Hollow Oak - rotted wood inside
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NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Disinfecting may be an option, but they'd certainly be there when sealed w/ foam or concrete, too- both of which would add to the nice wet environment bac/fungi love oh so much.
Bear in mind also the epoxy "soaks into" the wood beyond the absolute surface you scrape to by about 1/8" (depending on species). Any fungi spores or bacteria entrapped into the resin are sealed in, and rendered neautralized.
Any excavation should be done entirely by hand- you don't want to damage living/healthy tissues.
Cabling was just another ref to overselling and ringing the cash register on a customer by doing cavity excavations.
I think you are banging your head against the wall or just plain dillusional if you think you can disinfect a tree to protect it from facultative necrotrophic organisms, like hypoxylon, that are essentially ambient.
I think you best protection here is to keep the healthy part of the tree healthy. For me, that starts with site.
I can't believe you people are selling this line of BS. Do it in your own time, but don't pass it off as doing trees or your customers a service.
Ever thing about the nice anaerobic environment you are creating?
I'll hush up now since it is my sister, not me that runs the microbiology lab at UT.
I think you are banging your head against the wall or just plain dillusional if you think you can disinfect a tree to protect it from facultative necrotrophic organisms, like hypoxylon, that are essentially ambient.
I think you best protection here is to keep the healthy part of the tree healthy. For me, that starts with site.
I can't believe you people are selling this line of BS. Do it in your own time, but don't pass it off as doing trees or your customers a service.
Ever thing about the nice anaerobic environment you are creating?
I'll hush up now since it is my sister, not me that runs the microbiology lab at UT.
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NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Healthy green wood IS an anaerobic environment.
"I think you best protection here is to keep the healthy part of the tree healthy. For me, that starts with site."
Absolutely!
"I can't believe you people are selling this line of BS. Do it in your own time, but don't pass it off as doing trees or your customers a service."
Believe it or not, it works, and well. I Started doing this 15 years ago on MY OWN trees.
"I think you best protection here is to keep the healthy part of the tree healthy. For me, that starts with site."
Absolutely!
"I can't believe you people are selling this line of BS. Do it in your own time, but don't pass it off as doing trees or your customers a service."
Believe it or not, it works, and well. I Started doing this 15 years ago on MY OWN trees.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
My cabinet scraper image didn't make it in my last reply.
This is really good information on trunk excavations. I'll have a bit more to offer if the thread moves on to treatment of cavities and abscesses up higher in the tree.
This is really good information on trunk excavations. I'll have a bit more to offer if the thread moves on to treatment of cavities and abscesses up higher in the tree.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
... no scraper image?
Hmmm, I don't think the site is accepting images today. -TM-
Hmmm, I don't think the site is accepting images today. -TM-
Kneejerk Bombas
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Just so I can understand what you guys are recommending, I linked a picture of a tree with a column of decay from an old injury.
On it I drew three areas.
The smallest area is what MD is suggesting should be removed, circled in red.
The area in green is what NE would remove and then apply fiberglass resin to.
The area inside the red is what TM would remove, using chainsaw and other power tools.
IF I have any of the three correct, and I hope I don't, I strongly disagree with any of the recommendations.
Notice in the picture that the decay continues even in the areas completely surrounded by sound wood. The only direction it does not move is through wall 4.
Consider NE's resin coating. If he only cleaned out the cavity to the red circle and applied resin, would it stop the other decay outside the circle? Obviously not.
Would MD's suggestion to remove the rotted wood inside the red circle stop or slow decay? That's debatable.
As for TM's complete cleanout, what happens to wall 4? This will be the end of the tree.
On it I drew three areas.
The smallest area is what MD is suggesting should be removed, circled in red.
The area in green is what NE would remove and then apply fiberglass resin to.
The area inside the red is what TM would remove, using chainsaw and other power tools.
IF I have any of the three correct, and I hope I don't, I strongly disagree with any of the recommendations.
Notice in the picture that the decay continues even in the areas completely surrounded by sound wood. The only direction it does not move is through wall 4.
Consider NE's resin coating. If he only cleaned out the cavity to the red circle and applied resin, would it stop the other decay outside the circle? Obviously not.
Would MD's suggestion to remove the rotted wood inside the red circle stop or slow decay? That's debatable.
As for TM's complete cleanout, what happens to wall 4? This will be the end of the tree.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Brian,
The picture was one I found on the web. Finding a picture of exactly what you have in mind might be impossible. You need to understand that just about everything involved in an injury is neatly pictured here. I think it is a perfet representation of CODIT.
Try to use your imagination. Think that this is a cross section above or below the hollow spot in the tree, remembering this is a two dimentional picture. Try to imagine this same injury at a future progression. Imagine that the area at the top where the wound wood has closed up, as still being open, if that helps you understand. For the discussion we are having here this picture should be all we need. We are talking in general, theoretic, terms, not a specific hollow.
If I had a better picture, or one that showed a cross section of both horizontal and vertical perspectives, I would gladly use it. Perhaps you have one.
As for my credibility, I'm sorry you feel I'm lacking. Admittedly I am no writer, and these are difficult ideas to present in one or two paragraphs, but if you can do better than taking cheap shots, please go ahead.
The picture was one I found on the web. Finding a picture of exactly what you have in mind might be impossible. You need to understand that just about everything involved in an injury is neatly pictured here. I think it is a perfet representation of CODIT.
Try to use your imagination. Think that this is a cross section above or below the hollow spot in the tree, remembering this is a two dimentional picture. Try to imagine this same injury at a future progression. Imagine that the area at the top where the wound wood has closed up, as still being open, if that helps you understand. For the discussion we are having here this picture should be all we need. We are talking in general, theoretic, terms, not a specific hollow.
If I had a better picture, or one that showed a cross section of both horizontal and vertical perspectives, I would gladly use it. Perhaps you have one.
As for my credibility, I'm sorry you feel I'm lacking. Admittedly I am no writer, and these are difficult ideas to present in one or two paragraphs, but if you can do better than taking cheap shots, please go ahead.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yea, no cheap shots at Mr Maas. He took the time to locate, scan, label and write an informative piece that took you less than 30 seconds to read and judge.
I appreciate that picture as it shows the stage of decay going on up above the hollowed-out cavity that we're threading on. Tree Machine, in contrast to MM's
I can only remove what decayed tissue I can reach. Removing what we've referred to as 'fluff' (punky, softened, decaying internal wood), isn't going to hurt the tree, but it also doesn't mean its going to help it. Mike's picture exemplifies that in the CODIT scenario, Compartmentalization doesn't always occur, and fungal mycelium enters into the vertically stranded phloem tubes and with powerful enzymes, begins travel upward into the core of the tree. Carpenter ants (as well as a host of other bugs) come in behind and find fungus rather yummy, and the pre-softened wood much easier to tunnel through. Can you say 'symbiosis'.
When I excavate out a cavity, I'm trying to destroy the living space for the bugs, smooth it out, and attempt to keep it drier than previous. I also tell the homeowner to 'Raid Ant and Roach' 1/3 of a can into the area this week, 1/3 of a can next week and the rest of the can 3 weeks from now.
It demonstrates to the homeowner that we're doing what we can. If I can stop the tunnelling insects I have helped the tree, a heroic, though likely a futile attempt. The tree may still be doomed. Previous points stand strong; care well for the rest of the tree.
I appreciate that picture as it shows the stage of decay going on up above the hollowed-out cavity that we're threading on. Tree Machine, in contrast to MM's
would not attempt excavation of this area. This area is inaccesable, well above the lower cavity that we're dealing with.
I can only remove what decayed tissue I can reach. Removing what we've referred to as 'fluff' (punky, softened, decaying internal wood), isn't going to hurt the tree, but it also doesn't mean its going to help it. Mike's picture exemplifies that in the CODIT scenario, Compartmentalization doesn't always occur, and fungal mycelium enters into the vertically stranded phloem tubes and with powerful enzymes, begins travel upward into the core of the tree. Carpenter ants (as well as a host of other bugs) come in behind and find fungus rather yummy, and the pre-softened wood much easier to tunnel through. Can you say 'symbiosis'.
When I excavate out a cavity, I'm trying to destroy the living space for the bugs, smooth it out, and attempt to keep it drier than previous. I also tell the homeowner to 'Raid Ant and Roach' 1/3 of a can into the area this week, 1/3 of a can next week and the rest of the can 3 weeks from now.
It demonstrates to the homeowner that we're doing what we can. If I can stop the tunnelling insects I have helped the tree, a heroic, though likely a futile attempt. The tree may still be doomed. Previous points stand strong; care well for the rest of the tree.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
So do you clean out the cavity, or WHAT???
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just clean it out as best I can. I'm not God. John Paul is.
ok2climb
ArboristSite Lurker
MasterBlaster,
Pick up a copy of A new tree biology by Shigo and enjoy the reading and many diagrams. Then draw your own conclusions and go from there. It looks like its a pretty debatable issue so far.
Pick up a copy of A new tree biology by Shigo and enjoy the reading and many diagrams. Then draw your own conclusions and go from there. It looks like its a pretty debatable issue so far.
Stumper
One Man Band
What is the gripe with carpenter ants? They live in dead wood but I've never noted much evidence that they cause damage to live tissue.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Carpenter ants are well-named; they can cut through from dead wood to live wood, expanding hollows as they expand their habitat. I have 2 wood slices showing this activity. Most all of the ext. lit. I've seen agrees.
Slice some stumps lengthwise through their area, Stumper, you'll see.
Do you have a before and after with a control group as well as the with/without group??
Hmmmm - didn't think so. Where have you published these findings if so?? Why is this info contrary to other info streaming out of academia?
You all have fun selling people on the idea of tree sterilization.
Thanks for the laughs!!
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Scooping out rotted wood is not my idea of fun but it is the first step in measuring a hollow and gauging fungal activity without invading the tree. What should we do when we see a Ganoderma conk, dig a little or say, "No, I saw it in academia somewhere that digging is no good" and just fire up the chainsaw?
Is that tree care?
The most serious mistake an clinical oncologist can make is to take standardized information and apply it.
The oncologist with the highest treatment success rates uses the 80/20 approach - 80 percent of recommended protocols added to 20 percent of non-approved methods. That right there separates the Drs. in for the money against the Drs. in for humanity.
Take time and examine events as they occur. Oftentimes even a geographical difference involded between a lab conclusion and a field problem divides reality from assumption. Political influence even futhers that divide, and factor in genetic variables and dept. Chairmen's egos, you have two worlds of reality.
The world was flat little over 500 years ago, those who thought otherwise were burned at the stake.
The oncologist with the highest treatment success rates uses the 80/20 approach - 80 percent of recommended protocols added to 20 percent of non-approved methods. That right there separates the Drs. in for the money against the Drs. in for humanity.
Take time and examine events as they occur. Oftentimes even a geographical difference involded between a lab conclusion and a field problem divides reality from assumption. Political influence even futhers that divide, and factor in genetic variables and dept. Chairmen's egos, you have two worlds of reality.
The world was flat little over 500 years ago, those who thought otherwise were burned at the stake.
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Originally posted by TREETX
Do you have a before and after with a control group as well as the with/without group??
Hmmmm - didn't think so. Where have you published these findings if so?? Why is this info contrary to other info streaming out of academia?
You all have fun selling people on the idea of tree sterilization.
Thanks for the laughs!!
Nate, my "control" trees are all dead. And you can have a difference in professional opinion without being snide.
Speaking of hollow spots, had a cutomer a few months ago ask for a recommendation on a maple; told her it should be removed. She called a day later to say she'll just see what happens. She called this morning- half the job was done last night, no need to climb it now!- and could I please get this tree off her mini-van?
I'll post pics when the film gets developed. Acer 1, Mopar ZERO
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I really am open to non-traditional ideas. Kudos to you if you are thinking outside the box. Maybe I mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that you were thinking inside the old box.
Normally I am pretty good at keeping one foot in academia and one foot open to new ideas.
I am just having a really hard time entertaining these ideas. Maybe I am just subconsciously thinking of the predominant local species, live oak, which is a very strong compartmentalizer.
I seriously am not here to make enemies, ........maybe I missed my calling?
