Massive Beech, Black Secretion

[humphreyjm]

There is a massive beech tree, maybe 3" in diameter, on the edge of my yard which I drive under every day. The beech has large, spreading branches and shows vigorous growth, but has one dead branch and a large-looking hole where a branch was at one time. The hole is about 7' up the tree. and looks big enough to hold a racoon. There is a black material staining the tree around this hole, as well as around the base of the tree where the roots start. I've heard that beech trees have shallow roots. Does this sound like a safety hazard to anyone, and should I get a professional to look at it? It also casts a lot of shade, so I'm considering removing it. Thanks.

 

[Dan F]

Originally posted by humphreyjm
There is a massive beech tree, maybe 3" in diameter, on the edge of my yard which I drive under every day.

I'll jump in here before Brian has a chance. I'll be a *little* bit nicer at the end, but not much.

How long has the driveway been there? Was it just installed, or has it been there for years and years? And I assume you meant a 3 FOOT diameter tree?

The beech has large, spreading branches and shows vigorous growth,

Sounds right for a beech, nothing wrong here...

but has one dead branch and a large-looking hole where a branch was at one time.

Not unusual for a tree that size.

The hole is about 7' up the tree. and looks big enough to hold a racoon. There is a black material staining the tree around this hole, as well as around the base of the tree where the roots start.

If it's big enough to hold a raccoon, could it be raccoon droppings staining the area around the hole and the base of the tree? Are there any blackberry bushes nearby?

I've heard that beech trees have shallow roots.

ROFLMAO! All trees have shallow roots, the majority of which are in the top 12 inches (or less) of soil! If you are concerned about strength, consider this, directly from Dirr; "A sturdy (emphasis added), imposing tree" (page 369, Manual of Woody Landscape Plants, Michael A. Dirr)

Does this sound like a safety hazard to anyone, and should I get a professional to look at it?

Without a picture, no one here can say for sure. If you are concerned about it, get a registered consulting arborist to look at it. As I understand it, an RCA will give you a reccomendation based on what is best for the tree, not what is best for his/her future work. JPS can probably provide the link info if you are interested.

And now the kicker:

It also casts a lot of shade, so I'm considering removing it. Thanks.

Ok, I've been nice so far. Keep that in mind. I'm going to get on a soapbox and rant a little, you are forewarned!

Why in the H*LL are you condeming this tree for what it does naturally??? What is it with people and these attitudes???

Are you pissed off because you can't get grass to grow? If so, you should realize that when it comes to competition between grass and trees, the trees will *ALWAYS* win (when allowed to that is....).

Do you know how LONG it takes to get a tree that big??????? A lot longer than you andI have been alive, combined! Times 2! We're talking tree time here. Beeches are not trees you see very often in today's landscape, and you want to cut it down?

Yes, it casts a lot of shade. Once again, that is what it is supposed to do. Do you know what else it does? I don't know where to start.... Oh, yeah, it casts shade. Hmmmmm, shade usually equals cooler temperatures. If it's anywhere near the house, I bet your electric bill will go up if you cut it down. What else? Oxygen! Care to breathe? Reduces soil compaction from falling rain, not to mention the beautiful leaf color in the fall....

Ok, maybe I was a little harsh. If you thought I was harsh though, be prepared if Brian wants to shout a little!

There are other ways to look at it than to cut it down. Enjoy it for what it is, not hate it for what it's not.


Dan

 

[humphreyjm]

Yup, 3 ft in diameter. Driveway: 25 years old, gravel. Black secretion: I was wondering in this were some form of decomposition...I take it probably not. My shade-argument does sound absurd. We have lots of trees-oaks, maples, beeches. We also have a small garden patch that almost gets enough sun for tomatos, but not quite. The beech blocks a good portion of the garden. Four years ago I planted a black walnut tree. It started at 1 ft tall, and now after this years growth it is pushing 9 ft and is starting to fill out and looks great. It is in competition with the big beech, which, besides shading the garden and my walnut tree, frightens me whenever I drive under it. Sure, the walnut will eventually block the garden too, but not for another 30 years. You are absolutely right about the tree--it would take a very long time to replace it. And it is an awesome tree to look at--I guess I'll keep it. Thanks for your good advice.

 

[Dan F]

walnut trees and gardens- not a good mix

If you want to continue to grow a garden, my suggestion is to move/remove the walnut.

Walnuts produce a chemical known as juglone which is secreted as a defense mechanism to kill competing plants. In time, you will have a hard time getting anything to grow in the garden, and not because of the shade, but because of the juglone.

I don't know how far away is safe enough though. I know they (walnut) will do a number on peonies, and I suspect they will have a harmfull effect on the tomato plants. The aforementioned Dirr (I still have the book right here) makes no mention about the juglone, though it is fairly common knowledge.

If you are concerned about shading your garden, have a certified arborist take a look at the beech and recomend some pruning work to get more light to the garden area.


Dan

 

[humphreyjm]

Juglone? I hadn't heard that. Our library has that Dirr book you mentioned. I'm going to check it out today. The walnut tree is at least >100 ft from the garden so I should be fine with that. I imagine the tree will decimate my lawn, by I'd rather drink a cold one in the shade than cut grass on a hot day anyhow. Besides, I can't cut the walnut down yet. I'm going to build a Morris chair out of it in 30 years.

 

[Dan F]

mowing on a hot day...



I hear that. I don't think the juglone affects turf too badly. Some things are resistant, others are not.

100' is probably borderline in several years, though I'm still not sure at what distance you are safe.

My parents house has a black walnut in the yard. Probably about 6-8" diameter. Over the last 10-15 years, I've watched a peony bush go from beautiful in bloom to strictly foliage to nothing because of that tree. The tree is probably 20-30 feet away from where the peony was.

I'd say you've got a few years before you need to worry about the garden being affected.

A quick google search on juglone will probably turn up more info...


Dan

 

[Striker]

Then there are the exceptions. We had peonies that grew within twenty feet of a walnut for years. The p[eonies were full of beautiful blossoms every year. I can't explain it. It may have been a soil factor of some kind coming into play. ?

 

[Dan F]

Brian was nicer than I thought he'd be!

Of course, I may have stolen some of his thunder.


Dan

 

[humphreyjm]

Dan F, I should probably thank you for that. I took a closer look at the black stuff yesterday. It looks like some kind of fungus or mushroom. Rocky squirrel, I've decided to keep the tree, but I want to paint it to match the house. Is this a bad idea?

(Yes, I'm kidding!)

 

[DadF]

What Danf neglected to mention was the d!mn silver maple that is also shading out the peonies and that when they quit blooming several years ago the mower kept getting a little closer....

Brian- yes there used to be 4 silver maples in the yard and now there are 2 BUT there is also the start of a garage where the wasn't before. Talk about root systems! Almost forgot where the exact tree locations were(I ground the stumps with a Vermeer 753 as deep and as wide as I could go, coming in from all directions) until we started digging the footers. The remaining roots outside the grinding area were still a solid mass in several places and gave the mini-excavator fits in few places. Once I got down below 12" the digging was great! A real testament to the typical rooting pattern.
Don't worry though Brian there is now a Scarlet oak, a Red sunset, an Autumn blaze and a blackgum in the yard(tried some sourwoods but didn't make it) where there weren't before. Hopefully by the time I retire there will be enough shade that I won't have to mow as much.

Now all I'm concerned about is trying to make the new siding on the house blend in with all the new tree colors.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by humphreyjm I took a closer look at the black stuff yesterday. It looks like some kind of fungus or mushroom.
** If you want to post a picture of the fungus and we'll try to ID it and talk treatment.
btw there are many ways to manage a tree. Thinning a little to open up the middle is not a mortal sin in most arborists' eyes. Thinning does decrease windsail effect, and is justifiable for aesthetic reasons for some tree owners. However, it's key to look at the disease(?) and root health before doing anything to the tree's structure.
Rocky's last paragraph tells his story..."I hate dealing with people..."

 

[humphreyjm]

Thanks Guy, will-do. I'll try to get a photo posted in a couple days.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Juglone effects plants in the nightshade family the most, which include tomatoes and peppers.

the discharge you see may be called "slime flux"

here is a search on slime flux

Guy, the operative word in your statement is "a little". I'm sure Brian was refering to the "Gut and raise" crowd that will rape a tree and tell the home owner that they are the best and the cheapest.

BTW, see this in front of the qoute? if you put thype that at the end of the quote, but put a slash (/) in front of the i it will close the code and italicize the paragraph for bold you do this [/b] like I did with the and in the above paragraph.

It will make your posts much easier to read.

Just don't tell me to learn how to spell

 

[Guy Meilleur]

JPS your link was to an eqpt mfr not on slime flux.

If the infection has a shroom there is more going on than just slime flux. Fungi and bacteria are sometimes symbiotic with each other, to the detriment of the tree.

"Slime flux" comes from an active bacterial infection. Much of the literature recommends doing nothing about these, but some of the bacteria are such virulent cambium-killers, often on old oaks, this laissez-faire advice has to be set aside. Excavating rot, flushing and disinfecting are called for with the bark-killers.

7' up an old beech, sounds like a branch stub hollowed out. Not much needed to do with those. Show us the shroom!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
... Thinning does decrease windsail effect, and is justifiable for aesthetic reasons for some tree owners...

The research I have read is mixed at best on this subject, many site increased windsail on trees that were thinned.
What is justifiable for the homeowner is not what is best for the tree.

I was at a guys house who had a bad trunk injury on a nice hardwood. He was backing his truck into it and when I suggested putting a timber on the ground a few feet from the tree, he said bumping the tree was his way of knowing when to stop backing up. It was justifiable to him, but was it good for the tree? Should I now go on Residential forums and claim that damaging the trunk of hardwoods is ok in some situations?

Your "Hack up the big trees, it's good for the grass" rhetoric is confusing to those that come to a tree forum and read these comments, not knowing you are a landscaper with little interest in mature tree health.

In addition to stumbling a little on tree health issues, I noticed you are have issues with HTML codes. Try only using them in pairs around the text, the first turns on the command, the second turns off the command. Like this (only use the correct brackets): {quote}{b} text text text {i} text{/i} text{/b}{/quote}

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas

Your "Hack up the big trees, it's good for the grass" rhetoric is confusing to those that come to a tree forum and read these comments, not knowing you are a landscaper with little interest in mature tree health.
I never said anything like that, Mike. I can be interested in mature tree health and still take off a green branch now and then, for aesthetics and many other good reasons.
And I've been an arborist for 38 years, never a landscaper; that's a low blow indeed.
Let's turn down the flames and stick to the issues, OK?

In addition to stumbling a little on tree health issues, I noticed you are have issues with HTML codes.
nOt really, I just found the bold/nonbold format a hassle. But since you and jps gently reminded me I'll follow it.
My major issues are with those arborists who knee-jerkedly nonthink in terms of absolutes, forgetting that "There are no absolutes in Nature." (A. Shigo):jester:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Before I turn down the flames...

Let's say I am your family doctor and you bring your 16 year old daughter in. How would you react if I told you to make sure she doesn't get any exersise because muscular women are unattractive, then I suggested you show her how to throw up her meals so she gets really thin, and finally told you to schedule silicone breast implants to improve her attractivness?
As her father you would not follow his advice because even though you want her to look good, you would not put her health at risk. Maybe just a haircut and some makeup.

What if I were your auto mechanic and told you to put sand into your motor oil because the engine would soon start bellowing beautiful blue smoke?
Again, you are not going to ruin your cars engine just to have the smoke, I imagine you would just live with a plain looking car that doesn't beautify the air.

With trees though you take a different tac. Push them to their limits and beyond, for asthetics?
Here's where I get confused. I know you can do a lot a things to a tree, like that willow you took two thirds out of. What happens down the road? Will that willow ever rot and fall on the garage? Is it worth the worry of having a huge cavity there for the next tweny years until it falls on the garage. Will it be a huge hazard removal some day. Like youi say, it's still alive, but what have you done long term?

This got me to thinking about landscapers, arborists and foresters. Landscapers care about the grass, flowers, bushes and trees equally and how they look and work togther. Arborists care about induvidual trees. Foresters care about the hole forest. Someone who knows they are harming the tree to make it more asthetically pleasing to the client, is probably more of a landscaper than the other two, maybe that doesn't even fit.

 

[Dan F]

Landscapers

Mike,

I will take exception to your statements about landscapers!

I am a landscaper, first and foremost. However, I do care about trees, probably more than 99% of all other landscapers out there. I won't disagree that 90% (or better) of landscapers don't know (or care for that matter, though I think it just boils down to knowledge) what impact they can have on trees.

But you see, when it comes to trees, I am somewhat unique in the landsculpting world. I took a class in college (probably my most favorite class) covering many aspects of urban arboriculture. I learned how to climb trees. I learned the proper pruning methods. And most importantly for YOUR job security, I learned the proper way to PLANT trees. Like I said though, this all came about through schooling and training. I think more and more landscapers are learning the value in doing things right, instead of the way "it's always been done".

I think the value of a mature tree in the eyes of a client 20-30 years down the road is much more than the value to me of a 2" tree planted 4 times in that 20-30 year span. I want to be able to go back to that tree with my kids (even though I know they won't really care much at the time, just like I didn't) and say, "I planted that tree before you were born, and look at it now!".

I know most plants in an average urban landscape will have out-lived their usefulness in 10-15 years. They will have been pruned incorrectly or not at all, will be too large for the space, diseased/infested, neglected in general, or by that time, in the wrong sun exposure. Trees however, if planted correctly and watered properly the first year, will stand the test of time.

I have said it here before, but I am fortunate enough to work for a company that cares about the long-term and allows me to spend the extra 15-20 minutes (sometimes less, sometimes more) per tree planted to find the root flare and set it at the appropriate hieght. We are not in the habit of "slamming" stuff in the ground and moving on to the next project, though many in our business are.

There are good landscapers out there as well as plenty of bad ones. Just like in tree care. Don't forget that important aspect. I could spout off about "all you tree hackers" out there, but I don't because I know better. This is not the place for that, because those people are not likely to be here, or at least not for very long.

So I guess it boils down to the fact that I try to do what is best for the tree, based on my prior experience and knowledge, balanced with what the customer wants/needs. I don't hesitate to "limb up" a tree, when necessary. If the tree is over a sidewalk, I will cut off a branch (or parts of a branch) that hit my head. At 6'2", I don't see 95% of people having problems with that tree after I'm done with it. I do try to keep the tree looking as natural as possible though. I admit that I don't know everything about trees, but neither do you.

Now to borrow a line from Spydy:
Orrrrrrrrr something like that!


Dan

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
I know you can do a lot a things to a tree, like that willow you took two thirds out of. What happens down the road? Will that willow ever rot and fall on the garage?
First off, it was a willow OAK, Q. phellos, much more decay resisatnat than Salix. The 2/3 taht came out was to make room for the garage, no cholce other than removal. I don't think it will hollow out because I think the sealant I used will slow rot. Fire away ye absolutists!

it may be a big hazard way later, but probably not. I'll know because I'll be paid to check the trees on the property annually.
If I didn't have the annual mtc. contract, I might have stressed the advisability of removal. But my customers want to keep their trees; if they didn't they'd be referred to the many hacks in town.

Someone who knows they are harming the tree to make it more asthetically pleasing to the client, is probably more of a landscaper than the other two, maybe that doesn't even fit.

Mike, I'd define "harm to the tree" in the long-term. Yes all pruning is wounding, but if it'll seal it's not harming the tree. YOur teenage-daughter analogy was a good one; when my kid pierced a 3rd hole in her ear I didn't like it but knew it wasn't permanent. When she plucked her eyebrows she lost some of her beauty forever and that was sad.

YOur auto-mechanic analogy was overboard and made no sense. Removing green branches for aesthetics (mine and the client's!)is not evil if long-term health is maintained.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

OK I fixed the link to the slime flux search

Guy, do you have any info on wetwood bacteria and cambial infetions? This is what we think is happening with these Norway maples Ive mentioned on other sites.