Is this tree going to live?

[Nick Kent]

I think this is a choke cherry. At least that is what I've always called it. Wondering what you guys think about this tree? Is it going to live, or is it dying? We are putting in a privacy fence and going around the tree, but if it only has a couple of years to live anyway it might be worth cutting down now. My wife likes the tree, so she would like to keep it. I kind of like it too, except for all the berries it drops in the summer. Thanks, Nick.

I dug out the hole a bit, and that seems to be the extent of any really soft powdery rot.

 

[Fallen Angel]

concerning you tree life expectancy

Without being able to take a closer look @ your tree I would say it should have a few more years of life...although there is a serious cavity where what looks life a major lead was cut. I would recommend seeing if there is any water standing in the hole. If there is I would recommend using a 1/4-1/2in. drill bit and drill a hole under the cavity about 6" to 9" to drain the water. You can buy a can of sray insulating foam to fill the cavity and drill hole...after foam expands and hardens cut excess foam away. There could also be a vitamin deficency that could cause problem as well. Check out a product called Med-caps. These are capsules that are drilled directly through the bark into the cambium layer and supply vitamins and iron directly into the sap flow....takes about 8 to 12 weeks to start to see improvements.
Some pepole recommend spraying the trees, but I have seen better results w/ the Med-caps. They also have fertilizer Med-caps that might help w/ the improvement of the tree. Hope this helps. Any questions feel free to contact me. Fallen Angel / Steve.

 

[Nick Kent]

Not sure about standing water. There was no water in it this morning and we just had a good noreaster blow through yesterday. I could drill a drain hole no problem. I think that the limb probably broke off, and then maybe it was cut clean. I have no idea though. I get the foam idea, but when that foam weathers it looks really bad.

 

[BostonBull]

I wouldnt fill the hole with anything. It looks like it is doing ok for the area. That driveway isnt helping the tree, it is compacting the soil in the drip line. Is there a well on the front side of it? Tough to tell from the pictures. From the pics maybe a light pruning, and a deep root fert. But again there may be something we are missing in the pictures. How close will the fence be to the tree?

Maybe some pics of the base of the tree?

 

[Fallen Angel]

There are several trains of thought on filling cavities w/ foam...and yes; it doesn't look too great after a while, but that can be covered up w/ a technique called Bark Tracing. This procedure will put a protective layer over the wound and stop any further damage. There can still be further damage done on the inside that may continue to get worse over the years but covering the hole will slow this down dramatically. If it were my tree I would do something to stop further damage to the heartwood. Continued exposure to the elements will eventually kill the tree. With the wound open, the tree can and will most likely continue to rot from the inside out. Deep root injection is another option...didn't think of that before. A de-deadwooding and light prunning would also help, this should be done while the sapflow is down so that the wounds can heal before the sapflow begins next spring.
This is just my opinion and advise to your question.

 

[BostonBull]

Wasnt trying to get down on you.....just this is the homeowner helper forum, and I feel we should give conservative advice. I agree that SOME cavities MAY benefit from foam filling but VERY limited. You tell a typical homeowner that it is OK to do and next thing you know every tree on their property has foam in it.

 

[Fallen Angel]

No offense taken. New to the site and just an want to share knowledge as well as learn from those w/ more exp. than myself. 16yrs. and still learning...the day I say I know it all is the day I'm in trouble. You are right though...not every hole in a tree should be filled. Some pics of the trees base would help w/ a better diagnosis though. I do believe that the hole should at least be covered in some way to help slow further decay. I know of a website that has the compound for bark tracing; but not sure if I can put it in this message on this site.
:jester:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

There are several trains of thought on filling cavities w/ foam...and yes; it doesn't look too great after a while, but that can be covered up w/ a technique called Bark Tracing.
This procedure will put a protective layer over the wound and stop any further damage. There can still be further damage done on the inside that may continue to get worse over the years but covering the hole will slow this down dramatically.

People want to help a tree along after an injury, and in the past used paints to cover wounds and concrete to fill holes, but studies have shown these methods ineffectual and even harmful in some cases.

If you read some of Alex Shigo's stuff, he talks about how standing water isn't a problem for trees.

Bark tracing is a technique of removing bark that has pulled apart from the tree at the cambium layer, with a sharp tool. Because this injury is so old, any loose bark has long since dropped off on it's own.
The modern alternative to bark tracing is to either leave it alone, or try to push and hold the loose bark back against the xylem using staples or some type of elastic. Again, there is no loose bark here.

If it were my tree I would do something to stop further damage to the heartwood. Continued exposure to the elements will eventually kill the tree. With the wound open, the tree can and will most likely continue to rot from the inside out.

The tree sets up barriers to stop decay at the time of the injury. With a cut this big, the decay will eventually work it's way into the center of the tree, and if it lives long enough the tree will hollow, no foam or paint will slow that process.

If you read up on CODIT, you will know this tree has some strong walls set up internally around an area about the size of the wound. These walls are chemical and physical walls that should hold decay from spreading outward. If the tree continues to grow, it should outpace the decay, and remain strong.

Deep root injection is another option...didn't think of that before. A de-deadwooding and light prunning would also help, this should be done while the sapflow is down so that the wounds can heal before the sapflow begins next spring.
This is just my opinion and advise to your question.

Deep root fertilizing is another questionable practice. Tree roots are mostly in the top 12" of the soil, liquids move mostly down because of gravity, if the product is applied 8 or 10" deep, most of it will just flow down below the roots to contaminate the ground water. Surface applications are best, they start at the top and flow down, affecting 100% of the root area.
When I hear about deep root fertilizing, I usually think it's good because a stressed tree does not want fertilizer, it takes huge amounts of energy for a tree to metabolize it, which is bad, but because it's mostly going below the roots, who cares?

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

Just enjoy the tree til it goes. Many have hollow spots & still survive nicely. They provide shade & do their part, eliminating CO2 & providing us O2 . Besides your wife likes the tree . Good luck.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Wow..I guess I'm a little out of date here. Thanks for the information and advise. I will check out shigos' stuff and see what I can learn. Would Med- caps help w/ this tree? I've used them for years and found them perty effective when dealing with vitamin definciencies and inscects, as well as treatment for lack of iron. I've read a lot of information from the I.S.A/TCIA and NSA but not familiar w/ much of CODIT. How could I get ahold of some Lit. to freshen up on my knowledge so that I can give better advise and proper treatment for my clients Tree Care needs. Tree care is my passion..not just a career. Thanks... Sorry if I've given poor advise. After hearing some of the different replies to this thread I would just prune the tree and enjoy it while it lasts....Good Luck.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This site is popular:http://www.treedictionary.com/

It has some links to some Shigo stuff and tons of good information, including CODIT.

Another site that hits home is this one:http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/misc/treedecay/cover.htm
Be sure to click through the links!


If you like scientific studies, the JOA is good reading, although it can get pretty technical at times. Here's an article on wound treatments, to give you a taste:http://www.treelink.org/joa/1999/may/01dujesiefken.pdf

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I personally don't like medicaps. You just shouldn't drill into a tree unless absolutely necessary. Most of the applications are quick fixes that don't last, then you need to reapply. After repeated treatments, you can have a girdling effect.
When you inject concentrated chemicals into a tree, and they have to be quite strong solutions because such a small amount is used, you tend to have phytotoxicity. This enlarges the area damaged by the bore hole, and on the lower part of a trunk is a bad spot for extensive decay.

It often better to do your treatments to the soil. Rather than some quick fix injection, you can make meaningful, long term soil changes by adding compost and mulch, by soil injecting insecticides, surface applications of sulfur or lime for pH, or whatever..

If you need to inject, a macro injection into the root flare might be a better choice, you'll get better distribution of the chemicals, less phytotoxicity because it's a diluted mix, and better wound closure.

 

[Ed Roland]

Deep root fertilizing is another questionable practice. Tree roots are mostly in the top 12" of the soil, liquids move mostly down because of gravity, if the product is applied 8 or 10" deep, most of it will just flow down below the roots to contaminate the ground water. Surface applications are best, they start at the top and flow down, affecting 100% of the root area.
When I hear about deep root fertilizing, I usually think it's good because a stressed tree does not want fertilizer, it takes huge amounts of energy for a tree to metabolize it, which is bad, but because it's mostly going below the roots, who cares?

I like to obtain a soil sample for analysis before any fertilizer is used. Soil tests are not perfect but they are better than guessing. Recognizing chlorosis and the plant parts its found in can help.

If the tree needs supplemental elements add those by deep root fertilization. Inject the fertilization below the competing turf plants directly to the feeder roots of the tree in a grid pattern from the drip line to the trunk. Deep root fertilization helps keep phosphorus runoff out of our lakes and streams. Remember phosphorus is reletively immobile once bound in the soil.

for more info check out
http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/environment/BD288.html

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If the tree needs supplemental elements add those by deep root fertilization. Inject the fertilization below the competing turf plants directly to the feeder roots of the tree in a grid pattern from the drip line to the trunk. Deep root fertilization helps keep phosphorus runoff out of our lakes and streams. Remember phosphorus is reletively immobile once bound in the soil.

for more info check out
http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/environment/BD288.html

I strongly disagree with your assessment.
When grass is growing in a tree's root zone, the two plants share the exact same soil.
You may be thinking grass roots grow from the surface to 3" down, and then tree roots grow from 3" down to 6'. That is just not how it works!

Most tree roots grow up! The main root grows outward, and at each fork the root tip takes the path of least resistance. If that path leads to soils that are low in oxygen, fertility, or water, it grows slowly or not at all. Those roots that hit soils with good growing conditions thrive.
Oxygen levels at the surface are the highest, and depending on the type of soil you have, after about a foot of depth, the O2 is just too low to support vigorous growth.
Because of drying cycles at the surface, those main roots tend to be down a few inches and then send up smaller roots toward the surface.
Almost all the fine feeder roots are very close to the surface. Interestingly, some grow up to, and even through the surface, only to do their thing and die back, all in one day.
Where are the grass roots? Unlike tree roots, grass roots mostly grow down! They too will grow toward favorable conditions, but are a bit more aggressive than tree roots. If you think for one minute that you can fertilize grass without fertilizing the tree, or the other way around, you have another think coming.

If you read your link, it is not the liquid fertilizer that is running into the lake, it's the erroded soil, plant parts, leaves and what not. Where you get liquid phosphorus into the lake water, is pumping it below the soil, into the loose gravel sub soil where it can't chemically bind.

Go to construction sites and study soil profiles, you'll see.

 

[Ed Roland]

If you read your link, it is not the liquid fertilizer that is running into the lake, it's the erroded soil, plant parts, leaves and what not. Where you get liquid phosphorus into the lake water, is pumping it below the soil, into the loose gravel sub soil where it can't chemically bind.

Go to construction sites and study soil profiles, you'll see.

"Research shows that with proper application, fertilizer is not a significant pollution source. When phosphate fertilizer is applied to soil it is bound tightly and resistant to movement in the soil. However, some runoff may occur."
From my link

Do you suppose applying phosphorous fertilizer topically in a residential setting will have the propensity for run off into the street before it can bind to the soil particles or do you suppose it more likely the injected fert will decompose the soil and then find its way into the water table?
Perhaps we will let the good folks veiwing this thread decide.

http://www.mepartnership.org/sites/WHATSINOURWATER/sub_whatsnew.asp?new_id=629
"In an effort to protect our lakes, streams and rivers from harmful phosphorus run-off, Minnesota enacted a law restricting the use of phosphorus-containing fertilizers on lawns."

http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/soils/g09181.htm
"There is little potential for phosphorus to leach through soil into groundwater. Soil particles have a large capacity to fix phosphorus in forms that are immobile in soil."

I could do this all night.

And, of course, tree roots and turf plants share the same space within the soil, but only that portion in which the turf roots thrive. Tree roots can thrive a little lower that turf roots. This is highly dependant upon soil conditions. It is the better practice to inject fertilizer into the trees rhizosphere, mostly below competing turf plants, that to throw the fert on the soil surface.

 

[cantcutter]

I don't know what these guys are all talking about.....some of the post are too long for me to read through.

So here is the short and sweet. It could live along time, but I bet the minute you get a nice new fence up near it an icestorm comes through and knocks it down onto the fence. Take it out before the fence goes up and save yourself some money. The money saved will buy you a new tree to plant wherever you want.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Personally I feel deep toot fertilizing is best, it gets the harmful fertilizers, many companies use, down below the tree roots. I recommend you keep pumping it down there.
I think it's pretty funny you think your hitting just the deep tree roots.

And you are right about lawn fertilizers being a problem. It is often broadcast spread over sidewalks and streets, ending up in the storm water. The slow release, solid fertilizers, are probably worst.
Our area doesn't have a deficiency of phosphorous, so we wouldn't be adding it to soil injections for trees.
It is interesting, we have some of the bans on lawn fertilizers here too, and there are two tactics to get around it. One is what most commercial lawn services are doing, just using no phosphorous urea nitrogen. The other is to use weed and feed lawn fertilizer because it technically becomes a pesticide and local ordinances can't cover pesticides.

This whole discussion brings something up. Do you apply deep tree fertilizer after the lawn service just fertilized the lawn under the tree? Surely the lawn gobbles up all the good stuff before it can get way down to the tree roots. Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[kevinj]

Hey Mike,

Were you thinking.....

" hmmmm..... I see an idea for a new avatar...hmmmm. "

 

[Ed Roland]

This whole discussion brings something up. Do you apply deep tree fertilizer after the lawn service just fertilized the lawn under the tree? Surely the lawn gobbles up all the good stuff before it can get way down to the tree roots. Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist.

We only add the periodic elements that the tree needs. A soil test helps in this regard.

If you doubt turf plants utilize the same elements as trees then you are seriously defunct in your science. Our clients are aware that allowing turf to grow all the way up to the buttress flare is a bad idea.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I don't doubt different plants roots utilize the same elements, or occupy the same soil space. That's my point. You can't fertilize one without affecting the other.
Grass roots, like tree roots, grow where ever the oxygen, water, and fertility are best. If that's deep, they both grow deep, if that is near the surface, they both grow near the surface.
Why then is tree fertilizer soil injected with a spray rig? Because the process then becomes a specialty, that a homeowner can't do himself, not because it's best.