Milling long dead wood - can you identify?

[BlueRider]

I think Backwoods nailed it. but just to toss another log on the proverbial fire so to speak; I have heard from a guy that does salvage milling around Portland that there are a few port orford cedars in the area. port orford cedar is not really a cedar but is actualy a cypress relatice and like doug fir it is easily identified by its scent. It is sometimes called ginger cedar but I find the smell is a cross between lemon, ginger and a touch of mint.

port orford cedar's are dying by the grove due to a root fungus.

 

[mtngun]

The thick, brown bark on the stump looks more like Ponderosa to me. Or maybe white pine ?? -- it's been a long time since I've been up in white pine country. Obviously, photos are not the same as seeing it in person. If we could see it in person, we wouldn't be guessing.

The species of Doug Fir that grows in Idaho is different from the Doug Fir on the west coast. Rocky Mountain Douglas is not as big and the bark is not as thick. Bark is typically 1/2" thick, maybe 1" on very large trees (and 24" is large in 2nd growth). It is not brown, but charcoal or grey,. with relatively small scales.

Here's a doug fir in my log pile (the end is coated with latex paint, in case your were wondering). It's bark is maybe 3/8" thick. Yes, it is starting to peel in spots.

A doug fir next to a ponderosa. The ponderosa bark is thick and brown/orange, similar to the bark on the stump in the original post.

The cookie on the left came from a snag that I felled last fall, about 24" diameter. The snag still had all its bark, yet it turned out to be completely rotten.

BTW, I may be the only person in Idaho who refers to it as Douglas Fir. The locals go by its nickname "red fir." It is definitely Douglas, with the easily identifiable cone, but it is a different species than the coastal Douglas. Not as big, and the bark is thinner.

I wish I had pictures of the 50 year old fence posts that I cut up for firewood. Looked rotten on the outside, but the inside was solid and unmistakably orange. Doug fir weathers well if it can breathe. Lay it on the ground, or smother it with wet bark, and it rots quickly.

Having said all that, DaltonPaul's place is a 2 - 3 hours north of me, in white pine country. They get much more precip than I do, almost like the coastal forests, with moss hanging from the trees. Maybe the doug firs up there grow bigger and have thicker bark than my doug fir ?

Let's review the possibilities:

Hemlock -- boards could pass for hemlock, but hemlock rots quickly.

Cedar -- DaltonPaul has milled cedar logs on this property, so if the mystery log were cedar, you'd think he'd recognize it.

Doug Fir -- not orange like Douglas, and douglas is not especially rot resistant, though it weathers well providing it can breathe.

Tamarack -- boards could pass for tamarack, and tamarack is rot resistant -- but I thought tamarack was a relatively small tree ? ? ?

White pine -- they used to grow HUGE in N. Idaho before the blister rust came along. (One near Elk City is 219 feet). Known for long straight trunks free of branches. But what do the boards look like ? I didn't think it was rot resistant ?

Here's a stolen pic of a white pine. I've seen bigger.

A stolen pic of white pine bark. Looks like the bark in the original post, eh ?

A stolen pic of a fallen white pine log. I think I've been to this place -- in the St. Joe forest, between Potlatch and St. Maries.

At the moment, I'm leaning away from tamarack -- because it is too small -- and toward white pine. But there's no way to be sure just from a few photos.

 

[DRB]

Backwoods good point regaurding the bark peeling off easily and the small amount of sap wood due to the slow growth. Bark always seems to peel off easily with age except when you want it to.

 

[Brmorgan]

mtngun, the Douglas Firs up here can get some extremely thick bark, and I live in a fairly dry area which has an almost identical ecology to you, judging by some of the milling shots you've posted anyway. I've cut firewood trees in the 3' diameter range with bark around 6-8" thick. I take the bark as extra firewood - those big pieces burn like fury but don't do your chimney any favors where creosote is concerned. Once I get/build a wood chipper though, I'll be making my own bark mulch I think.

I'd sure like to see some bark from either the stump or farther up this tree. If you can find a piece from around the stump that's fairly thick and large, cut a fresh cross-section of it. That will tell you once and for all. Here's what a D. Fir cross-section looks like:

Hemlock won't have the orange-red color or the distinct cell-like scaly structure. Pines will have a similar scaly structure but much smaller and finer, and not nearly as thick with the exception of Ponderosa. I'm really doubting that a Ponderosa or White Pine would be common in that wet of an environment around Portland though. Both favor drier, well-drained and fairly open hillsides. Larch bark is a light silvery-gray on the outside and a nice deep red on the inside. It is very scaly, with much larger scales than Pines or Spruces which break off very easily if pulled on.

 

[Matildasmate]

Thats a nice pic there Brad of the Doug Fir . Cheers MM

 

[BIG JAKE]

The thick, brown bark on the stump looks more like Ponderosa to me. Or maybe white pine ?? -- it's been a long time since I've been up in white pine country. Obviously, photos are not the same as seeing it in person. If we could see it in person, we wouldn't be guessing.

The species of Doug Fir that grows in Idaho is different from the Doug Fir on the west coast. Rocky Mountain Douglas is not as big and the bark is not as thick. Bark is typically 1/2" thick, maybe 1" on very large trees (and 24" is large in 2nd growth). It is not brown, but charcoal or grey,. with relatively small scales.

Here's a doug fir in my log pile (the end is coated with latex paint, in case your were wondering). It's bark is maybe 3/8" thick. Yes, it is starting to peel in spots.

A doug fir next to a ponderosa. The ponderosa bark is thick and brown/orange, similar to the bark on the stump in the original post.

The cookie on the left came from a snag that I felled last fall, about 24" diameter. The snag still had all its bark, yet it turned out to be completely rotten.

BTW, I may be the only person in Idaho who refers to it as Douglas Fir. The locals go by its nickname "red fir." It is definitely Douglas, with the easily identifiable cone, but it is a different species than the coastal Douglas. Not as big, and the bark is thinner.

I wish I had pictures of the 50 year old fence posts that I cut up for firewood. Looked rotten on the outside, but the inside was solid and unmistakably orange. Doug fir weathers well if it can breathe. Lay it on the ground, or smother it with wet bark, and it rots quickly.

Having said all that, DaltonPaul's place is a 2 - 3 hours north of me, in white pine country. They get much more precip than I do, almost like the coastal forests, with moss hanging from the trees. Maybe the doug firs up there grow bigger and have thicker bark than my doug fir ?

Let's review the possibilities:

Hemlock -- boards could pass for hemlock, but hemlock rots quickly.

Cedar -- DaltonPaul has milled cedar logs on this property, so if the mystery log were cedar, you'd think he'd recognize it.

Doug Fir -- not orange like Douglas, and douglas is not especially rot resistant, though it weathers well providing it can breathe.

Tamarack -- boards could pass for tamarack, and tamarack is rot resistant -- but I thought tamarack was a relatively small tree ? ? ?

White pine -- they used to grow HUGE in N. Idaho before the blister rust came along. (One near Elk City is 219 feet). Known for long straight trunks free of branches. But what do the boards look like ? I didn't think it was rot resistant ?

Here's a stolen pic of a white pine. I've seen bigger.

A stolen pic of white pine bark. Looks like the bark in the original post, eh ?

A stolen pic of a fallen white pine log. I think I've been to this place -- in the St. Joe forest, between Potlatch and St. Maries.

At the moment, I'm leaning away from tamarack -- because it is too small -- and toward white pine. But there's no way to be sure just from a few photos.

Mtngun what's the sealer on the log ends?

 

[mtngun]

Jake, I use leftover or on-sale latex paint for sealing boards and logs. Not as good as "real" sealer, but real sealer has to be ordered. I've heard that aluminum roofing paint works well, too.

Bmorgan, your cookie looks exactly as we would expect Douglas to look -- salmon colored. I've yet to encounter an "albino" douglas fir in my neighborhood.

Yes, I have heard that Doug fir is famous for its thick bark. My local Doug not so much. Perhaps the bark thickness depends on the exact species or on the climate, I dunno.

The original post stated this mystery log was in Northern Idaho, not Portland. White Pine was the dominant tree in N. Idaho prior to the invasion of European blister rust. Cedar was also common.

This is part of a display of old growth white pines north of Potlatch on state highway 3. I used to go bear hunting near there and drove by the display many times. It is like driving through a tunnel, always dark and cool, because because the road is surrounded on both sides by towering old growth pines and cedars. The display used to include the world's tallest white pine, but it died and was cut down in 1999. So yes, white pine does grow in shady, moist areas. Here's the best picture I could find on the net.

Before it was cut down. Not huge by coastal standards, but a monster by Idaho standards. It's a poor picture, but you can see that it is growing in a shady, dense forest.

Another view. I couldn't find any information on the height of this tree, but the current record tree is 229 feet tall and 79" dbh, also in Idaho.

While I was googling for this big white pine, I learned that the state record tamarack is 142 feet tall and 76" dbh, located in the same county as the white pine display. So..... larch is still a candidate for our mystery log.

Anyway, I hope DaltonPaul is able to get a positve ID on his mystery log. This has been a fun thread.

 

[Ivan H.]

Last week I spent several days building a trail and milling wood at my family's property in North Idaho. The tree that started the project was an ancient Ceder that went over roots and all a few years ago that was 36"+ dia with the first branch at 25' - too good to let it rot on the ground. The wood from this tree is great - clear and tight grained but I decided to take a break from milling and continue the trail to the creek. While clearing a path, I cut through a log that looked like it had been dead for ages - no bark and a layer of moss. To my surprise there was minimal rot and it looked great so I decided to try milling it. The result was beautiful CVG slabs but of what type I cant decide for sure. I've attached pictures of the log I milled and a near by standing dead tree that still has some 6" think bark and looks like the same species (this one looks to have started out standing dead as well.) I think it is most likely Douglas fir but possibly Western Larch (aka tamarack.) There are several old stumps (and some butt sections I might try to mill) as well as several standing dead trees in the area that look the same but no living fir trees in the area and only one small tamarack that I can find. Most of the living trees in the area are Hemlock and Ceder but there are some spruce nearby too. Does anyone have an idea of how to tell for sure if this is Fir or Tamarack?

I'm Not sure What species you got their ,White Fir /western hemlock.That's what it looks like when it's milled,or it could be white pine,or sugar pine.I know one thing that it is good clear naturally cured lumber.

 

[Ivan H.]

The thick, brown bark on the stump looks more like Ponderosa to me. Or maybe white pine ?? -- it's been a long time since I've been up in white pine country. Obviously, photos are not the same as seeing it in person. If we could see it in person, we wouldn't be guessing.

The species of Doug Fir that grows in Idaho is different from the Doug Fir on the west coast. Rocky Mountain Douglas is not as big and the bark is not as thick. Bark is typically 1/2" thick, maybe 1" on very large trees (and 24" is large in 2nd growth). It is not brown, but charcoal or grey,. with relatively small scales.

Here's a doug fir in my log pile (the end is coated with latex paint, in case your were wondering). It's bark is maybe 3/8" thick. Yes, it is starting to peel in spots.

A doug fir next to a ponderosa. The ponderosa bark is thick and brown/orange, similar to the bark on the stump in the original post.

The cookie on the left came from a snag that I felled last fall, about 24" diameter. The snag still had all its bark, yet it turned out to be completely rotten.

BTW, I may be the only person in Idaho who refers to it as Douglas Fir. The locals go by its nickname "red fir." It is definitely Douglas, with the easily identifiable cone, but it is a different species than the coastal Douglas. Not as big, and the bark is thinner.

I wish I had pictures of the 50 year old fence posts that I cut up for firewood. Looked rotten on the outside, but the inside was solid and unmistakably orange. Doug fir weathers well if it can breathe. Lay it on the ground, or smother it with wet bark, and it rots quickly.

Having said all that, DaltonPaul's place is a 2 - 3 hours north of me, in white pine country. They get much more precip than I do, almost like the coastal forests, with moss hanging from the trees. Maybe the doug firs up there grow bigger and have thicker bark than my doug fir ?

Let's review the possibilities:

Hemlock -- boards could pass for hemlock, but hemlock rots quickly.

Cedar -- DaltonPaul has milled cedar logs on this property, so if the mystery log were cedar, you'd think he'd recognize it.

Doug Fir -- not orange like Douglas, and douglas is not especially rot resistant, though it weathers well providing it can breathe.

Tamarack -- boards could pass for tamarack, and tamarack is rot resistant -- but I thought tamarack was a relatively small tree ? ? ?

White pine -- they used to grow HUGE in N. Idaho before the blister rust came along. (One near Elk City is 219 feet). Known for long straight trunks free of branches. But what do the boards look like ? I didn't think it was rot resistant ?

Here's a stolen pic of a white pine. I've seen bigger.

A stolen pic of white pine bark. Looks like the bark in the original post, eh ?

A stolen pic of a fallen white pine log. I think I've been to this place -- in the St. Joe forest, between Potlatch and St. Maries.

At the moment, I'm leaning away from tamarack -- because it is too small -- and toward white pine. But there's no way to be sure just from a few photos.

I would go with,white pine too.Because of the blue stain in it.And good quality white pine looks clear with small knots.Like good oak.

 

[DaltonPaull]

Verdict: Western Larch

I brought a sample to Murphys chainsaw repair in Sandpoint and asked to mechanic (experienced with logging and chainsaw lumber making) to Identify it. He looked at it and said looks like larch, smelled it and said smells like larch and listened to my description of the tree (tall truck with almost no change in diameter) then said that it sounds like larch.

This confirmed my suspicions. From my observation this wood might be more rot resistant than Western Red Ceder. There's a tree in woods that was cut about 100 years ago (tall stump with spring board notches) that was left for no apparent reason and held off the ground by the some other logs that looks like I still might be able to mill. We'll see. Anyway I really like the tight grain of this stuff. It's right up there with the best Doug Fir I've seen (and payed up to $5 a board ft for) and even more rot resistant.

 

[mtngun]

Thanks for the update. I'd been tossing and turning at night, unable to sleep, wondering if I had to go through life not being able to positively identify your tree.

Supposedly larch (or tamarack, as it is sometimes called) is highly rot resistant. It's also supposed to be pretty hard. It's sometimes called "the other hardwood."

Since your original thread, I've found a handful of tamarack in my neighborhood. They are exceptionally tall trees, straight as an arrow, with no lower branches. The loggers harvest them before long before they mature, so the biggest I have seen locally is maybe 16" - 18" diameter, and even those skinny trees towered over the doug fir and ponderosa.

It's easy to identify live trees by the needles, which grow in bundles.

I'd love to mill a tamarack, but they don't seem to die of natural causes or get blown over like other species, and I'm only allowed to harvest dead wood.

What do you plan to do with your milled tamarack ? Decking ? Flooring ?

 

[DaltonPaull]

I'm trying to think of the best ways to use it - I'll probably cut a lot of it into 4/4 quartersawn stock that I can use for panels for furniture, flooring, interior trim or outdoor furniture. I'll cut some 8/4 stock too - maybe for stair treads. Some of the pieces are nice as slabs so I might use them to make benches or hall tables. I need to replace some parts on my canoe and might use it for that too. Sitka Spruce and Red Ceder are traditional Kayak woods - seams like Larch would be a good choice too except that it doesn't grow near the cost.

The attached picture is a book shelf I made recently from alder and black walnut. I like the way the alder looks but it's really too soft for legs and shelves. I'm thinking of making some more but using walnut everywhere the alder is in this version and larch everywhere the walnut is. Maybe I'll try something small first to see if I like the combination. Hardwoods and softwoods can look good together if you're careful.

Anyway I'm excited to try working with it.

 

[333.okh]

Doug-fir
Not all Doug-fir has the bright red center. Take a good whiff that will confirm it for you.
If you look at the boards that you have laid out you can see a red tint to the wood and the close up shows the red tint in the grain as well. Pine will not have that. The bark is defiantly Doug-fir. There is nothing there to tell me that it is not Doug-fir.

That id D-fir bark.....I work in those everyday. If you cut the bark with a knife lookt at the red and light yellow mottling.

 

[DaltonPaull]

I also brought in a bark sample to the saw shop and he said that is was larch and that Doug fir bark is pretty similar but "corker."