How to properly use wedges...

[John Ellison]

Fiddlefart j/k:greenchainsaw:
Does GOL say that all timber should be fell that way, open face, then bore in back cut and release? No exceptions?

 

[tek9tim]

Each to his own dropping a timber, BUT. When you say you know everything about anything, it's time to eat the TEK 9 .
The GOL/MEMIC, Certified Professional Logger program is meant for former know-it-alls like me who thought, because of years of hack chainsaw use had nothing to learn. It teaches real-world techniques for safety, maintenance, accuracy, AND ( hear it ) efficiency and speed.
It works and has worked for pros here and overseas (Sweden). I can drop the scariest trees where and how I want. No front end loader or skidder, no lines to the truck. Just techniques and wedges. Softwood, hardwood, heartwood rots, leaners to hell. Open face cuts, planning, triggers, wedges, escape clearings, even handling the saw weapon are all part of my now dilettante cutting. They work.

Yeah, you missed a few things in my post. First off, I did not say I know everything. I, in fact, disowned that twice. Once in saying Dent's stuff works for us, and second in saying I am not a production feller. I don't know what it is about people that have gone through GOL, but it seems they think that it is the ONLY way to cut a tree. Sorry, I made a generalization. I realize that not everybody can be like that, but it has been my experience that most are. I will fully acknowledge that the techniques have their place. The forests of the west coast aren't it. I think the converse of my saying "I guess what it comes down to is that if what we do didn't work or proved to be unsafe, would we do it?" was missed. If GOL techniques didn't work, would east coasters still use them? Of course not.

I'm glad you were able to go through a program that got you thinking about cutting safety. It seems most people who have been cutting for any decent amount of time without proper training in the beginning are reluctant to take any advice, and again, it's great that you kept an open mind and learned a lot.

Also bear in mind that I'm not a total knucklehead, I am a class C faller with the Forest Service (something that takes an average of 7-10 years to get), and have been through multiple courses coupled with working under much more experienced sawyers for a few years.

And you talk about no ropes/rigs... I've used a rope on 2 trees in my life, and most of the trees I drop you could not get a piece of equipment within a half mile of.

And again, imagine the sketchiest tree you've dropped, light it on fire, then drop it. Bet you won't waste much time in there. For me, one of my major focuses for safety is speed. Plan exactly what I am going to do, and then make my cuts in the quickest and most effecient way that is applicable based on the tree as a whole, which might just be an open face and a bore in backcut.

 

[logbutcher]

Felling TechniqueS

Yeah, you missed a few things in my post. First off, I did not say I know everything. I, in fact, disowned that twice. Once in saying Dent's stuff works for us, and second in saying I am not a production feller. I don't know what it is about people that have gone through GOL, but it seems they think that it is the ONLY way to cut a tree. Sorry, I made a generalization. I realize that not everybody can be like that, but it has been my experience that most are. I will fully acknowledge that the techniques have their place. The forests of the west coast aren't it. I think the converse of my saying "I guess what it comes down to is that if what we do didn't work or proved to be unsafe, would we do it?" was missed. If GOL techniques didn't work, would east coasters still use them? Of course not.

I'm glad you were able to go through a program that got you thinking about cutting safety. It seems most people who have been cutting for any decent amount of time without proper training in the beginning are reluctant to take any advice, and again, it's great that you kept an open mind and learned a lot.

Also bear in mind that I'm not a total knucklehead, I am a class C faller with the Forest Service (something that takes an average of 7-10 years to get), and have been through multiple courses coupled with working under much more experienced sawyers for a few years.

And you talk about no ropes/rigs... I've used a rope on 2 trees in my life, and most of the trees I drop you could not get a piece of equipment within a half mile of.

And again, imagine the sketchiest tree you've dropped, light it on fire, then drop it. Bet you won't waste much time in there. For me, one of my major focuses for safety is speed. Plan exactly what I am going to do, and then make my cuts in the quickest and most effecient way that is applicable based on the tree as a whole, which might just be an open face and a bore in backcut.

We don't have real Smoke Jumpers or real forest fire fighters the way the Forest Service trains out West. Different conditions, different forests, few large scale forest fires. What are the regs for Class C ?

That jpg you had is not any of the GOL/CPL/MEMIC bases of felling. Like anything -- think basic training, firearm or climbing training---it's a bag of techniques, an approach to felling. It includes safety, AND efficiency, AND speed. The physics of using wedges to 'lift' a leaner to fall in a not so obvious direction is effective. I've used wedges to drop a 38" DBH fully branched "dead" red oak. This is not fireline cutting or fighting a forest wildfire. Not something I'd want to have to do; too much like a combat situation. Serious, dangerous, team oriented. Most of us cut solo here.
Look up the GOL manuals, and the comments from both "pros" and other GOL vets. Think of it as an approach to cutting including planning and escape. A bag of tricks like anyone who harvests with or without heavy mechanized equipment.
There's no single "way" to drop trees in GOL; it's a mindset, a bunch of techniques and tactics to drop fast, where you want the wood to go, and to protect yourself.
Works for some.
Flushed out Fiddlefart 1 Flush away.

 

[logbutcher]

Gol

Morning Timmy:

Chainsaw Safety Training Game of Logging Statements

Level I focuses on introducing the participant to open face felling and the development of techniques to safely use it. Topics covered include personal protective equipment, chainsaw safety features, chainsaw reactive forces, bore cutting, pre-planning the fell, and understanding hinge wood strength.

Level II focuses on maximizing chainsaw performance through basic maintenance, carburetor setting, and filing techniques. Limbing and bucking techniques are introduced, spring pole cutting is covered and more felling is practiced.

Level III focuses on techniques for handling difficult trees. Topics covered include limbing, height measurement, segment calculations, wedging techniques and hinge placement. The felling is done against the tree's natural lean and participants also limb and buck using techniques demonstrated in level II.

Level IV focuses on ways to maximize a harvest plan for safety and productivity. Felling is practiced at working speed using all the techniques from previous levels. This level is geared to the user group.

Forwarder & Skidder Training

Forwarder/Skidder operators work in conjunction with chainsaw operators, in this one day training program, to pre-plan efficient, economical and safe as well as environmentally sound methods of tree removal. This training covers maintenance, pre-planning, security and the challenges of working with others, communication, a flagging system (felling direction & trails), pattern felling technique, skid trail placement, stream crossings, landing and site consideration, methods of skidding, and sound management practices.



The use of pre-planning, job layout and organization will lead to a safe, quality and profitable method of tree removal.



Topics Covered:
1. Personal Protective Equipment
2. Operator Pre-check
3. Pre-planning skid trails / job layout
4. Operator skill & technique
5. Calculating skidding costs



Site Requirements:
1. Harvesting site with a section to be harvested.
2. Forwarder/Skidder
3. Map

Not too bad, huh ? I flushed opcorn: this from the GOL site. Just one way to cut along with real world time, books like Dent's, and experience. NO fire fighting techniques involved; it's another kind of cutting. N.M.C.

 

[boatermark]

GOL, Felling Techniques, Wedges

That jpg you had is not any of the GOL/CPL/MEMIC bases of felling.

It includes safety, AND efficiency, AND speed.

There's no single "way" to drop trees in GOL; it's a mindset, a bunch of techniques and tactics to drop fast, where you want the wood to go, and to protect yourself.

Well said!

I don't know what it is about people that have gone through GOL, but it seems they think that it is the ONLY way to cut a tree.

I don't believe folks who have attended GOL courses think like this at all. Like Logbutcher said, GOL isn't really promoting a single way to fell trees, and I believe folks who have attened GOL courses don't think this way after they have completed the course. My GOL instructor even stressed this.

I have some questions though...

- How can you work on one side of a tree, burning or otherwise, if the diameter is larger than the length of your bar? (I think I read that somewhere in this post)
- How can you fell a tree (aka not a sapling, bigger than your thigh) without cutting any type of notch? Without creating a hinge?
- What type of special techniques are employed with wedges for burning trees and how do you plan your cuts to allow the use of wedges?
- What defines a large tree? 48" DBH? 60" DBH? 72" DBH? A tree that you require a 36" bar on and still have to cut from both sides?
- When you have a tree that defines a large tree, what is the cutting plan? How does this plan allow, or not allow for the use of wedges?
- At what point does a trees weight become more signigicant than dimensions? What is the plan instead? Hydraulic jack? (refering to the statement that a tree may be too heavy to actually lift with a wedge being pounded by an axe)
- How do you fell a tree with a diameter more than twice your bar length?
- What is the cutting plan for a tree that is so large, that spring boards are used around the stump base?

I am asking these questions because I am not sure of the answer and whould genuinely like to know.

Now, I don't understand why everyone is attacking eachothers methods. Isn't the point of the forum to share knowledge and different ideas?

 

[boatermark]

Hinge Length/Notch Depth

boatermark:
The second area of concern is that with larger timber, (same physics; just more of it), you don't want to limit your directional control by having a shallow face. The standard extreme example of this is felling a large diameter 'staub' that is straight up and down. If you have one of these in say a 4-5'+ diameter/20 foot high size. You'll learn pretty quickly to go with a notch half way in.

OK, everyone correct me if I am wrong, but the depth of the notch, regardless of angle, will create the hinge length. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but when scoring a stump, GOL recommends a minimum hinge length of 80% of the tree's DBH. Doesn't that mean your notch could be deeper, and the hinge length could be longer if the situation required it?

 

[smokechase II]

some more stuff

boatermark:

The question about working on one side of the tree was about something I said. You can't do that with a short bar. So that would be a tree that either an alternative method of felling needs to be explored or leave it.

Small trees are often fell without a notch, thinning up to but not always including 5" dbh size range. This also is done with larger, but as you go up in size it is unsafe. The illustration I used was to explain why the open face as used out of Scandinavia was getting close to falling without a face, in the sense that it provides an inferior initial release. (It should be noted that open face advocates in the Eastern US have deviated from the motherland and are making faces consistently deeper. I think this was a predictable course related to the larger trees at lower latitudes and the strength of hardwoods.)

Using wedges with burning trees is essentially the same if you have solid wood to work with. Three exceptions come to mind:
1) You don't want to burn your plastic wedges,
2) Look up after every wedge strike when hazards above,
3) Do everything you can to move your felling cuts away from the heat.
The big question is wedging doable on hollow trees.

In the Forest Service certification process;
A) Up to 8" dbh, recertification require yearly by two certifiers.
B) 8" - 24" dbh, recertification require yearly by two certifiers.
C) Over 24" dbh, recertification require every two years by two certifiers.
It is understood that a tree under 8" can still be way more dangerous than a much larger one. Just that a line had to be drawn somewhere. Cert cards often include limitations within the A B or C levels, such as "B Faller and also limited to bar length Falling and bucking").

The felling plan is the same for the large timber as for small.
1) Is it necessary to drop this tree/snag?
2) What are the hazards? (Discussion with knowledgeable felling pard. Possibly peel bark and sound with an axe.)
3) Can the faller work on this tree/snag safely? Order of fall relating to other trees? Potential direction of fall?
4) By what methods? Should equipment or Pro/more experienced cutters be brought in?
5) Area secured, two tree lengths standard and more secured downhill,
6) Escape route and safe work area cleared. Possibly clear bed?
7) Then the falling drill. Wedges included.
There is no calculation method used on the West Coast for whether wedges will work or not work as with the segment system in GOL. Again, this relates to the segment system not factoring the weight to be lifted. Unfortunately, I know of no system that would work in heavier timber. Wedge capability is a handed down - on the job judgment skill.

{My experience has been that wedges are used far more in the Western areas than Eastern. Nature of the work environment. It you can't drive to the site with equipment, as is common because of terrain, you depend on wedging or jacking.}

 

[smokechase II]

hinge questions

The 80% figure means that on some trees it could result in a face that is 1/3rd in, others not.
Many trees are oblong. Sorry for how obvious that is. But since you asked I had to mention it.
{Remember; 1/3rd in is not a hard and fast rule}
On the West Coast the emphasis is generally a deeper face. Reason is to allow the cutter to get more trees over more directions with wedges. There are of course limits to this.

The point you make on GOL requiring a minimum is excellent.
If you're not felling a commercial product and you have the leeway to use whatever face you need. Consider a deeper face on a tree by tree basis.

 

[smokechase II]

back to the first set of questions

boatermark:
Regarding "- At what point does a trees weight become more significant than dimensions? What is the plan instead? Hydraulic jack? (referring to the statement that a tree may be too heavy to actually lift with a wedge being pounded by an axe)."

I don't now how to calculate that by any formula. Picture the variables with the dry versus green weight. (A dead and dried out snag can weigh only 1/2 as much as it did alive - and then its hinge wood is more brittle and so on.)

This is such a complex world of physics and variables. Sorry that I have to say this but individual skill and knowledge are still important.

A tree with up to three times the bar length can be fell by center face boring.
Provided that the face opening is very wide and deep. Wide to get the saw powerhead in, deep to get the bar further in. In some instances a block of wood for the powerhead can also be cut in the back-cut area to get even bigger trees. Caution on extensive center boring in weaker woods and heavy leaning trees, may get saw smashed.

I've only toyed with springboards. Not qualified to respond.
However, it would seem obvious that safety and escape are limited severely.
You would not want to put a springboard notch below hinge wood. Probably a whole bunch of other items.

 

[boatermark]

Great Info!

Great info Smokechase II! Thanks!

Mentioning tree shape is a good point. I thought about adding in the fact that hardly any tree is really round, but I was getting lazy and didn't want to go even farther off on a tangent. Tree shape would certainly effect the cutting and felling plan.

The comment regarding the frequence of wedge use on the East coast...not sure. If they aren't used as frequent, maybe it's a result of folks not being shown how, or maybe it is a result of equipment being used in felling. I hunt in heavily logged areas in Maine and have been around a lot of different operations and it seems many of these are moving away from manual felling. Machines do everything.

 

[tek9tim]

Over and over, it is missed that I am giving the GOL program credit. It works.

I was simply sharing that we do things differently out west because of our differing situation, and that GOL doesn't fit for us.

It was said that GOL doesn't promote just one way to cut trees, but the biggest difference is the open face, and they make no mention of anything else in their curriculum. And maybe course instructors don't stick to the text.

And yes, it does work well in softwood. It's just not neccessary.

The way smokechase put it, it kinda sounds simple to be a C faller. The C cert is difficult, and more than how your stump looks, they are concerned whether you have good judgment, how safely you work, how you handle the saw, how you size up the tree, and how calm you are in tense situations. On the Wenatchee National Forest, for a C cert you need at least a Forest Service class C certifier and a professional logger that is also red-carded (fireline certified), and there are usually more than one of each. It's not easy, only people with a strong focus on running saw get it. Most fail their first try.

 

[smokechase II]

My way or the Highway

John:
"My way" exists everywhere.

Most logging operations in the Western US and Canada require essentially a square cut Humboldt. For the loggers out here. It's the mills way or the highway.

Most of the Forest Service is pretty reasonable. I believe it was in 2001 that manual direction came out officially allowing open face technique. It had been used informally in pockets for years before that in the Eastern US.

I've been to the Francis Marion NF, (South Carolina), several times and they encourage whatever you're most comfortable with. Glad to show you open face and discuss it. Very reasonable.

However, a friend that went to a Forest in Missouri told me that it is open face or no certification there. He has said that he is using open face with good success in the hardwoods there, but that he doesn't like being limited to it on every tree, especially bad would be having to use it on some snags or on fires.

Also, I have heard twice now that in recent years Douglas Dent is somewhat strongly encouraging more bore cutting on the back-cut. Not just for barber chair avoidance. He has always encouraged decently wide face cuts, although I don't believe he mandates 70 degree plus openings. More of the 45 to 50 degree notch on most conifers.

For me I've got it pretty good. I can do what I feel is safest on a tree by tree basis. I like showing buddies some of the very clever ways of using bore cuts to utilize long wedges on small diameter trees and so forth. Makes me feel smart.

 

[logbutcher]

Now We're Getting There

Great resumption of a needed subject: how to safely, and efficiently fell.
It's like the stupid debate on mil sidearms years ago (before your time :biggrinbounce2: ) : stick with the bulky 45 tradition (never could hit anything at 25 m ) , or go with lighter, accurate 9mm issued sidearm (now it's Beretta). It all comes down to user skill and experience.
Another full jacket disclosure: it's hard to trust bureaucrats making regs from offices. Do the Forest Service certification regs (those "sissies" Mr Smoke :hmm3grin2orange: ) MAKE SENSE in the real world of wildfire fighting and tree work ?
This is something I never thought about: wedges melting. Not a place I want to be in. Admiration for you guys.

 

[smokechase II]

intelligent government agency

Intelligent government agency. Can I be serious?

No and Yes and no.
Usually we need a few driving fatalities to fix an intersection.

Same with the FS.
In the late 70's a USFS employee is killed learning how to fall on the Siskiyou NF in SW Oregon. In 1978, another forest in Oregon had a manager with enough intelligence and foresight to set up a more formal training program with certification at different levels. This is what we have in place in most areas now. It was based on Doug Dent's book and films.
However, this was just on that one forest.
It took a FS employee dropping a tree on a pick-up in SW Washington, killing the mill worker driver and injuring his wife, picture how that was for all involved, to get that program to go region wide in the early 1980's.
Generally fueled by more fatalities it has continued to spread.

It is not consistent nationwide for the Forest Service and BLM.

In Oregon and Washington, where the C Faller program started, we have to have a professional cutter from industry with a Forest Service employee that is a certifier jointly agree and they rate the applicant.
This is not always the case. In some regions they just use two FS employees.
Locally we consider that pro link invaluable.

The updating of the classes and overall the training in the NW part of the agency is fine. Just wish we had gotten it going sooner and that we were consistent nationwide.

(Trivia: The changes I'd recommend in the program would be A cutters recerted yearly, B cutters every two years and C Fallers every three. In the initial C level evaluation I'd require the cutters to demonstrate that they can do all their cuts from either side of the tree and also show proficiency with Humboldt, Conventional and Open Face techniques. I would not cert anyone that could not do all three and state a few advantages and disadvantages of each in the course of their tree size ups. But that is just me.}

With regard to falling on large fires. We mostly use local pro cutters. While most of these guys cut well, a lot better than we do, they can be hard to break in to our needs. There is a new group of these guys that is on a different level. They want more money. I like it because they are offering us more. They require more training for their group and have been very professional in all aspects of the job. However, there isn't a standard falling class that industry puts on.

We need industry to come up with an area wide standard by the guys who do this stuff:

 

[tawilson]

That is how you would use a wedge to do a bore cut. However, most people (at least around here) use a conventional cut. Make the notch, start your backcut, and as soon as there is open kerf behind the bar, insert wedge. Continue backcut until hinge is properly formed, and pound in wedge. When tree starts to fall, back up. Recover wedges, buck tree, repeat process until no trees remain.

I had to come back and chuckle over that one again, sorry.

 

[clearance]

If you are using wedges then it ain't a leaner that will chair. So, if you are boring it, you are placing the wedges closer to the holding wood than if you were falling it normally (undercut, backcut). Why do this instead and if you are pounding wedges close to the holding wood maybe it will lift the tree up and bust the holding wood? I always drive the wedges that are farthest away from the undercut to push the tree over instead of lifting it straight up. Maybe I am missing something here.

 

[smokechase II]

to get a precise hinge

Where the bore the back can be of benefit, besides barber chair avoidance, is to get your hinge exact before the tree starts to fall. This for trees that need little or no wedging.

Also, when cutting trees where a quick escape is needed, you are a little further away and in a better operational position to escape than when 'chasing' the back-cut.

Both of these advantages are dependant on the faller knowing the right sized hinge.

The placement of wedges next to the hinge needs to be just firm. To hold the tree, not drive it, until a spot in the rear can be cut to allow for driving wedges.

Look, I don't do this much either. Hope I got these ideas straight.

 

[FSburt]

Lots of good discussion in this thread. As a govt faller for 18 years and a C faller for 14 of those years I have learned that working on hazardous trees requires efficient techniques to get a tree down quickly and accurately. i am a firm believer in utilizing the methods that i have been shown by professional fallers througout the years to accomplish this job. The things i do fairly consistantly now vs when I was younger are
Put in deeper undercuts.
On large trees 60" plus dbh i only deal with half of the undercut at time meaning i rip the undercut in half so i can watch the tip of the bar while getting the rest of my cut out.
Learned how to lift back leaning trees up with wedges by setting them in 1st. this method is called bowties. I have lifted some pretty large trees up off roads with this cut. Biggest so far has been a 60" sugar pine that had heavy limb weight and backlean over a heavily traveled road. The thing I like the most about this cut is the fact that you can get a wedge started in the back and get it set good before starting your undercut this makes the job way easier instead of chasing a backcut with wedges and fighting extra backlean when the undercut is taken out 1st. When used correctly the tree will actually left up on its own from the wedge pressure being exerted on the backcut as the holding wood is being relieved on each side. Smokechaser II has some pics of me doing this cut on a fire in Oregon.
Learn how to run a saw efficiently meaning use the dogs whenever possible and keep the saw body working off your thigh as much as possible to keep the weight off your arms. Especially using the big saws Stihl 088, 076 and Mac 125Sp.
Dont be afraid to challenge yourself once in while when you have a more experienced faller to help you out. This gives you that confidence that is so lacking in most fallers when they look at tree real quick and decide its too sketchy. most of the time it can be cut it just they lack the confidence in thier abilities. I say this because i ran a TSI crew for 15 seasons and had to bring new cutters up to a productive level through the season and its amazing how the little things make this job so much easier and safer.

 

[FSburt]

Lots of good discussion in this thread. As a govt faller for 18 years and a C faller for 14 of those years I have learned that working on hazardous trees requires efficient techniques to get a tree down quickly and accurately. i am a firm believer in utilizing the methods that i have been shown by professional fallers througout the years to accomplish this job. The things i do fairly consistantly now vs when I was younger are
Put in deeper undercuts.
On large trees 60" plus dbh i only deal with half of the undercut at time meaning i rip the undercut in half so i can watch the tip of the bar while getting the rest of my cut out.
Learned how to lift back leaning trees up with wedges by setting them in 1st. this method is called bowties. I have lifted some pretty large trees up off roads with this cut. Biggest so far has been a 60" sugar pine that had heavy limb weight and backlean over a heavily traveled road. The thing I like the most about this cut is the fact that you can get a wedge started in the back and get it set good before starting your undercut this makes the job way easier instead of chasing a backcut with wedges and fighting extra backlean when the undercut is taken out 1st. When used correctly the tree will actually left up on its own from the wedge pressure being exerted on the backcut as the holding wood is being relieved on each side. Smokechaser II has some pics of me doing this cut on a fire in Oregon.
Learn how to run a saw efficiently meaning use the dogs whenever possible and keep the saw body working off your thigh as much as possible to keep the weight off your arms. Especially using the big saws Stihl 088, 076 and Mac 125Sp.
Dont be afraid to challenge yourself once in while when you have a more experienced faller to help you out. This gives you that confidence that is so lacking in most fallers when they look at tree real quick and decide its too sketchy. most of the time it can be cut it just they lack the confidence in thier abilities. I say this because i ran a TSI crew for 15 seasons and had to bring new cutters up to a productive level through the season and its amazing how the little things make this job so much easier and safer.

 

[smokechase II]

FS Burt

Burt is famous for repeating himself.
He showed me this bow tie cut two summers ago and I was impressed.
Two ways:
Burt is the best FS cutter I've ever seen, (not a logger but very good)
This might be a handy cut for all to consider.

Key points in this thread that was originally for "How to properly use wedges."

The bow tie is a very clever back cut before the face cut. Establish wedges prior to any set back and actually get them lifting ever so slightly. I believe this technique allows strong leaners to be redirected by wedges better than any other.

I converted some powerpoint slides to JPEGs below to show how a bow tie is cut.