How rescueable are we?

[Dan@JBT]

A couple of weeks ago I was delivering some basic training and we had an incident where a trainee who had no previous history of it had a seizure, we were training tree felling in a forest at the time so he wasn't in a tree but he easily could have been. it was a bit of a wake up call and got me looking at rescue scenarios more closely.

I try to set myself up so i can be rescued easily enough if the need arises. some of the simple steps i take include:
having a second climber (and kit) on site.
I carry a knife. (important because i use a chest croll)
When i climb srt which is 90% of the time i tie an alpine butterfly at the base of my line so i can be lowered from the ground if/once i'm not double tied.

There is more i could be doing (feel free to make suggestions)

My question is if you are up 100' in an urban environment inaccessible to EWPs unconscious what would your ground crew do? could they get you down? or are you at the mercy of the emergency services who may be unfamiliar with trees and tree gear?

I was thinking about setting myself up as the person to call in my area for such a scenario but i am now thinking training the State emergency services so they would be better equipped to deal with these scenarios would be a better option?

 

[sgreanbeans]

Its true, that many don't have the second line in and the extra gear on site. I always have extra gear with me, but never set the extra line, tho I should. My boys can climb, not that great, but they can get up and move around. Think I need to practice this with them. I would be careful about training someone, I could see a huge liability suit waiting if one of your students pays half attention and gets someone hurt worse, then says, "Dan taught me"

 

[imagineero]

rescue training is compulsory for climbers at level 3 in aus, and for council work we are required to have the gear and a second rescue claimed climber on site some of the time. In my opinion it's pretty worthless training. You're required to pass 3 different scenarios, one involves SRT up the climbers tail, one involves setting your own line and lowering him off on his line, and the third involves setting your own line, lifting the climber, cutting his rope, then lowering him off on a remotely set line. All of the scenarios are very unrealistic for so many reasons. In reality, there is rarely a second fully trained climber just hanging around watching the first. Most tree companies are a small crew of 2 or 3 with only the one trained climber. Secondly, assuming you did have a second climber, who is trained, you probably won't have the kit ready. If you did, it's unlikely he would remember the techniques. If he did, it's likely you would die of suspension trauma or blood loss before he could reach you.

There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying. To complicate things just slightly further, the types of climbers who tend to get injured/need rescuing are most often the ones with little or no training, which makes the whole point of rescue training seem kinda silly. They get injured/trapped most often due to their lack of experience and training in tree work generally. The very rare tree rescues of live climbers I do see performed by emergency staff are usually to save guys who just shouldn't have been in the tree at all. It's stage fright as much as anything, they could have easily gotten themselves out of the tree. Of course, if they knew what they were doing they wouldn't have had any need to get out of the tree. See where this is going?

In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?

In a real world rescue scenario if you had a second climber, he's probably just going to spike up the tree at speed if he's any sort of climber, set a rope and lower himself off then lower you down with your own rope at the same time he's lowering himself. There are many complex rescue scenarios, but few you are likely to ever encounter with a live climber. Dead climbers kind of take the need for speed away. I've worked in mountain and cave rescue off and on for about 15 years now, and pulled out both live and dead bodies. Some of the rescue situations are complex, involving traverses or hauling bodies up on boards out of deep caves with limited access. I just don't see that much need for it with tree climbing. You can't get a helicopter down a cave, or close to the side of a thousand foot cliff. The trees we work on are generally near fire brigades, and plenty of people around. Those people have big ladders, and cherry pickers, helicopters etc. You're either going to not hurt yourself that much and get out of the tree, or you'll be dead before they arrive.

Shaun

 

[pdqdl]

r...

In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?
...Shaun

Actually, that is what I do, if I am working a bigger tree, particularly if it is not a removal. Good post, though. I agree; trusting the groundies or yourself to not cut the ascending line is a big concern.

BTW: I don't use any slings or other contraptions at the base of the tree. I just wrap the rope around the tree 5 times and put a simple tie-off on it. NO WAY can any groundie be stupid enough to untie it accidentally, or lose control because it wasn't secured well. 5 wraps on a tree doesn't even need a knot to hold me in the tree, and it makes sure that nothing else can get a hold of the tail and pull it out. It is just additional security for both ends of the rope.

 

[Dan@JBT]

Its true, that many don't have the second line in and the extra gear on site. I always have extra gear with me, but never set the extra line, tho I should. My boys can climb, not that great, but they can get up and move around. Think I need to practice this with them. I would be careful about training someone, I could see a huge liability suit waiting if one of your students pays half attention and gets someone hurt worse, then says, "Dan taught me"

That is why i am thinking about training people who already have most of the rescue/medical knowledge required and just need a bit of industry specific knowledge ie big shot arborist saddles etc. good point tho. cheers.

 

[Dan@JBT]

Good post Shaun, I still have a lot to learn but i'll get there...

just a few things...

Are you saying the training is worthless so it should be scrapped or so it should be improved?

There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying... the example was a seizure experienced by a trainee weeks ago.

In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?

you're talking about setting this up for drt, i use srt so it's even easier to set up though only super effective if i'm not double tied. (I do trust my main groundie/back up climber he has proven himself time and time again in crucial situations.)

Thanks.
Dan

 

[jefflovstrom]

We do not live in a perfect world.
Jeff

 

[imagineero]

Are you saying the training is worthless so it should be scrapped or so it should be improved?

There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying... the example was a seizure experienced by a trainee weeks ago.

I think it ought to be scrapped. In my opinion it's just another way for employers to waive their duty of care and avoid future liability issues. Based on my experience, most of the guys doing the course struggle (or fail!) on the day, despite preparing with study beforehand, having been trained on the day, reminded several times, having the equipment ready, watching someone perform the exact same rescue immediately before they did, having their harness on, having no actual stress/pressure beyond passing the test, and receiving pointers while doing it! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a week later they would all fail, and that several would make critical errors which would result in either themselves or the person they are rescuing being exposed to further danger or harm. I'd bet more than half would not even be able to remember the details of the rescue after a week. The techniques taught are too impractical, and too infrequently practiced to be of any use. In truth, a competent climber could make the rescue without any training, while an incompetent climber could never perform the rescue despite training.

Before you get involved in giving rescue training, go and get some. The existing techniques are slow, and for a reason.

Shaun

 

[pdqdl]

... In truth, a competent climber could make the rescue without any training, while an incompetent climber could never perform the rescue despite training.
...

Yep, so true.

Here is the real problem, as mentioned previously. Almost nobody keeps two competent climbers on the same job. Nobody is going to pay climbers wages to a groundie, and not many climbers are willing to hang around as an underpaid groundie. There are probably a fair collection of foremen, bosses, and owners that could pull off a rescue but have gone a bit to seed from not doing it all the time. I would be a good example of the last group.

So...as a climber, you are pretty much committed to taking care of yourself.

 

[Dan@JBT]

I'm obviously part of a lucky minority that does have a good second climber/kit on site (who is paid the same as me as a secondary climber and foreman).
It's clear that generally current standards are not practical and current training ineffective.
I am going to try to improve my own skills and expand on my own experiences, and where possible make some positive changes to the arboriculture industry at lease in my neck of the woods.

Climb smart
Climb safe

Dan

 

[treesmith]

We did aerial rescue at college, I doubt we could have saved many people in an urgent situation, not till we were any good at climbing anyway. It worked in the sense that you had a reference point, but it was basically a best case scenario, even the trees were perfect

 

[beastmaster]

I took a rescue training class about 6 months ago. I wasn't impressed at all. Lots of the techniques are very gear intensive and complexed, to much so to do a rescue if time was important . Im not saying I didn't learn things, but not everything they teach is real world. I wouldn't hesitate a second to go up to rescue someone and I'm pretty confident I could do it safely and quickly.
Of course I don't have anyone who could rescue me 90% of the time. The best I could hope for is I could get an 8 plate hooked up. I'v showed my groundies how to work it from the ground.
I am going to start using a gri gri on my SRT line that I attach to the base of the tree so I could possibly be lowered in case of a mishap.
I have very little faith in the majority of ground people I work with to be able to pull off anything but the simplest of maneuvers to save me if I needed it. I have great faith that they could do something that would be cause for me to be rescued though.
I'v had a groundy untie my SRT line at the base of a tree one time. Lucky for me it wasn't my only tie in.
I'd like to see more thought on palm rescue. Palms get a few climbers every year here in So. Calif. Often times there in back yards and near HV with no bucket or ladder access. You can die in as little as 7 minutes. I have a few techniques I use that could save you from a agonizing death. I've talked to my groundies about it before. In a last dish effort I'd want them to fall the palm.

 

[imagineero]

I remember a case last year (wasn't the first time this has happened!) when a climber doing a washingtonia palm had the skirt collapse on him, pinning him arched over backwards still spiked in. He was unable to move and quickly suffocated. His ground crew could do nothing in the couple of minutes that it took for him to die. He was recovered by EMT workers as I recall. It made me look at palms with big skirts in a different way, though I'll admit I haven't come up with a better plan. I try to polesaw as much of the fronds off from the ground as I can before getting in the tree, mainly because I hate the dust and the spikes.

I received a hairline fracture on the wrist this year from a washintonia frond. It was the most unlikely thing. The fronds only weigh a couple pounds dead. I cut a frond and it bounced in an odd way and the spiky end came down like a hummer swing and contacted a bone in my wrist with just one dead spike. Didn't hurt that much at the time but felt weird that night and I went in for an x ray and they found a hairline fracture there.

 

[bootboy]

This is one thing I try to constantly be aware of while climbing. Part of preparing to make any significant cuts or moves in the tree, is thinking about possible consequences of your actions, and if in the unlikely event, how easily you can either self rescue or be accessed for rescue by someone else.

Inasmuch as possible, I try to always have two options: self rescue, and ground based rescue. Once you work those out, they're pretty easy to integrate into your climbing strategy.

Always be thinking ahead. It does two things, it improves your access, and keeps you out of trouble in the first place.

 

[beastmaster]

Since I contract a lot, I find my self in dangerous situations. That is why I get called in the first place. If it was easy or safe they would have their climbers do it. The worse part is working with people I don't know. I am always aware of potentially dangerous situations and try my best to have back up plans in effect. Number one is having a direct line out of the tree. I like to have a rope choked around what I'm working on that I can come straight down on with a gri gri or a rope wrench one handed if need be.
Rigging up an escape line while bleeding out or crushed won't be easy. I'v been very lucky in my 30+ years of climbing. I'v never been seriously injured, but have had enough close calls and near misses to know it could happen in an instant. I'v seen a lot of bad accidents and try to minimize any chance of one by thinking out my moves in advance and having back up plans.
I wish climbers and ground people were better trained. I see guys all the time cutting over their ropes up in the tree. Or even over their limbs.
For every good climber there are half a dozen dummy's with barely a clue. I've seen disparate owner operators put people in trees that shouldn't be there when they had no one else. Lots of guys lie about their experience level. I'v seen some guys so loaded or tweeked out they shouldn't be driving never mind climbing a tree with a chain saw. My Grandma use to say God look out for drunks and fools, lots of climbers have double protection if that's true.
I know some big professional tree companies, follow all the rules and enforce safety, but most don't. I'm surprise more people don't get injured. It's not for lack of trying.
A good crew looks out for one another. I watch other climber when their in the trees, trying to be aware of where their ropes are, and what not. I'v had 5 people on the ground just staring up and not notice my lanyard was over a stub or i still had a rope attached to a piece I'm ready to cut. Once I had several guys holding the wrong rope as I cut a piece.
My point is most the time your on your own up there and had better be looking out and try to be as safe as possible. being aware of the worse case scenario and taking precautions. Don't rush and don't climb when your tired and wore out, which is advice I need to follow my self.

 

[N-m]

I do not work in this industry but have several thoughts that I would help someone since I do have personal experience in other areas.

First, my Podunk town has a ladder truck and numerous fat firemen. They are good people, but they are never going to fool with climbing a tree when they can call for another truck. Arguably the call to 911 will include a description of what is going on and the "fire brigade," as Shaun calls it, will roll that truck at the beginning. I would love to see the tree their truck can't reach around here, but that is no help for someone that does not live around here.

Second, a distant relative was working for asplundh and fell out of a tree. Reportedly he was over one hundred feet up when he cut his belt and landed on his back, breaking it. From the outside it looks like falls would be a bigger problem to address which negates the need for vertical rescue.

Third and again looking in from the outside, I would think blood loss for any number of reasons would be the most crucial thing for anyone running a saw in or out of a tree to address. If that's the case one should seriously consider addressing "self aid" where the injured actually takes care of theirself while/if still conscious before thinking about a rescue. A rescue in ideal conditions will not occur within minutes and you can easily bleed out by then, all the while conscious and capable of at least stopping blood loss if you have some simple training and tools.

In many circles it is now self aid, communicate there is a problem, continue self aid while awaiting rescue if one cannot rescue their self, and finally first aid by a rescuer and then an actual rescue. We still have people sitting around waiting on someone else to do something when they could easily save their own life since the injured does not know a few simple things.

 

[imagineero]

I don't know anybody who carries a small first aid kit in the tree, but we probably ought to. There are straps on the back of some harnesses for carry it, the treemotion has them. We probably ought to carry at least a compression bandage, packaged in such a way you can open it one handed. Wouldn't hurt to have a practice at opening and applying it to yourself also. The most common saw injuries for climbers are all upper body, and mostly the left arm due to crossing arms while cutting or getting your cut/grab sequence confused while in a rush. One of the most life threatening injuries which I've seen a few times is where the climber reaches over their saw with the left arm, and the saw kicks back, making a good mess of the underneath of the left arm.

We all have the most important tool for rescue which is our phone. Panic is a very real thing, and facing an emergency alone is never a good idea. Even just having EMT staff turn up gives a great feeling of relief which can make it easier to hold on.

I'm very much a believer in self reliance, though I've worked in rescue in the past. I believe we all have only one freedom, which is the freedom to do whatever you want, and any time. We all have only one responsibility, which is to accept the consequences of our actions no matter what they are. Protection from the consequences of our actions often comes at the cost of freedoms, and looking at it in that light I prefer to be left to my own devices. To some extent I don't feel sorry for people who get hurt/killed in this line of work. The knowledgeable ones knew what they were doing, and accepted the risk. The ones that never took the time to learn shouldn't have been there in the first place, and rescuing them is kind of like saying it was ok to do what they did. Sounds kinda harsh, but climbing is a job for those who lead.

When it comes to self rescue strategies, there's the ground tie off which you can use either SRT or DRT if you trust your crew. Personally I don't use it. The primary parachute for me is proper techniques and skills, followed by the right mindset. There's no PPE in the world that substitutes for proper climbing, cutting and rigging. Using your head will keep you out of trouble, and if you have a good crew that keeps an eye out for you also then that's a big plus. The backup parachute for me is making sure my line always reaches the ground so I can get out of the tree in a hurry one handed if I need to. My crew is good about keeping my line untangled, clear, and out of the working zone so it will run true should I need it.

Shaun

 

[beastmaster]

I do not work in this industry but have several thoughts that I would help someone since I do have personal experience in other areas.

First, my Podunk town has a ladder truck and numerous fat firemen. They are good people, but they are never going to fool with climbing a tree when they can call for another truck. Arguably the call to 911 will include a description of what is going on and the "fire brigade," as Shaun calls it, will roll that truck at the beginning. I would love to see the tree their truck can't reach around here, but that is no help for someone that does not live around here.

Second, a distant relative was working for asplundh and fell out of a tree. Reportedly he was over one hundred feet up when he cut his belt and landed on his back, breaking it. From the outside it looks like falls would be a bigger problem to address which negates the need for vertical rescue.

Third and again looking in from the outside, I would think blood loss for any number of reasons would be the most crucial thing for anyone running a saw in or out of a tree to address. If that's the case one should seriously consider addressing "self aid" where the injured actually takes care of theirself while/if still conscious before thinking about a rescue. A rescue in ideal conditions will not occur within minutes and you can easily bleed out by then, all the while conscious and capable of at least stopping blood loss if you have some simple training and tools.

In many circles it is now self aid, communicate there is a problem, continue self aid while awaiting rescue if one cannot rescue their self, and finally first aid by a rescuer and then an actual rescue. We still have people sitting around waiting on someone else to do something when they could easily save their own life since the injured does not know a few simple things.

A ladder truck is limited to where it can go. In the back yard or small access road, or a hilly or mountain environment where a lot of trees are, the fire dept. would be helpless. I don't think they climb trees, and surely not difficult trees.
Self rescue is a giving if your conscience and alert. Its the situations where you are not in control of your situation. Passed out, pinned and can't move, arms blown off by HV wires,there are many scenarios, and there all bad.
I check into getting a pak of "blood stopper"' that could be poured on a big wound and suppose to make the blood clot up immediately. I've seen some guys wear them on the back of their saddles. I think I'd to with a a piece off rope tied off above the wound.
I don't think as many guys get injured from falling as the general public thinks. Electricity might be no. 1, getting cut or crushed up there also. Heart attacks or heat strokes, most of those don't lend them selfs to self rescue.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Your talking about QuickClot, they give it out to Jarheads. Leaves a nasty scar, but works.

 

[beastmaster]

I read that it can do damage all by it self. Kind of turned me off from it. Most serious cut we suffer from are on our extremities and blood loss can be slowed with a compress or a really serious cut a tourniquet would be affective in an emergency.