big flow pumps and pressure. This usually means a much larger engine hp just to make the saw work. Best bet in my opinion is to use a large cuin motor with a high flow rate, but at a much lower psi pump pressure. The larger motor will give you the required torque at lower pressure and spocket sizing will give you the speed you need to cut the rounds in a timely fashion. also, if you look at factory processors, for the most part they are using gear motors and slower chain speeds than a gas chainsaw.

Thanks for that link for the chain speed! I think I’m at the stage where I’m almost heading away from the hydraulic saw for now… I will have a look at “cuin” motors before I abandon the idea though. I’m sort of leaning towards running a belt driven saw off the same output shaft of the motor that will be running a 2 stage pump for the splitter. I like the idea of saving lost power from converting energy unnecessarily. Efficient power = less initial cost.

 

[Keder]

I’ll try to give as much of the required details as needed so those with the know-how can offer advice. Me and the old (and getting older) man are currently bucking by hand, and lifting the wood up to the splitter to split into the conveyor. Dads ability to do this isn’t going to happen again this go round so I’m wanting to fabricate up the processor portion and make it so he can still contribute as he loves to do it.
************
Small firewood operation around 100 cords per year.
Purchased a pre-manufactured “Range Road” live deck and in-feed conveyor which the manufacturer says runs off of 16GPM 1800psi system that they use on their own processors. I do not know the pump type or engine HP they use for that but may be able to dig that up somehow.
We already own the out feed conveyor that has a separate small motor/pump that runs that so I guess some oil could be robbed from that system if needed for something small.
**************
Now for the stuff that I’m in over my head with…So far, I am looking at either a Gresen MGG 20016 hydraulic motor(8GPM@ 2000psi, 5000rpm max and 59in-lbs per 1000psi torque) or a Casappa Polaris of similar specifications (can take higher pressures around 3500psi) for the hydraulic chainsaw motor. Size of this type of motor I will need some help with. For the chain, I was thinking of going with a 14 tooth sprocket on a .404 harvester chain (based on the 5000 rpm of the MGG gives 5000*14*.067=4690ft/minute). Down pressure of the saw would be manually controlled unless one of the wizards here has a good solution to rig it up hydraulic without tinkering forever to get the pressure set right.

Splitting cylinder I was looking at a 4” bore w/1.75” Rod 24” long (Princess auto) running birch through a 6 way wedge. Max diameter wood I’d say would be 16-18”

So what would your recommendation be for the hydraulic pump/motor setup for this? The cutting cycle does not have to run at the same time as the split cycle but obviously if there is a cost effective solution for this to happen then great!

Thanks everybody!

Hi
To split that with a 6 way and 4 inch PA cyl you need every pound of a 2500-2800 psi. System.
5/8 hoses best unless real short, mine off tractor 10 ft. 1/2 in. Will do.
Tractor 16 gpmin.
6 way big issue is angle of blades and output side has to be a bigger area than input side measured from centre of blades. Thickness of wings has to be accommodated.
Don’t rely on sideways spread to allow pieces to pass.
I use a 4 way now but adjusts up down or all way down.
Ask hydraulic shop about fast return set up.
And
Give the old guy a break!!
Working right a 4 inch cyl, 2600 psi will cut a 6-8 inch wet birch sideways or break something

 

[kevin j]

You could always start slow by using the gas powered chainsaw on a hinge with the intent of moving to a separate saw later if the volume of wood warrants it. Basically have an end goal in mind, but make design steps one at a time and see how much work it saves your dad.

Before upsizing the splitter circuit, you might try some sort of a mechanical sheet or plate on top of the split cylinder area so that if you cut the wood too early it drops on to a plate and then the retracting cylinder pulls out of from underneath it and drops the wood down into the split chamber. That will allow you to be advancing the log for the next cut cycle before the split cycle is completely finished. Using the chainsaw also separates the load cycle of split versus saw. I think the ultimate goal for a good processor is powered saw and appropriately sizing the load cycles for log advance, saw, and split, but for small quantities here you might gain a lot in your workday effort without going to a full bore processor design

 

[wnafabrication]

Keder, if the old man would take a break I’d gladly agree but a retired farmer isn’t about to sit on his ass and watch work get done haha!

Kevin J, having the round fall and wait or roll to the splitter will also help to solve those pesky ones that fall crooked and require the operation to come to a halt on most processors. Thanks for the tip!

I’m new to the whole firewood business but my background is Metal Fabrication and Power Engineering so creating an efficient machine that will not waste so much energy what i would like. That, and I'm a cheap bastard! Im an out of the box thinker and love to make things that are different but practical. 100% decided against a hydraulic saw at this point. I do not see any point in hydraulic saws on small processors. Here is what I have gathered this far...

Power losses converting rotational energy of a motor to a typical hydraulic pump are 10-20% or higher in high pressure systems. Then after that, you have more losses due to:
-lines due to friction and flow deflection,
-valves as well as accessories, such as filters and coolers,
-throttling, which on constant pressure systems are particularly high
Now you have to convert this energy back to rotational force to drive your saw motor so you can assume another 10-20% again... and lets not forget about the extra heat absorbed by the oil when the saw works through cutting the wood.

Power loss = Heat

All these issues can be fixed yes, but the only way is to spend more money on larger hoses, larger valves, larger heat exchangers (hydraulic tanks), and larger more expensive motors. You also can not use a 2 stage pump to run your whole system. You need to run a single stage pump, or a dual pump system. Unless you want to spend tons of cash throwing power at a setup just to get it to do what you want it to do, then you are stuck with a slow processor doing only one process at a time.

So now, I have arrived at belt driven saws thanks to another comment here. Did some digging and was able to find a video, which has hardly any views, but solved my question of "How do I run a pump and a pulley off the same motor?" Here's the video...
So he comes off the flywheel, great idea. He has a 24HP Honda running it but i don't think that would be necessary. More like some chrome rims for the new ride i think, but I could be wrong as i haven't looked at the power needed to run the saw this way yet.

Belts, lets use v-belts for example, have appoximately 95% efficiency. If a person used a serpentine type belt that is used on most cars nowadays, or a timing belt, you can be at 98% efficiency. Compare that to the hydraulic system above and you would be asking "WTF am I doing this for?" which is exactly what i realized after reading some peoples comments to my original post.

So next im going to look into how much power this is going to need for the belt saw, if someone has some info here that would be awesome!

Im hoping to be able to use a 15-16HP motor to run a 2 stage 9HP (15.2/3.3gals per minute) pump and the saw from a belt driven off the fan side. Pump will power a 2:1(ish) split cylinder, live deck, and infeed conveyor described above.

I may decide to get fancy and make it faster by using a Full Time Regeneration circuit – pressure-actuated to full thrust, as explained here starting at Fig 17.9... https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.co...84332/book-2-chapter-17-regeneration-circuits

No idea whether this will all work at this point but I will be looking into it!

 

[wnafabrication]

could someone comment on these regenerative circuits and if either would be a good addition to this build?

 

[muddstopper]

Just complicating things. Using counter balance and sequence valves will only add cost to your project and the amount of cycle time saved wont be worth it. You can probably work just as fast by manually shifting your regen control valve. It also doesnt address the issue of inadequate oil flow if in the future you do decide to build a hydraulic chainsaw. I am not sure what you are trying to do or accomplish. The use of a two stage pump is hard to beat when it comes to splitting wood. With proper motor sizing it is possible to run a chainsaw off the same hyd pump you are using to run the splitting circuit. Assuming you are going to have to buy everything to build your processor, why spend the money on sequence and counter balance valves when a single two stage pump can work. If your going to belt drive your chainsaw, the extra to make thinks fancy doesnt make sense to me.

 

[nathan4104]

It’s easy to get caught into the ‘speed’ trap. The biggest speeds in your operation are loading wood to the machine and clearing it away when it’s cut. It won’t matter how fast the splitter is if you’re fussing with blocks landing straight, or fussing with a crappy wedge, or the infeed won’t quickly and easily advance your log for the next cut.
Keep it simple until you have those types of bugs worked out. Then speed up where you wanna spend. It’s easy to leave Princess Auto with a few hundred in fittings alone.

 

[nathan4104]

Also, mine is powered with a 13hp Honda. It only does one Hyd function at a time and is still plenty fast that way.
The belt is a single ‘A’ or ‘4L’ type V belt. They last 20-100 cords.
The ‘clutch’ is simply an idler pulley on a movable bracket that engages/tensions the belt when you pull the bar down. It’s simple and works.

 

[wnafabrication]

I have racing blood in me… That should explain a lot I’m thinkin. I never said all my ideas were good ones. I appreciate the feedback!

It’s easy to get caught into the ‘speed’ trap. The biggest speeds in your operation are loading wood to the machine and clearing it away when it’s cut. It won’t matter how fast the splitter is if you’re fussing with blocks landing straight, or fussing with a crappy wedge, or the infeed won’t quickly and easily advance your log for the next cut.
Keep it simple until you have those types of bugs worked out. Then speed up where you wanna spend. It’s easy to leave Princess Auto with a few hundred in fittings alone.

Thanks a lot, I was deep down that rabbit hole of speed prematurely. I think I’ll use an auto cycle valve and see if I can even keep up to that as it is. If I make it out of P Auto not spending $200 on crap I’m doing good haha

 

[wnafabrication]

Also, mine is powered with a 13hp Honda. It only does one Hyd function at a time and is still plenty fast that way.
The belt is a single ‘A’ or ‘4L’ type V belt. They last 20-100 cords.
The ‘clutch’ is simply an idler pulley on a movable bracket that engages/tensions the belt when you pull the bar down. It’s simple and works.

Would you mind sharing your setup for the belt saw? My email is [email protected] if that’s easier!

 

[muddstopper]

Also keep in mind, it doesnt matter how fast the splitter is if you are waiting on your chainsaw to complete the cut. It doesnt matter how fast your saw cuts if you have to wait on the splitter. I dont know what a power engineer does but I would think with just a little self education, you should be able to figure out the hydraulic circuits. Even using a belt driven saw, you still have to consider hyd circuits for things like log advancement, wedge lifts. Some of this can be pulled off your seperate conveyor hyd system. Only problem is if you want to take the processor someplace else to do wood, you would have to also hual the conveyor along. Consider this, you wont be sawing while advancing a log to be cut. You will be wanting to advance a log while splitting. You can make the log advance work with the force of the splitter cyl as it is making the split. Chances are, you wont be sawing while splitting, instead only sawing once the splitter is fully retracted. Where I am going with this is you dont necessary need a half dozen pumps and tons of hyd power to build a processor for just a 100cords a year worth of wood. Use a engine big enough to pull a 28gpm 2stage pump and and use power beyond valves to control all the functions. Albeit it will most likely be one function at a time. The 28gpm flow even in low pressure mode will pull a pretty big hyd motor for a hyd chainsaw, if you decide to go that way, and give you plenty of chain speed and torque to cut even large rounds. It will allow for the use of a large bore cyl for splitting force. You can use a electric winch to drag the logs into position for sawing if you dont want to fab up a log drag using the splitting cylinder. Lots of ways to skin a cat, all you need is a sharp knife. Think your plans thru, and write it down so you can study the plans and make adjustments when you find a better ideal.