Is this tree going to live?

[treeseer]

Why then is tree fertilizer soil injected with a spray rig? Because the process then becomes a specialty, that a homeowner can't do himself, not because it's best.

Perhaps mike the forced delivery opens up pore space and has longterm aeration effects?

 

[Nick Kent]

So, I think I'll move the driveway away from the drip zone and keep my eye on the hole. I could really care less about the tree, just don't want it to bust up the fence. It didn't show any sign of dead branches or lack of leaves this summer.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Perhaps mike the forced delivery opens up pore space and has longterm aeration effects?

Actually the fluid being forced in, lifts and separates the soil along fault lines. The high pressure also compacts the soil. Think about adding a quart of liquid in one or two seconds, compaction definitely occurs.
Once soil gets compacted, its very hard to return it.
If you could somehow take out a core, then gently add the fertilizer, you might get some minor decompaction.

 

[Ed Roland]

I don't doubt different plants roots utilize the same elements, or occupy the same soil space. That's my point. You can't fertilize one without affecting the other.
Grass roots, like tree roots, grow where ever the oxygen, water, and fertility are best. If that's deep, they both grow deep, if that is near the surface, they both grow near the surface.
Why then is tree fertilizer soil injected with a spray rig? Because the process then becomes a specialty, that a homeowner can't do himself, not because it's best.

This is a quote from ANSI A300 Part 2 FERTILIZATION
"There are a number of fertilization methods such as a granular surface application, sub-surface dry application, and sub-surface liquid fertilizer injection. Generally, when a turf or ground cover is growing in the fertilization area, a sub-surface fertilization method is preferred."

opcorn:

 

[cantcutter]

So, I think I'll move the driveway away from the drip zone and keep my eye on the hole. I could really care less about the tree, just don't want it to bust up the fence. It didn't show any sign of dead branches or lack of leaves this summer.

Good luck with your tree.... I hope everything works out for you. Too bad these guys couldn't give you a straight answer without competeing over the best fertilization methods.

You might consider driving a steel rod into that cavity to see how deep the rot goes. I would venture a bet that it is pretty extensive.

 

[Nick Kent]

I don't mind the fertilization methods discussion. sounds like too much $$$ for me anyway. I will keep an eye on the tree and the pocket.

 

[treeseer]

I don't mind the fertilization methods discussion. sounds like too much $$$ for me anyway. I will keep an eye on the tree and the pocket.

If you don't want to pay anything for maintenance, don't act surprised when it fails.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This is a quote from ANSI A300 Part 2 FERTILIZATION
"There are a number of fertilization methods such as a granular surface application, sub-surface dry application, and sub-surface liquid fertilizer injection. Generally, when a turf or ground cover is growing in the fertilization area, a sub-surface fertilization method is preferred."

opcorn:

ANSI agrees with me, get that poison down below the roots!
I've done my share of deep root fertilizing, I've seen the results. I've injected into different soils and then dug up the injection site. I understand gravity. I know what happens when you squirt liquid into dry soils.
Deep fertilizing isn't going to go away. It's a cash cow. The spray rig is not available to the homeowner, so he can't do it himself. This allows the service to charge top dollar.

 

[Ed Roland]

The spray rig is not available to the homeowner, so he can't do it himself. This allows the service to charge top dollar.

This statement means you are not intirely comfortable charging the homeowner for your climbing skills or your bucket truck.

I hear your argument Maas, but lets look at these facts:

Phosphorus fertilizer will move more readily on the surface than below.

Sometimes trees need, after determination, supplemental elements.

These elements are not the "poison" you believe they are.

The learned folks who put together the ANSI standards, most likely, did not intend the 300 part 2 to be interpreted as 'one should inject the necessary elements bleow the fibrous roots.'

But, I hear your your argument and I know you, online, as an individual who can be trusted to provide good judgement. I believe removing a core and top-dressing has its place in the toolbox as well. In an effort to provide the best possible plant health care for my clients, i rely on the statements offered here by all you guys. I look into it all and its made my particular skill set stronger. Mike, i will seriously look into the injection method of fertilization with a, new, critical eye.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

In the past fertilizing meant pumping nitrogen down into the soil. The probems included "hot spots" of fertilizer, loss of product below soil, uneven distribution, and it just plain slow and boring.
As you know, the approach with nitrogen has changed, and the new optimal dose is about 1 or 2 pound per 1000 sq ft. That's about 1/2 a typical lawn fertilization. Hence the "poison" wisecrack. They are adding nitrogen to the tree that doesn't need or want it, in a manner that is inefficient. And any homeowner that is fertilizing his trees, is surely fertilizing his lawn.
Our soils here in SE WI don't lack phosphorus, so we don't deal with that, but I understand your runoff concern.
So if we shouldn't be adding nitrogen, how we going to make a living? The latest thing is to mix up a non-fertilizer concoction of fungi, bacteria, seaweed or whatever other useless things you can think of, claim its great, and pump away.

 

[treeseer]

The latest thing is to mix up a non-fertilizer concoction of fungi, bacteria, seaweed or whatever other useless things you can think of, claim its great, and pump away.

If these things are useLESS, what is useFUL? Besides air and water.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

To use a human analogy, I'm under my ideal weight by about 10 pounds, should I eat 2 pounds of butter a day until I gain it? That's how I see fertilizing.
I much prefer a more holistic approach. Try to duplicate a natural optimal growing condition. Plant in groups, excluded mowed lawn, include different levels of foliage from tall trees to ground covers, have enough topsoil to support the plants, don't remove plant litter, water during drought, and if you live in an area with specific elemental deficiency or pH problems, try to use slow release surface applications (unless run off is a problem). Although, if you have the other basic ingredients, soil deficiency or pH shouldn't be a problem.
When there just has to be lawn, running a core aerator around the root zone and raking around a high quality compost once a year works great.

 

[Themadd1]

Guys this should be discussed elsewhere... Homeowner forum isnt the best place to express your personal views on fert method.

Homeowner: You might try reducing the height/weight some but that is best left to professionals, roping, chainsaws in trees, etc. Unless you feel comfortable with that type of stuff. A good mulch under the tree will help you keep the tree healthy with minimal costs. 2-4" is good. Just keep the tree watered during drought and mulched you should see a few more years of the tree. Mose of the structure of this tree is balanced on the bark covered wood around this hole. It is true that decay can lead to the tree falling but you seem to have about 60% of the surrounding living tree and that should last a while. You might even see the hole get smaller as new layers of bark grow.

Good luck and if you get worried about the tree falling over you should contact a certified arborist to examine the tree. Usually free of charge with some pricing for different options.

 

[Fallen Angel]

I still think that Med-caps, mulch and light pruning would help...not to mention that way would be less expesive than root injection. Have a certified arborist run a ripto-graph to get a look at the inside of the tree and see what she looks like. Most of you guys probably know more than me when it comes to root injection but I've had plenty of success w/ the Med-caps. The holes are self-sealed and cambium layer and bark regrows in a year or so.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I still think that Med-caps, mulch and light pruning would help...not to mention that way would be less expesive than root injection. Have a certified arborist run a ripto-graph to get a look at the inside of the tree and see what she looks like. Most of you guys probably know more than me when it comes to root injection but I've had plenty of success w/ the Med-caps. The holes are self-sealed and cambium layer and bark regrows in a year or so.

One should avoid making trunk injuries at all cost.

Who ever the moron who came up with the using the word 'seal' instead of 'heal' should be sent out to the wood pile for a month straight. Nothing seals up, this isn't a zip lock bag. And even if new wood does grow over, that does not stop decay. If anything it's bad when it grows over, because you can't see the extent of the decay.

Story time. We had a customer with a declining Red Elm. We told her in was hazardous and should come down. Two weeks later it came down on its own, on top of the customer relaxing in a lawn chair. She was seriously injured.
Upon cutting the tree up, it was obvious what had happened. The tree had sustained several years of trunk injections to protect it from DED. The injection sites were all at about the same height and caused a girdling of decay pockets, weakening the trunk and stopping xylem functions.
Depending on what you are injecting and the health of the tree, you can get golf ball to baseball size pockets of decay. Now, imagine that all the way around the tree at the same height, and at varying depths.

The most cost effective and least injurious way to apply products is almost always a surface application.

If you absolutely need to do a trunk injection, get down into the lower trunk flare, below grade.

 

[Fallen Angel]

O.K.....Didn't realize this. That's just what I was taught years ago and never saw aything bad happen or any further signs of decay. I won't recommend them anymore if that's the way it is. Most of ya'll are certified Arborists..me, still working for certification. Thanks for the info.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Remember that you are injecting concentrated chemicals into those sites. They can be cytotoxic until the chemicals become diluted further up the tree.
Like lawn fertilizer, if you dump a pile on the grass, it will kill a spot, but in the areas you apply a small amount it greens it up. A similar thing happens when you inject concentrated chemicals into a tree, you can kill the cells around and above the injection sites.
Then, as you noticed, the tree compartmentalizes the wound and new wood grows over the injury. To the naked eye, everything looks good. You have no idea what's happening underneath.
You ever go to TreeDictionary.com ? If not, take a look under CODIT or wood decay, there's a lot of good stuff.

It's good to hear your going for certification, but remember, just because a guy is certified, doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. You could find Certified guys that think trunk injections are great. Do some more studying and come to your own conclusions, and keep learning. Aboriculture is an amazing field, you will never know it all.

 

[treeseer]

Mike did the elm break at the injections site?

O and I think trees do seal like a ziploc bag, and many if not most closed wounds do not conceal significant strength loss from decay.

As always, the smaller wound the better, pruning or injecting.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Yes, the trunk failed in the area of the injection sites. It is very unusual to see an Elm fail 4 or 5 feet off the ground. There was not a hollow but rather multiple areas of punky wood in a random pattern right around that height.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

...many if not most closed wounds do not conceal significant strength loss from decay.

As always, the smaller wound the better, pruning or injecting.

Why is that?
Here's my theory.
Statistically, before decay gets to the point where it causes trees to structurally fail, more than 2/3s of the wood needs to be decayed. One small injury is unlikely to cause that much decay.
Large injuries take a long time to cover over the wound. If it is quite large, it may not close in the life of the tree, and even be the cause of catastrophic failure.
Your observations that wounds that cover, don't cause failure, is not because they cover and decay stops, its because they are small and the area of CODIT is small.

There is not evidence, that I know of ,that would prove that if you had two equal wounds, on a tree, and one had wall 4 close over faster, or perhaps wall 4 held open somehow, that there would be statistically less decay in the wound that 'sealed'.

In fact, there is evidence of just the opposite. Consider Shigo, and his work with artificial pruning sealers. No statistical improvement.

Three things come to mind.
One, is the studies Shigo did with flush cuts. Remember how fast they closed over, but how much worse the decay was?
The second thing is, I wonder if there have been any studies on sugar maple taps? They make a small trunk injury and then keep it open for years, do you think there is a larger area of decay that can be attributed to the tap keeping wall 4 from closing?
Finally, do you recall the study where they wrapped wounds with Saran Wrap immediately after wounding to hold ethylene released by the tree close to the wound area, and got statistically better closure?
I wonder if the trees in this study could be dissected to see if there was any difference from the control, now years later.