liberty
ArboristSite Operative
Does anyone have or know for sale a 22 GPM pump for my splitter. I presently have a 16 gpm pump on a 5" cylinder with a 12.5 hp motor. Looking to speed things up. Thanks
Looking for a 22 GPM pump
- Thread starter liberty
- Start date
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rx7145
ArboristSite Guru
surpluscenter.com and northern both sell haldex barnes 22 gpm versions.
9-11-15 are pretty cheap. Big jump in price for 22 and 28
ebay also has alot.
kcj
9-11-15 are pretty cheap. Big jump in price for 22 and 28
ebay also has alot.
kcj
cmetalbend
ArboristSite Operative
Go check out baileys.net
I picked one up on E-bay for under $200 on a buy-it now.
liberty
ArboristSite Operative
I found nothing on ebay and surplus center is $60 nore than northern.
Here is a 22 gpm pump on E-bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Haldex-Hydrauli...ryZ48718QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Haldex-Hydrauli...ryZ48718QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
mga
wandering
that appears to be like the one i have. it should be a 22/11 gpm pump.
haldex used to have pdf files on the pumps but they would not open when i was just there. i attempted to look for a 1057 model number, but didn't have any success. perhaps that's a model number given for a specific buyer to sell under their name?
Most haldex are 4:1 ratio, meaning 22 and 5.5 gpm at 3600 rpm
1057 is probably the northern hydr number, they have 4 digits. my ancient 28 gpm is 1058.
I was watching the ebay pump ONLY in case someone wants t bigger one. 22 and 28 are uncommon on there. I dont need it, go for it.
kcj
1057 is probably the northern hydr number, they have 4 digits. my ancient 28 gpm is 1058.
I was watching the ebay pump ONLY in case someone wants t bigger one. 22 and 28 are uncommon on there. I dont need it, go for it.
kcj
liberty
ArboristSite Operative
I have 1/2" supply and 3/4" return hoses. Are these adequate for a 22gpm pump?
mga
wandering
oops...you're right. i had to fish out my information on the pump, but here's a pdf file in case any one is interested:
www.hbus.haldex.com/products/documents/GC9500final_020706.pdf
and another:
www.hbus.haldex.com/products/documents/hi_lo_pg_rev1203.pdf
Mga: tks for great links, to the submerged electrical power pack with the D series info. For whatever reason Haldex catalog link on their two stage page has been down for a year or more….
Liberty:
I think you have a good plan. Get more speed and use the engine hp you have. Was it originally built with an 8 hp engine?
another 'copy-edit-paste' post......from prior writings that apply here.
1. Your current ’16 gpm’ pump (at 3600 rpm) is .259 cubic inch small section plus .776 in3 large section, for total fast mode of 1.035 in3. With efficiency, expect 14.5 gpm out of the combined fast mode. Just assuming a 5B x 24 Stroke, that would extend in 7 seconds. Does that sound about right?
Unloading pressure is adjustable form 400 to 700 psi. 14.5 gpm at 700 psi is 7.2 hp. You have lots of wasted engine capability, maybe the unloader could be shimmed up a bit higher to over 1000 psi to use your more of your hp, I am not sure. You want it as high as possible to get the most force to split more before it shifts to low speed.
Once it shifts to high pressure, low speed, 3.6 gpm at 2500 psi is still only 6.5 hp. Again, the full 12 hp engine is not being used. (Did it originally come with an 8 hp engine? That is the common match with this pump.)
For comparison:
2. ’22 gpm’ is .465 in3 + .930 in3 = total of 1.395 in3. That would be 19.6 gpm and extend in about 5.2 seconds. 19.6 gpm with the unloader cranked up to maximum of 700 psi is 9.6 hp.
In slow speed, 6.5 gpm at 2500 psi is 11.5 hp. That is the only concern I would have: is the 12.5 advertised engine hp really up there? You DON’T want to have to back off the relief valve from 2500 to much lower, else lose force. On the other side, making a couple extra strokes to carve off the chunk a few times a day is still great when you have speeded up hundreds of cycles by almost 2 seconds each cycle, each direction.
Bunny trail: the common Honda ‘5.5 and 6.0’ hp engines advertised are NOT that hp! The Honda website itself lists the GX160 at 4.6 hp, 3600 rpm maximum, when for years they put 5.5 sticker in big letters on the side. It doesn’t say ‘hp’ anywhere, yet that is what almost every manufacturer, seller, and ebay ad says. People think it is a 5.5 hp engine when it is not. Possibly if it was wound up to say 4000 rpm it might have that hp, but even then, Honda recommends maximum speed of 3600 and sets the governor accordingly.
So, do the pump calcs, or easier just have lots of extra hp to be sure!
3. Curiously, the ’28 gpm’ pump has the same small stage .465 in3, just a larger low pressure side 1.395 = 1.86 total in3.
That means the high pressure situation of 6.5 gpm at 2500 psi and 11.5 hp is the exact same as the ’22 gpm’ pump, which has the same .465 in3 small stage.
The low pressure fast mode would be faster, cycling in 4 seconds, at 26 gpm. However, the unloader setting would have to be reduce to maybe 600 psi for 11.5 hp drawn from the engine.
What this means is that the 28 would give you identical slow speed, high psi and hp, but faster low speed motion, just a bit lower unloading pressure. I would go that route IF the tank suction, filter, valve and hoses would handle it, but I doubt they will if you have a purchased machine originally built around 16 gpm.
HOSES AND CONDUCTORS
Lines are most correctly sized by pressure drop, but most designers don’t do all the complexity. Good ‘rule of thumb’ for pressure lines is 7 to 15 feet per second of velocity. Return should be on the low end of that range. Suction lines should be 2 to 5 ft/second.
Figure the area of the ID of the hose, the gpm of the flow, convert from 1 gallon is 231 cubic inches, 12 inches per foot, 60 seconds per minutes, etc. and get feet per second of velocity. I don’t figure all that, I use a cookbook spreadsheet that will someday be part of a web page with all the other speed/gpm/cubic inches/torque/horsepower calculations.
Hoses are more commonly listed in the industrial world in ‘dash sizes’, which are in 1/16 of an inch. -08 is 8/16 = ½ inch nominal ID, -12 is 12/16 = ¾ inch, etc. That’s what you will see in the Parker/Aeroquip/Gates catalogs. They will also have gpm vs. feet per second sizing graphs.
Velocities in feet per second for various sizes of hose ID
crap, lost the spreadsheet, tried a table, and the formattting is different when posted then when I see it. try again. Can't get it. Have to count across from the left column until I get it.
GPM 11 16 22 28
Hose
-8 (1/2 inch) 18 26 - -
-10 ( 5/8) 12 17 23 -
-12 (3/4) 8 12 16 20
-16 (1 inch) 5 7 9 11
-20 (1-1/4) 3 4 6 7
-24 (1-1/2) 2 3 4 5
So, for 11 gpm, half inch hoses are on the high end, but most common as price is an object for sale machine.
16 gpm and 22 gpm, definitely go to 3/4 hoses.
28 gpm would be high velocity but I would still use ¾ h ose. 1 inch is a big jump in stiffness and cost.
Suction: by ‘rules of thumb’ the 22 gpm should have at least a -20 line, preferably a -24 line. Yet the pump only comes with a 1 inch NPT port or tube fitting. This is poor practice, but very common by the mfr to save space and cost and weight. Jump up to 1-1/4 hose if you could, but if you have to run a very short 1 inch, it will work. Let the oil warm up a bit in cold weather before taking the engine to high idle and maximum flow.
Misc issues to look at:
-Suction strainer. A 1 inch NPT strainer is likely way too small. You may have to cut out the port and weld in a new pipe or 0-ring coupling port.
-Suction line
-Valve. Some are ¾ npt, but still limited on flow by the internal casting design. See what the rated flow and pressure drop is from the manufacturer.
-Return filter size
-Hoses to valve, cylinder, tank, etc.
-Tank size. Rules of thumb ( 1x pump flow, 2x pump flow, etc.) are sort of meaningless, except that the real issue is you will have a lot more heat to deal with pushing more flow through the smaller valves. With high velocity, high heat, and lots of hose with little tubing, the surface area of the tank is the cooling. Try it, watch the temperatures, and maybe add an oil-to-air cooler in the return line. Unfortunately, with 22 gpm pump, there could be surges of 30 gpm out of the cylinder. That is a fairly large and expensive cooler, required because of flow, not because the amount of cooling that it is capable of. Another way is to run the return line in some steel tubing across the inlet screen to the motor. The air sucking into the engine cooling fan will remove some heat form the steel tubing. May seem small, but the required cooling is also pretty small, unless you stall the cylinder across relief valve a lot.
kcj
Liberty:
I think you have a good plan. Get more speed and use the engine hp you have. Was it originally built with an 8 hp engine?
another 'copy-edit-paste' post......from prior writings that apply here.
1. Your current ’16 gpm’ pump (at 3600 rpm) is .259 cubic inch small section plus .776 in3 large section, for total fast mode of 1.035 in3. With efficiency, expect 14.5 gpm out of the combined fast mode. Just assuming a 5B x 24 Stroke, that would extend in 7 seconds. Does that sound about right?
Unloading pressure is adjustable form 400 to 700 psi. 14.5 gpm at 700 psi is 7.2 hp. You have lots of wasted engine capability, maybe the unloader could be shimmed up a bit higher to over 1000 psi to use your more of your hp, I am not sure. You want it as high as possible to get the most force to split more before it shifts to low speed.
Once it shifts to high pressure, low speed, 3.6 gpm at 2500 psi is still only 6.5 hp. Again, the full 12 hp engine is not being used. (Did it originally come with an 8 hp engine? That is the common match with this pump.)
For comparison:
2. ’22 gpm’ is .465 in3 + .930 in3 = total of 1.395 in3. That would be 19.6 gpm and extend in about 5.2 seconds. 19.6 gpm with the unloader cranked up to maximum of 700 psi is 9.6 hp.
In slow speed, 6.5 gpm at 2500 psi is 11.5 hp. That is the only concern I would have: is the 12.5 advertised engine hp really up there? You DON’T want to have to back off the relief valve from 2500 to much lower, else lose force. On the other side, making a couple extra strokes to carve off the chunk a few times a day is still great when you have speeded up hundreds of cycles by almost 2 seconds each cycle, each direction.
Bunny trail: the common Honda ‘5.5 and 6.0’ hp engines advertised are NOT that hp! The Honda website itself lists the GX160 at 4.6 hp, 3600 rpm maximum, when for years they put 5.5 sticker in big letters on the side. It doesn’t say ‘hp’ anywhere, yet that is what almost every manufacturer, seller, and ebay ad says. People think it is a 5.5 hp engine when it is not. Possibly if it was wound up to say 4000 rpm it might have that hp, but even then, Honda recommends maximum speed of 3600 and sets the governor accordingly.
So, do the pump calcs, or easier just have lots of extra hp to be sure!
3. Curiously, the ’28 gpm’ pump has the same small stage .465 in3, just a larger low pressure side 1.395 = 1.86 total in3.
That means the high pressure situation of 6.5 gpm at 2500 psi and 11.5 hp is the exact same as the ’22 gpm’ pump, which has the same .465 in3 small stage.
The low pressure fast mode would be faster, cycling in 4 seconds, at 26 gpm. However, the unloader setting would have to be reduce to maybe 600 psi for 11.5 hp drawn from the engine.
What this means is that the 28 would give you identical slow speed, high psi and hp, but faster low speed motion, just a bit lower unloading pressure. I would go that route IF the tank suction, filter, valve and hoses would handle it, but I doubt they will if you have a purchased machine originally built around 16 gpm.
HOSES AND CONDUCTORS
Lines are most correctly sized by pressure drop, but most designers don’t do all the complexity. Good ‘rule of thumb’ for pressure lines is 7 to 15 feet per second of velocity. Return should be on the low end of that range. Suction lines should be 2 to 5 ft/second.
Figure the area of the ID of the hose, the gpm of the flow, convert from 1 gallon is 231 cubic inches, 12 inches per foot, 60 seconds per minutes, etc. and get feet per second of velocity. I don’t figure all that, I use a cookbook spreadsheet that will someday be part of a web page with all the other speed/gpm/cubic inches/torque/horsepower calculations.
Hoses are more commonly listed in the industrial world in ‘dash sizes’, which are in 1/16 of an inch. -08 is 8/16 = ½ inch nominal ID, -12 is 12/16 = ¾ inch, etc. That’s what you will see in the Parker/Aeroquip/Gates catalogs. They will also have gpm vs. feet per second sizing graphs.
Velocities in feet per second for various sizes of hose ID
crap, lost the spreadsheet, tried a table, and the formattting is different when posted then when I see it. try again. Can't get it. Have to count across from the left column until I get it.
GPM 11 16 22 28
Hose
-8 (1/2 inch) 18 26 - -
-10 ( 5/8) 12 17 23 -
-12 (3/4) 8 12 16 20
-16 (1 inch) 5 7 9 11
-20 (1-1/4) 3 4 6 7
-24 (1-1/2) 2 3 4 5
So, for 11 gpm, half inch hoses are on the high end, but most common as price is an object for sale machine.
16 gpm and 22 gpm, definitely go to 3/4 hoses.
28 gpm would be high velocity but I would still use ¾ h ose. 1 inch is a big jump in stiffness and cost.
Suction: by ‘rules of thumb’ the 22 gpm should have at least a -20 line, preferably a -24 line. Yet the pump only comes with a 1 inch NPT port or tube fitting. This is poor practice, but very common by the mfr to save space and cost and weight. Jump up to 1-1/4 hose if you could, but if you have to run a very short 1 inch, it will work. Let the oil warm up a bit in cold weather before taking the engine to high idle and maximum flow.
Misc issues to look at:
-Suction strainer. A 1 inch NPT strainer is likely way too small. You may have to cut out the port and weld in a new pipe or 0-ring coupling port.
-Suction line
-Valve. Some are ¾ npt, but still limited on flow by the internal casting design. See what the rated flow and pressure drop is from the manufacturer.
-Return filter size
-Hoses to valve, cylinder, tank, etc.
-Tank size. Rules of thumb ( 1x pump flow, 2x pump flow, etc.) are sort of meaningless, except that the real issue is you will have a lot more heat to deal with pushing more flow through the smaller valves. With high velocity, high heat, and lots of hose with little tubing, the surface area of the tank is the cooling. Try it, watch the temperatures, and maybe add an oil-to-air cooler in the return line. Unfortunately, with 22 gpm pump, there could be surges of 30 gpm out of the cylinder. That is a fairly large and expensive cooler, required because of flow, not because the amount of cooling that it is capable of. Another way is to run the return line in some steel tubing across the inlet screen to the motor. The air sucking into the engine cooling fan will remove some heat form the steel tubing. May seem small, but the required cooling is also pretty small, unless you stall the cylinder across relief valve a lot.
kcj
Last edited:
I will change my hoses this year.
The larger pump isn't in my budget
I have been using a 16gpm pump on 1/2 hose. Rarely on full throttle.
Many thanks to Kevin J for putting that info together.
I will also go to the 22gpm, eventually, I am using a 5" cylinder as well.
-Pat
The larger pump isn't in my budget
I have been using a 16gpm pump on 1/2 hose. Rarely on full throttle.
Many thanks to Kevin J for putting that info together.
I will also go to the 22gpm, eventually, I am using a 5" cylinder as well.
-Pat
liberty
ArboristSite Operative
Wow, what a lot of good info. It originally has a B@S 12.5 I/c motor.
double WOW!!
thanks for sharing...
if I understand your info. upgrading to 22gpm from 16gpm w/12.5hp is fine with 3/4in hose. further 12.5hp will support a 28gpm pump as high HP requirements is same as 22gpm pump.
so if my 35ton speeco is already running 3/4in hoses. how can I find out if valve will support 22/28gpm pump. no reason not to go with 28gpm pump if engine/hose/valve will support it. there's only $50 cost difference between 22gpm and 28gpm.
thanks for sharing...
if I understand your info. upgrading to 22gpm from 16gpm w/12.5hp is fine with 3/4in hose. further 12.5hp will support a 28gpm pump as high HP requirements is same as 22gpm pump.
so if my 35ton speeco is already running 3/4in hoses. how can I find out if valve will support 22/28gpm pump. no reason not to go with 28gpm pump if engine/hose/valve will support it. there's only $50 cost difference between 22gpm and 28gpm.
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