Large Salt Cedar tree/stump removal project needs ideas.

[davidwyby]

Okay, I've mentioned this a little elsewhere, but here's the full scoop. I'll have some pix tomorrow, BTW.

Tearing out some large Salt Cedars. Two are between 2 and 3 feet in diameter, maybe 50' tall. Two are "clumps" of a few/couple trees about 18-24" coming out of a common stump, trunk, or whatever you'd call it. I've been tearing/cutting the limbs, etc. up to about 12" off with my truck and saw, and am down to the big trunks. I'm doing this for free/fun for some friends, and they don't have the cash to rent a 'hoe to dig 'em out. I have an old Ford 8N with a bucket on the front and a 3 point with a drag at my family's shop we use to maintain the parking lot. I'm going to build flip-up/down rake thingy to deal with the 12"-18" of thick, haylike needles on the ground. We found and old farm implement buring in all the needles, to give you and idea of the depth... Recommendations for getting them to burn and not just smolder? I'm going to try stacking them interspersed with branches for air, see how that works.

At any rate, my main problem are the big trees/roots. Salt Cedars are notoriously tough around here, and we're going to plant "good" trees in their place, so the stumps, roots all have to be ripped out. That's why I left the trunks, so that i have something to pull/push on. My dad cleared much of the clearing for our home/garage in WA by simply pulling the trees down with his Duece-and-a-half. Fun, fun! My current scheme is to make a single blade ripper for the 3 point and drive around the trees in circles ripping/finding roots. The bucket isn't very effective on the roots, but the ground seems to be light and soft/sandy. I read about one of the BIY backhoe trailers that it generates something like 4400 lbs of ripping force, which supposedly means it can rip a 2-3" oak root. So, what size/pattern/depth do salt cedars grow roots, and will my little old 8N be able to rip 'em out? Other ideas?

Thanks - David.

 

[treeseer]

If the soil is that sandy you may start world war 3. when you pull the roots out you may cause a sinkhole in Beijing.

 

[ajc4]

Sounds like a good way to bust up your tractor (best case) or hurt yourself on a pro-bono job. On a tree that big, I'd venture a guess that you'll need to rip down at least 3 feet to come even close to severing the rootball. (I am no expert in the growth depth/pattern of this or any species of tree. Just a guess from epmirical evidence of what I've seen when tress this size are buldozed or blown down) You'll need a 100 hp class tractor minimum, to pull a ripper tooth that deep even without any roots. A 3" diameter root 6" down will be plenty to stop that tractor in its tracks. Of course, in situations like that its always fun to dump the tractor clutch with a running start into it -- just to see how hard it bucks you into the steering wheel when the cast hosing on the rear end breaks in half. Even with the rootball severed, its still David vs Goliath with that little tractor vs that tree. Your father's old army truck has more than 10x the heft of an 8N, so your experience clearing a lot with that wont apply here.

I'd rent a big buldozer, or just cut the stumps to the ground and plant the new trees around them. I wouldnt think the old roots should have too much ill effect on the new trees. I'll leave it to some of the tree guys around here to shed some light on this though.

 

[davidwyby]

Begging your pardon, I'm not full idiot,only part...I intend to 8N it slow and steady if necessary, not break everything. Dig, clean, cut, dig, clean, cut. I'm fully aware that a duece is bigger and pulls harder than an 8N . Matter of fact, for pulling, I chain a few hundred pounts of steel plate in the back of my 4x4 Dodge Diesel. Pullys just a wee bit harder than the 8N

I guess you didn't notice the part where I said they don't have $ for renting a "real" machine...

The trees must be removed, not just felled...they don't play nice with other trees, and they will pop right back up. Yahoo! or Google it, pretty interesting problem here in the Southwest.

On one hand, I don't think the dirt will sink, on the other, it is rather soft. It's "blow dirt/sand" - what's piled up around the bushes/trees over the years from the wind blowing in off the desert.

Any pros care to chime in?

 

[ajc4]

Never ment to call you a full (or part) idiot. I was somewhat tounge-in-cheek about wreckless abandon with the tractor -- but even if your careful it is easy to break stuff. Tree roots are tough. Even with a very big machine. I have seen stumps removed like you describe -- sweep soil away with bucket, chop with axe, repeat. Never on anything this big though. Perhaps you could sacrefice an old saw chain or two to help with the root cutting.

Back to leaving the stumps though -- if you cut them as close as you can, and apply some herbicide to the stump afterwords (roundup & the like) wouldnt that prevent the re-growth? Application immediatley after cutting is most effective. Maybe apply a mist of herbicide to the stump once a week for a month or two for good measure. In a few months the root system should be dead and any autotoxicity this variety of tree may have should be out of the soil. If you wait a few months, plant the new trees in a hole that has been tilled wide, by the time the new roots reach the old roots beyond the tilled area, the old roots should surely be dead.

I suppose it couldnt hurt to try working at the roots as you describe -- perhaps a stump/herbicide plan could be a fallback if it doesnt work. Any roots you do manage to sever should speedup the killing of the old trees.

 

[underwor]

Salt cedar concentrates salt in the soil around it. It also sucks up humongous amounts of water, in the 100's of gallons per day area for a small shrub/tree. They are becoming a major invasive weed along the upper Missouri River. Even using things such as Tordon, it is recommended to dig root out if possible. A real nasty plant.

 

[techdave]

FING Tamarisk! Tordon helps.

Hi David, maybe you could look into how they do it at Anza Borrego Desert State Park (tm). They are getting some good results eradicating them from the area of Sentenac Cieniga and others. I am pretty sure they cut, then spray with Tordon, they repeat in some fashion.

The part I am not sure about is how well the method applies to such large trees as yours. You have my sympathies, I know the trees were kind of standard for desert shade many years ago but they are a PERNICIOUS CURSE upon wild California.

The worst part is, they cant just be eradicated willy-nilly as some species have adapted to their presence, so species composition of the area is all messed up from when natives where there.

There used to be a huge stump cluster out there off the curve on the highway on the way to Glamis, must have been 8 or 10 feet across.
That one reason I like Eucs better not so spready, plus better wood.

HTH Dave. ps maybe California Native plant society has info, or the group that is helping eradicate invasive non-native plants. Ca plant pest council??

 

[Stumper]

DavidB, How can I tell you that you aren't being wise without calling you an idiot? Many things are easily done with proper equipment and disasterous without it. The cost of grinding those stumps shouldn't be exorbidant. If there is no money for that then there isn't any to fix a busted little tractor or, worse, an injury. Cut them down and wait for $$.... Or do whatever you want-sometimes it works ,sometimes people get killed.

 

[TreesnHorses]

Okay, call me really wierd, but is there a reason you can't hire a tree guy with a stump grinder to come in and grind it up? It should be cheaper than renting a backhoe. At least it would be here in KY. Good luck with it and be careful.

 

[TreesnHorses]

Okay Stumper- we were posting at the same time and thinking the same thing ;-)

 

[ajc4]

The stump grinding is a good idea if you can find the budget for it.

A search for (stump herbicide) pulls up a few good threads. From what I''ve read there, the plan of attack I'd try is:

1) Apply herbicide (the other postings give some details of what, how, how much, where).
2) Wait a few weeks to let the herbicide soak into the roots
3) Cover the stump with some plastic and somthing opaque on top of that (dirt would work). No light = dead tree.

I can see how a tough tree might survive step #1. I can not see how any plant could survive step #3. Wait a year or so after the stump-cover treatment to make sure its good & dead. Then proceeed with the new trees. The old stumps shouldnt be too much of an eyesore if its in an area where the desert sands drift in. If you cut the stump as low as you can sooner or later the desert will bring in enough sand to burry them. A few buckets of topsoil with the 8N should do the trick more quickly.

 

[davidwyby]

Underwor, techdave, thanks much for the good input/backing me up.

Ajc4, giving you a hard time in return

Stumper n TreesNhorses... If you and I were standing around the parking lot talking after work, and you called me an idiot, I'd ask you to leave. And that would be me being nice. How is it lost on you that the 'net is or should be the same. Common courtesy. I see a lot of people come on here asking questions of you arborists. Treat 'em rudely, and they're gonna decide arborists are jerks. Bad for business. It's not ok to insult people just becasue you're not in person. If you think I have a bad idea, unsafe, or unwise, say so. Don't call me an idiot. Furthermore, my methods are not idiotic, just slower. Were farmers of yesteryear idiots for buildng the contraptions they did for removing stumps with horses? I may not have the $ available for big equipment, but I do have the shop, skills, time, scrap materials, and determination to build or fix what I need to get the job done with what I have. I happen to enjoy this, it's a challenge. Maybe you don't think it's fun cuz you do it for a living. Whatever. I can rent a 'hoe for a weekend for $350, including dropoff and pickup, because I have a good relationship with the rental companies - I fix their stuff when it breaks. But even that is out of my friends price range. They just moved onto the property, and the sale of their old house fell thru, so they're hurting for $. Her boss is giving her some trees to plant in a month or so, and Salt Cedars are terrible about invading water/sewer lines, so they need to come out. I'll document my progress for those interested. Those that aren't, if you don't have anythign nice to say, don't say anything at all. least that's what MY mom taught ME.

 

[ajc4]

I'll admit that my first post is bit abrasive upon re-reading it. I'll apologize for that. The tone was meant to be one of jest. That seems to be responsible for getting this started. I dont want to start (or further kindle) a flame ware here, but my interpretation of Stumper's post was that he was trying to clarify that he thought your plan was "unwise" and specifically not that you were an idiot.

DavidB, you need to remember that this is a public form. Sometime in the future someone that doesnt have much experience with this kind of stuff (lets call him Harry Homeowner) is going to go to google to find of if its a good coarse of action to try to brute force a huge tree with a small tractor. When he finds this thread, the aswer he should recieve is surely not "NO PROBLEM, GO AHEAD!" Form the size you give, 3ft base diam, 50 ft tall, I'd estimate that trunk weighs about 3 ton. I dont think an 8N could even skid a 3 ton log across flat groud. So surely getting the roots, stump & log out at once is no small matter.

You've indicated that your excided about the challenge. I agree with that sentiment. I guess what keeps attracting me to this thread. Just because old farmers did it with horses though doesnt mean it was safe. If your going to try this, do, as you said that you inted, go slow, and be careful. Its going to be a lot of work. A lot of shoveling, chopping roots with an axe (the tractor can only help so much) -- basically doing what you would do with a hoe, only by hand. With enough determination ... ? I've already said that I'd go a light/air deprivation + herbicide route. Though the othe posters indicate that this speies is tough to kill off.

Your friend may not be able to afford $350 for the hoe, but lets be honest here. This job is coming out of your pocket, not thiers. Your time, machinery, sweat. I've read in your other posts that you've already banged up your saw dropping it out of these trees. (Not calling you names here, it can happen). Dont get anyone hurt, or killed, and dont break your $5k tractor ... or your $40k truck just for $350 savings plus the excitment of the challenge.

You did say you'd have pics to post. If ya have em, I'm curious to see. Whatever you end up doing, if you can snap a few shots of the process, that'd be fun to see too.

Cheers.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

The stump grinding is a good idea if you can find the budget for it.

A search for (stump herbicide) pulls up a few good threads. From what I''ve read there, the plan of attack I'd try is:

1) Apply herbicide (the other postings give some details of what, how, how much, where).
2) Wait a few weeks to let the herbicide soak into the roots
3) Cover the stump with some plastic and somthing opaque on top of that (dirt would work). No light = dead tree.

I can see how a tough tree might survive step #1. I can not see how any plant could survive step #3. Wait a year or so after the stump-cover treatment to make sure its good & dead.

Since time is an issue here, the above suggestion AND my add-on are useless to you.

But here goes anyway:

Before you lay down the plastic, soak those stumps and then add some septic tank treatment under that plastic. It is reputed to rot things very quickly. (I'm testing that on a few small stumps right now, in fact.)

I know how it is when someone is offering you free plants - it's sure hard to turn them down. I got some free stuff this summer, and didn't really have time for it, but I MADE time for it.

But in this case, it really might be the best thing. Any chance the boss can hang on to the trees until next year?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I'll admit that my first post is bit abrasive upon re-reading it. I'll apologize for that. The tone was meant to be one of jest.

Always the problem with online communication! We all struggle with it, no?




Well, no. Fish doesn't struggle with it. He doesn't care!

 

[Stumper]

David, I apologize for the smart-alec tone of my last statement in my previous post. The opening line really was intended to say that my negative comments weren't intended to slander your intelligence. I kind of got the impression that trying to dissuade you is considered an insult. You can do as you like. It is possible to do the whole job by hand. A little tractor will certainly help-but the right equipment is cheaper and safer. It sounds like you have a job that would cost less to have a stumpgrinder come out than the rental on the backhoe. Rental on a portable stumpgrinder may run less than $125. Why you would fabricate attachments and risk tearing up your tractor instead of spending the time/money to obtain the right tools and or personell defies logic-If you are out to accomplish the difficult on your own fine-but be aware that is not very prudent. :angel:

 

[davidwyby]

I may try to cut 'em down and herbicide 'em. Problem is, it's not as simple as stumps that can be cut off ground level. There are fallen and rooted logs too. that's how they spread, like willows and such. Aj mentioning skidding the logs made me think..I don't really wanna saw all those huge logs up, (although the truck could prolly skid 'em if I needed to) so I may bring out the forklift and F-700 flatbed and haul them off. Pics are worth a thousand words...hopefully tonight. I haven't taken any myself, but they have. I'm goign to try to get them tonight. I'll start taking pix next weekend I'm out there. Thanx all for the ideas. Pologize if I was offended buy something that wasn't meant to be offensive. I'm just kind of a nice easy going guy, only thing that gets me going is when other people get crabby or rude.

 

[davidwyby]

Not familiar with grinding...can ya grind 'em below ground level?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Yes, you can. I don't know how deep the big commerical grinders would go, but the local rental yard should have one that can go a foot deep or so. Should be enough to kill the beast.

Do a search on stump grinding here and I think you'll find some info on that.


Here's one thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=24255

 

[ajc4]

For that matter ... grind em, throw on some herbicide, put the septic treatment on, put plastic on & burry it. Then spit on it for good measure. That sould kill the suckers!

Serious though, careful with chemicals, ground water contamination & such. Round-up in appropriate doses is supposed to break down in the soil. I dont know abut the septic treatment mentioned earlier in the thread. If its made tobe added to septic tanks, then presumably it also winds up in the leach field, so it must be benign enough to be OK. But do check into that before hand.