Huztl / Farmertec ms 440

[David.M]

Which part would you have cut? the clutch drum or the oil output tube? I used a hammer and a 3/8" socket extension as a "punch" to hit the tube in the right area to bend it lower so it wouldn't contact the clutch drum. This seemed to work well for me.

 

[Bedford T]

Which part would you have cut? the clutch drum or the oil output tube? I used a hammer and a 3/8" socket extension as a "punch" to hit the tube in the right area to bend it lower so it wouldn't contact the clutch drum. This seemed to work well for me.

What I meant.
My clutch drum cut the arm nearly in half and if you had not checked yours, yours would have too. I thought mine was right. Must have been some settlement. Your Looks great.

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[David.M]

Ok, gotchya. I thought you said "I would have cut it." not "It would have cut it." That's why I asked what you would have cut? I understand now.

So this morning I checked compression again with the .014" base gasket. Was reading about 85psi. I took it apart and removed the base gasket, cleaned up the surface, applied some 1184, and reinstalled the cylinder without a base gasket. Then did a compression test again......solid 90-92 psi.

So by removing the .014" base gasket I gained 5-7 psi.

I checked squish after removing the base gasket, it's .043".

Doing some math, if I have the cylinder decked down .020" to get the squish down to around .023", I would expect my compression to increase about 10 psi, which would put me at about 100psi compression.

I think i'm going to order a big bore piston/cylinder. Maybe my kit just had a bad piston/cylinder?

I should be expecting 150-180psi compression right?

 

[Bedford T]

Ok, gotchya. I thought you said "I would have cut it." not "It would have cut it." That's why I asked what you would have cut? I understand now.

So this morning I checked compression again with the .014" base gasket. Was reading about 85psi. I took it apart and removed the base gasket, cleaned up the surface, applied some 1184, and reinstalled the cylinder without a base gasket. Then did a compression test again......solid 90-92 psi.

So by removing the .014" base gasket I gained 5-7 psi.

I checked squish after removing the base gasket, it's .043".

Doing some math, if I have the cylinder decked down .020" to get the squish down to around .023", I would expect my compression to increase about 10 psi, which would put me at about 100psi compression.

I think i'm going to order a big bore piston/cylinder. Maybe my kit just had a bad piston/cylinder?

I should be expecting 150-180psi compression right?

Have you done a pressure test on it to see if it's tight for the best idea of what your compression is?

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[David.M]

As in use an air nozzle to pressurize it and see how much it holds? and how fast it leaks down? No, I haven't done that and don't think I have tools to adequately check that. I have a little air compressor that goes to 100psi.

I compression checked my Jonsered 670 for a comparison. It's currently my primary saw, with a 28" bar. It measured 120psi.

 

[Bedford T]

As in use an air nozzle to pressurize it and see how much it holds? and how fast it leaks down? No, I haven't done that and don't think I have tools to adequately check that. I have a little air compressor that goes to 100psi.

I compression checked my Jonsered 670 for a comparison. It's currently my primary saw, with a 28" bar. It measured 120psi.

Sir, I hate to tell you this and I will try very hard to be respectful. But you need to get educated before you screw your new saw up. I have videos others have videos. The manual has instructions. This is not a model car you are putting together with glue. My sense in your case you have a 90% chance of failure if you try this without paying attention to the details.

The short version is buy a mity vac or something like it and then watch it done, then do it on your saw.

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[Bedford T]

Depending on. Your location I would offer to do it for you if you would rather get it done and spend later on the tools. I am sure others would help as well. Shipping would likely be 35$x2 and I will make you a video and we could do it live. Speak up if you have questions

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[David.M]

Thanks for the offer. My dad has a vacuum tester, not sure if it's mityvac or similar. I will try to get my hands on that sometime this week and do a vacuum check. Also, after reading some other sources on chainsaw compression testing, I'm beginning to question my compression tester.

 

[David.M]

Still haven't had a chance to vacuum test.

Regarding compression.... I am not trusting the readings on my cheap compression tester kit. And I don't want to spend $75 for a good short-hose chainsaw compression tester at the moment.
So I put the decomp plug and spark plug in the ms440 kit saw and pulled the starter rope to get a feel for how much compression it had. Then for comparison, I pulled the starter rope a few times on two Jonsered 670's and a Stihl 024 that all run well. The MS440 pulled harder than the 024 and one of the 670's. I also expect compression to increase a bit on the ms440 after it has been used and broken in. At this point I'm satisfied with the amount of compression it has. If I have trouble later, I may upgrade to a Hyway cylinder and meteor piston as others have done.

For the reflective heat tape under the muffler, I didn't have any heat tape, so I used aluminum foil, with some 1184 underneath as the adhesive. Will see how it holds up. I have used aluminum foil as a heat reflector around a wood stove before with impressive results.

I'm just waiting on a new oil pump to arrive now. A few days ago I was fiddling with the oil pump and I broke it near the upper bolt. =( It appears that the pump was caught up on something and I over-tightened the bolt and broke a chunk of the support material off around the bolt. When the new one arrives I'm going to do some more thorough fit-up before I torque it down. It appeared that the oil pump was seated down all the way, but there was still an air gap between the oil pump and the crank case where the bolts go through, so when I tightened the bolts it flexed the oil pump too much and broke the support material off of it.

 

[Ozhoo]

It appeared that the oil pump was seated down all the way, but there was still an air gap between the oil pump and the crank case where the bolts go through, so when I tightened the bolts it flexed the oil pump too much and broke the support material off of it.

This comes back to not using the oil pump as a stop for the case bearing. Your case bearing is sticking out to far and your oil pump bottoms on it before the mounting tabs touch the case.

At least you're learning. The great thing about these kits is that you can afford to make a few mistakes.

 

[David.M]

Yes, I am learning.

When I removed the oil pump and looked at it last night it was not evident to me that the bearing was sticking out too far, but what you are saying makes sense. I'll try to take a closer look at it tonight.

 

[David.M]

Sure enough, the case bearing is sticking out too far and that is what caused the oil pump to break when I tightened the bolts for it. I think I can leave it how it is though without detrimental effect.

First photo shows the bearing sticking out of the case. The distance from the bottom of the groove around the bearing, to the top of the outer bearing surface, is about 0.135". The corresponding measurement on the bottom of the oil pump is about 0.075". So the bearing is sticking out 0.060" too far.

The second photo shows the oil pump and the oiler drive gear on the pto shaft. Note that the oiler drive gear piece sits just BELOW the top of the bushing on the pto shaft.

The third photo shows the washer/backing plate for the clutch drive assembly sitting on the pto shaft. This plate seats on the top of the bushing, and the clutch drive assemble bolts snug against it.

When I put the new oil pump on, I will put a ~0.060" thick washer between the oil pump and crank case on each of the bolts. Although the oil pump will be raised 0.060", it won't have any detrimental effect on operation as far as I can tell.

I expect the new oil pump to arrive today or tomorrow. After that's installed I will fire up the saw =)

 

[David.M]

Fully assembled. Didn't get a chance to fire it up yet. Will do that after work today.

For the oiler, due to geometry, I wasn't able to put washers between the oil pump and the crank case. So I just put lots of locktite on the screws and tightened them until snug, leaving a small air gap between the oil pump and the crank case. I made sure the alignment was correct and everything spun freely as it should.

 

[David.M]

Got it fired up and ran about a tank of fuel through it this weekend =) Had a couple issues getting it started.

Pulled it about 5 times with full choke until it first popped. Turned up one click on the choke selector and pulled about 10 times, nothing. Pulled the air filter, and saw that the choke butterfly piece was jammed shut (full choke). So i used a screwdriver to free it up. 3 more pulls, and the pull cord ripped. 10 minutes to replace the pull cord (luckily i had some on hand and I have changed a lot of pull cords before, so it went pretty quick).

Also, about every 3rd pull the clutch would engage the chain as i was pulling.....made it tougher to pull. Chain had some resistance and didnt' spin as freely as i would have liked when I first assembled everything. Mostly i think due to the clutch drum being slightly out of round.

For several more pulls, i would get the saw to pop and fire about 5 times and then die. So i started messing with the carb as i went. Adjust, pull 3 or 4 times, adjust, etc.

Finally got it fired up and running =) Once it was actually running I was able to keep it running and make adjustments to the carb while it was running, which made the adjustments go quicker. I got it adjusted so it would idle well and was good on the top end. Had a bit of a lag though while accelerating from idle to WOT. Made a few test cuts, after running it for about 10 minutes, the chain spun very freely and the clutch no longer tries to engage while pull starting it.

Today I made about 2 dozen cuts with it in ~18" doug fir. It rips great through the wood at WOT, but i'm having trouble getting it to idle and accelerate. If i keep the rpm's up it does great, but the low end is acting funny. I think it's the carb. Debating whether to buy another $15 carb, or buy an OEM carb kit, or just keep fiddling with this one for now.

Saw won't start unless the low end carb screw is 2.5+ turns out. Best luck i had was the low end screw about 3 or 4 full turns out, and the idle speed screw in ALL the way. Not ideal settings in my opinion.

So far I'm $410 into the saw, that's kit, $75 oregon bar and chain, and a couple spare parts. I'm happy with the purchase. Just need to get the carb figured out.

 

[Ozhoo]

Endeavor to persevere

With the low side that far out (even on a chinesium carb) I'd suspect and air leak.

 

[David.M]

Video of a couple cuts.

 

[David.M]

Update:

I got a Mityvac 8500. The 440 has sat in my basement for about 2 weeks with ~1/2 tank of fuel in it. It leaked fuel out onto the floor, it was coming from the carb.

I did a pressure/vacuum test via removing the muffler and plugging the exhaust port on the cylinder, and removed the carb and used a block of wood, a piece of rubber, and carb nuts to plug the intake at the carb end of the carb/cylinder boot. I then hooked up the mityvac to the impulse line for vacuum/pressure test. It held both 10psi pressure and 10"hg vacuum for over 20 seconds with less than 1psi/"hg drop on each. So the case is air tight.

I did a pressure/vacuum test on the fuel tank (fuel tank vent) via mityvac through the carb end of the fuel line. It held 10psi/10"hg solid for 20+ seconds. I didn't go any further because I don't know how much pressure the fuel tank can take and didn't want to damage it. Fuel tank vent (that was supplied with the huztl kit) needs replaced. I did the same test with the ms660 kit using the supplied huztl vent, and it built up less than 1 psi/"hg.

When I removed muffler, there was a lot of black oily residue under the muffler on the chain side of the saw. (I ran about 1/2 tank of fuel through the saw) Order of installation is: Cylinder-metal heat shield plate-exhaust gasket-muffler. There is no gasket between the cylinder and the heat shield plate, and this appears to be where the leak is coming from. I'm thinking I will just order an additional muffler gasket and put it between the cylinder and heat shield plate to seal it up.

Lastly, the piston was very wet when I took things apart. I'm not sure if the carb was running too rich (though it seemed to show signs of running lean), or if this is just a result of the gas tank pressurizing and blowing gas through everything while it sat.

 

[Bedford T]

Update:

I got a Mityvac 8500. The 440 has sat in my basement for about 2 weeks with ~1/2 tank of fuel in it. It leaked fuel out onto the floor, it was coming from the carb.

I did a pressure/vacuum test via removing the muffler and plugging the exhaust port on the cylinder, and removed the carb and used a block of wood, a piece of rubber, and carb nuts to plug the intake at the carb end of the carb/cylinder boot. I then hooked up the mityvac to the impulse line for vacuum/pressure test. It held both 10psi pressure and 10"hg vacuum for over 20 seconds with less than 1psi/"hg drop on each. So the case is air tight.

I did a pressure/vacuum test on the fuel tank (fuel tank vent) via mityvac through the carb end of the fuel line. It held 10psi/10"hg solid for 20+ seconds. I didn't go any further because I don't know how much pressure the fuel tank can take and didn't want to damage it. Fuel tank vent (that was supplied with the huztl kit) needs replaced. I did the same test with the ms660 kit using the supplied huztl vent, and it built up less than 1 psi/"hg.

When I removed muffler, there was a lot of black oily residue under the muffler on the chain side of the saw. (I ran about 1/2 tank of fuel through the saw) Order of installation is: Cylinder-metal heat shield plate-exhaust gasket-muffler. There is no gasket between the cylinder and the heat shield plate, and this appears to be where the leak is coming from. I'm thinking I will just order an additional muffler gasket and put it between the cylinder and heat shield plate to seal it up.

Lastly, the piston was very wet when I took things apart. I'm not sure if the carb was running too rich (though it seemed to show signs of running lean), or if this is just a result of the gas tank pressurizing and blowing gas through everything while it sat.

There are a few confusing things in your post so i will just go over some of the points and see if i cover it for you. the case pressure test should hold for 20 seconds, period. hold still for 20 seconds. the vacuum should not hold still, it should drop completely and steadily. you take the flywheel, for example and rotate it slightly while testing to see if the oil seals are holding.

now on the wet around the muffler. if you tuned it and you don't say you did it will get all black and nasty, thats her love juice and you know all is well just wipe it up and move on. if you did not know it was there then it likely would have hung out and still been wet. its a product of tuning the saw, does not happen when you run it. as you can david get the right parts to pressure test your saw. you can make the compression tester the very last tool you ever buy. the pull on the cord test is good enough for most testing. the pressure/vac test is used in trouble shooting though out the life of your saw.

if you see an opportunity get you a piece of header tape/wrap and replace that foil. you can use dirko to hold it down.

the fuel circuit is a separate animal. to day we have a new test to throw at you. you must test the impulse heartbeat as well. i have had way to much trouble with this and kit saws so i will add this to my steps. after you get it all buttoned up put the same fitting you tested the fuel line with into the impulse and turn the flywheel slightly you should should a heartbeat on the dial from that movement. then the pressure should hold and not move and the vacuum should fall, its usually very rapid on a fuel tank because the space is small.

one last thing, i think you have the wrong bolts in your cylinder. its been a little while but i think they are dark, when i am near the saw i will look. The ones you have are silver and farmertec has silver 5mx20mm and you need 5mx25mm. replace them and retest. i encourage you to replace them.

ok, if i missed somethng let me know

 

[David.M]

I did not rotate the flywheel/engine while testing pressure or vacuum. I may re-test and try that.

On the muffler....the residue did not come from the muffler exit ports, it was coming from between the cylinder and the heat shield plate. That indicates an exhaust leak where there should not be one right? I'm not concerned much about the presence of the residue, but rather where it was coming from.

Cylinder bolts: I didn't measure the length of them when I put them in, but I'm certain I didn't just mix them up with other bolts somewhere else on the saw. They are the bolts that came with the farmertec kit that are intended for use on the cylinder. Are you saying your kit came with black bolts instead? Or that farmertec sent incorrect cylinder bolts with the kit?

 

[Bedford T]

I did not rotate the flywheel/engine while testing pressure or vacuum. I may re-test and try that.

On the muffler....the residue did not come from the muffler exit ports, it was coming from between the cylinder and the heat shield plate. That indicates an exhaust leak where there should not be one right? I'm not concerned much about the presence of the residue, but rather where it was coming from.

Cylinder bolts: I didn't measure the length of them when I put them in, but I'm certain I didn't just mix them up with other bolts somewhere else on the saw. They are the bolts that came with the farmertec kit that are intended for use on the cylinder. Are you saying your kit came with black bolts instead? Or that farmertec sent incorrect cylinder bolts with the kit?

David I don't think I am the guy to help you. You seem to be hard headed and unwilling to follow best practices. I will let others help you and save me the frustration. Bet you never bothered with a manual. You seem to think of this as a Lego set.

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