lead substitute for 090??

[mackie]

i'm pretty stoked about my "new" stihl 090, if my snowmobile wasnt broken i would have got it set up on the mill today. its too heavy to haul up the hill by hand. its got a new 3/8" 10 tooth sprocket from madsens to increase the chain speed for milling (thanks to a helpful thread from this site) anyway, what do you guys think about adding lead substitute to the gas, seems to me it couldnt hurt especially when milling.

 

[eyolf]

Lead substitute is helpful in some 4-stroke engines because of valve seat problems, or in some extremely high-compression engines...like 12:1 or 13:1. In a two-stroke , mid-range, non oxygenated fuel contains all the anti-knock you'll need. The additives would be wasted money and might even build up deposits inside.

 

[2Coilinveins]

Using lead substitute in a chainsaw would be trying to fix a problem that just doesn't exist. Installing A/C while living in Antarctica. If you're that worried, try some avgas. 100LL will run cooler, is a much higher quality fuel compared to auto gas, AND it has lead.

 

[mackie]

thank you, i'll just use stihl oil. i cant wait anymore, so i am heading up the hill with the saw strapped to my backpack so i can get the mill running today, its only a mile with about 1200 feet of vertical gain.

 

[Al Smith]

Up the hill?

I do remember something about milling at 10,000 ft altitude,but why.From my trips to the high country,all I can remember that high is quaking aspen,small at that.Well,perhaps other areas of the rockies have other type trees but then again,I'm a flatlander.

 

[mackie]

Al,

why is definately a good question. #1, economics, if youre not a richer, sometimes you have to do things the hard way, like building a hand built cabin on a north facing slope, because you cant afford a house in town, not that you want to live in town. by the way, aspens grow on south facing slopes, spruce and fir on north facing slopes, at this elevation anyway, and youre right they are pretty small, 4"-10" typ, up to 20" or the occasional 24 inch tree, but you have to piss with the cock you're given, right? most of my wall logs ended up 6x6 or 5x5, but i milled a couple 10x12's this weekend

 

[2Coilinveins]

not that you want to live in town.

You got that right! The number of idiots in a given area seems to grow exponentially in relation to population density.

 

[ErrolC]

As eolf explained..lead in fuel is there for 4stroke exh valve seat lubrication in older car engines with soft cast iron seats..modern cars have hard inserts..I wouldn't want to be breathing the exhust emissions from your saw..there is no advantage in using high octane fuel above 92 (here in NZ thats as low as we get) unless your saw has been modified and is detonating which you will feel (look for little beads welded to the spark plug..thats bits of your piston and its probably getting to late by then) to take advantage of high octane you need high compression .. see "compression vs horsepower(http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=22329) has a mater of the engines breathing capacity..ie how much air it can pump into the cylinder ea stroke..it gets a bit long winded from here..read the book "2 stroke performance tuning" by A G Bell..running higher octane than the engine and compression are designed for can make them run hotter (and not for good reasons)..and like I said, without any gains

 

[bwalker]

Lead cant be absorbed through the lungs so breathing leading fuel fumes is no worse than unleaded fuel fumes.

 

[Al Smith]

Al,

why is definately a good question. #1, economics, if youre not a richer, sometimes you have to do things the hard way, like building a hand built cabin on a north facing slope, because you cant afford a house in town, not that you want to live in town. by the way, aspens grow on south facing slopes, spruce and fir on north facing slopes, at this elevation anyway, and youre right they are pretty small, 4"-10" typ, up to 20" or the occasional 24 inch tree, but you have to piss with the cock you're given, right? most of my wall logs ended up 6x6 or 5x5, but i milled a couple 10x12's this weekend

Yes,I do remember the north slope,south slope thing.I can remember seeing the remains of high country mills,of the 30's.Some of the spruce stumps were close to 6 ft across.If I recall,a spruce beetle attacked the trees and now they are like the American elm ,in that they seldom get any bigger than 24 inches.The Col. rocky Mt's.,are most defiantly God's country.Lot's of big sky there,kind of like the top of the world.

 

[ErrolC]

bwalker: Health and Environmental Effects: Exposure to lead occurs mainly through inhalation of air and ingestion of lead in food, water, soil, or dust. It accumulates in the blood, bones, and soft tissues and can adversely affect the kidneys, liver, nervous system, and other organs. Excessive exposure to lead may cause neurological impairments such as seizures, mental retardation, and behavioral disorders. Even at low doses, lead exposure is associated with damage to the nervous systems of fetuses and young children, resulting in learning deficits and lowered IQ. Recent studies also show that lead may be a factor in high blood pressure and subsequent heart disease. Lead can also be deposited on the leaves of plants, presenting a hazard to grazing animals and humans through ingestion. http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/lead.html

 

[ErrolC]

BENZENE IN THE ATMOSPHERE
The carcinogen benzene is an inexpensive substitute for lead. A significant amount of fuel finds its way into the atmosphere as benzene.7

Dr Arthur Chesterfield-Evans, an occupational health expert, believes the public had been misled by claims that by removing the lead from petrol, its negative environmental and health effects have been reduced. He says, "We have been subject to a concentrated disinformation campaign in the form of a seductively simple 'no lead, no worries' message."8

The US EPA claims that half of all cancer cases may be related to air pollution.9 For a lifelong exposure to a microgram of benzene per cubic metre (approx. 1 part per billion), it estimates that 2.8 people per million will be diagnosed with leukaemia

In 1977, Prof. Maltoni's Foundation showed that benzene was a powerful carcinogen causing many types of cancers, particularly leukaemia. Several other compounds contained in vehicle emissions were also found to be carcinogenic.

Professor Maltoni said, "There are risks with gasoline containing high aromatic hydrocarbons, risks with US gasoline containing high paraffin content, and risks with oxygenate-additive gasolines. Particular concern must be attached to gasolines with a high aromatic hydrocarbon content. Benzene is one of the most powerful industrial carcinogens. Alkyl benzenes likewise entail cancer risk."12
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/ulp2.html

 

[ErrolC]

There was a lot of debate about the effects of lead in fuel and atmospheric emission with health effects when 98oct leaded fuel was stopped in NZ..& the subsequent effects that lead replacements (aromatics) would have & whether they improved our lot or not...I run standard 92 oct..my saws have all run fine on it..one of my favourite quotes..INSANITY..doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different result..read the literature..take your chances...make up your own mind knowingly..why increase the risk..

 

[Blowdown1]

Aspiration of lead, via dust or vaporized fumes, is the number one OSHA exposure risk. It is why when removing lead-based paint you are not supposed to dry sand or use high heat to remove it (because of vaporization).

 

[bwalker]

I have a refferance some where that suggests TEL or tetra ethyl lead isnt absorbable through inhalation. Is the lead found in paint, etc a differant compound.

 

[Blowdown1]

TEL was a specific compound formulation (of lead) for the purpose of gas additive by our local Ethyl Corp right here in Richmond (hence the name). Upon combustion the lead seperates and also produces other lead compounds. It may be perhaps some of those other compounds that are not readily absorbed, I'm not sure. But the plain ol' Pb constituent is readily absorbed and is the primary reason leaded gas was removed from most markets, though Ethyl still sells a lot of TEL to developing nations that don't ban it. The other chlorides and crap in there are also quite nasty as well.

 

[bwalker]

I have heard second hand that the bromide scavenging compounds used to lessin lead deposits where more toxic than the lead itself. The current strategy of using aromatics,, and oxygenates isnt much better though. Some of the aromatics like benzene, toluene, and xylene are really nasty.
We just had a DeHavilland Otter land at our dock today. Love the smell of avgas and Aeroshell from those big 9 cylinder radial motors.

 

[Blowdown1]

Correct you are. In fact the TEL is nasty for a number of reasons, lead included as well as the chlorides I mentioned. I'm just guessing here, but I think one reason the exposure risk isn't as great with the other oxygenates, additives, etc is that they don't have the habit of settling out like lead does. So even if you are not breathing the lead-laden exhaust directly, because lead is a heavy element it would settle out and contaminate all sorts of stuff, most notably soils along or near road or get transported end deposited elsewhere. The other organics I think pose the greatest risk for immediate and concentrated exposure. TEL actually caused lots of worker deaths when they first started making it in the 1920s-30s.

They (Ethyl) tried to claim some really wacky stuff about the workers to veil the problem. I can't remember what it was specifically, but it was almost laughable if it were not tragic. Ironically the inventor of TEL, Mr. Midgely, also invented this other contraption of ropes & pulleys that would rotate him in his hospital bed while he was laid up after an accident (so as to avoid bedsores). The thing ended up strangling him after he got entangled in it.

BTW, the lead in paint was referred to as "white lead" since it was an oxidized form of lead which was then scraped off and added to the paint. We had to deal w/ elevated blood lead levels in our daughter when we moved into an older house w/ some chipping paint on the doors and windows. Not fun. I figure if it were not for lead paint and gas I'd be a veritable genius!

 

[ErrolC]

http://www.minerals.csiro.au/safety/lead.htm Toxicity
The toxicity of the various lead compounds appears to depend upon several factors: (i) the solubility of the compound in the body fluids; (ii) the fineness of the particles of the compound (solubility is greater in proportion to the fineness of the particles); and (iii) conditions under which the compound is being used….Lead arsenate is very toxic because of the arsenic radical; lead carbonate, lead monoxide, and lead sulphate, are considered to be more toxic than metallic lead or other lead compounds. Organolead compounds are rapidly absorbed by the respiratory and gastrointestinal systems, and through the skin. Tetraethyl lead, which is used as an anti-knock agent in petrol, is converted in the body to triethyl lead, which is a more severe neurotoxin than inorganic lead.
Lead induced toxicity of the central nervous system causes delayed development, diminished intelligence and altered behaviour, especially in children. These effects have been shown to occur at blood lead levels between 0.48-0.96 micromol/L (10-20 microg/dL) [5]. Indeed, occupational hygienists believe that some children will never reach their full IQ potential because of exposure to the fumes emitted from cars using leaded petrol (remember the concerns raised about the high levels of lead in children in the Collingwood area when the F19 freeway was made operational).
Consider the past and businesses attitude towards tobacco…Aspestos…mercury (as a medicine)…radiation (medicinal therepy)

http://yarchive.net/chem/tetraethyl_lead.html Bruce Hamilton wrote:
I don't believe that the toxicity of TEL was ever shown.
Nonsense, the parts of the FAQ that you carefully omitted *pointed* to references on the subject , and I'll include some others also from the FAQ.
However, the toxicity of tetra ethyl lead is not the only relevant issue. When tetra ethyl led is burned in an engine, it forms lead oxide, which is not especially desirable but is also not especially toxic.

What is formed is a range of lead compounds and metallic lead - depending on the combustion conditions. These compounds will deposit in the combustion chamber, exhaust manifold, and exhaust system and the engine soon ceases to function. As the FAQ notes, right up until the 1950s it was common to find balls of metallic lead rolling around inside the muffler because the scavenger formulation was not optimum.

However, ethylene dibromide is another typical additive, often used in combination with tetra ethyl lead which burns to form products which combine with lead oxide to form lead bromide. Lead bromide is toxic and volatile, and is one of the more troublesome of the compounds produced from the burning of leaded gasoline.

Either ethylene dichloride and/or ethylene dibromide can, and are, used as scavengers usually around equal amounts of each, and it is only in aviation gasoline where ethylene dibromide is solely specified ( to reduce the corrosion of aluminium ).

[Stuff about catalyst poisoning deleted, all in the FAQ, along which
other toxic emissions such as the organohalogens like dioxin ]

 

[ErrolC]

Consider the past attitudes businesses & industry have had towards tobacco…Aspestos…mercury (as an oral medicine)…radiation (medicinal therepy to stimulate the mind)...it goes on, however facts remain...just think about fuel additives, whether lead or aromatics...when you are croached over your saw reving its heart out right in front of your face in a pocket of fumes...not all days are breezey...aah the outdoors and all that fresh air...ponders thinking more about