Moral conundrum.

[troythetreeman]

Recently I put in my 2 weeks over mostly what I would call personal reasons which boil down to me simply not being happy with where I work, how the company is run and where I see it going. One of the things that bothered me is the fact that they can not keep or acquire experienced climbers. Long story short, recently they hired a kid from Cabellas with no experience or background in the industry and put him in the tree. I made my feelings here clear with the whole company. You start on the ground, when I see you can run a saw on the ground and you understand everything that is going on, I will be happy to teach you to climb if that's what you want to do. Now here is my moral conundrum. They are only paying him 12$ per hour. I have too much respect for this industry and what I do to be OK with that. I feel like if I finish out my 2 weeks I am only doing that much more to help this company do this sort of ****.

 

[woodchuck357]

You could have walked, but since you gave notice I think you should finish them out.

 

[Pelorus]

Always try to leave a place of employment on good terms. Always.
Finish out your two weeks.

 

[troythetreeman]

Well, I gave the notice prior to learning what the kid was being paid. My notice had very little to do with the fact they wanted to train someone so green to climb. I didn't like it, I made that clear, but my reasons were numerous.
Putting someone that green in a tree is negligent.
Only giving him 12$ per hour because he doesn't know any better is immoral.
I have stewed on it close to 24 hours.
I have compromised my ethics in the past and know how it eats at you every time you're reminded of it.
My friend and I helped build this company into angies lists highest rated tree company in Minnesota.
He left a few weeks ago as well because of the direction he saw everything going.
Taking all things into consideration I informed my employer I would not be returning to work.
When I gave my two weeks I just wanted to move on, I had no desire to see the company fail as a whole.
If your business plan is however to hire kids and pay them next to nothing with no interests other then your bottom line... That's when not only would I not care if you fail, I sincerely hope you do.

 

[Gologit]

You gave them two weeks notice so keep your word and do the two weeks. Walk away with your head up 'cause you did the right thing. After that...screw 'em. If they're determined to shoot themselves in the foot with untrained people and Mickey D wages you've made a good choice in leaving.

 

[Pelorus]

What that company pays the kid is none of your business.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Giving your word and then breaking it doesn't look good on you.

 

[Toddppm]

Must be a reason the kid got hired. You think it's all about money and getting cheap labor, think about it form the owners side- see how much everybody bitches about finding good help on this forum? Maybe the kid seemed like a good guy to train from the ground up and they took a shot with him. I know a guy that was hired by Bartlett and started climbing with no experience within a couple weeks.

 

[troythetreeman]

What that company pays the kid is none of your business.

There was a time I would have agreed with that statement. After 18 years in this industry however I have come to realize placing your loyalty towards the boss is folly as their only loyalty is towards themselves. My loyalty is first to me and my interests, second to the guys I work with and 3rd to the companies bottom line as the last will generally translate directly back into the first and the second. If I stick around and help train an unqualified kid to do what I do for a fraction of the value of the work I not only shoot myself in the foot but I devalue everyone else who does this job. This sort of crap is the reason unions exist. All the bad that results from unions aside, people who just want to go to work and do their job would be a lot worse off without them. All this is assuming the best case scenario without talking about the high likelihood he hurts himself or someone else.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Giving your word and then breaking it doesn't look good on you.

My word was given contingent on facts known at the time it was given. I will not compromise my ethics for someone like that. A two week notice is a courtesy, not an obligation. I would not have been granted the same had I been fired or laid off.

 

[troythetreeman]

Must be a reason the kid got hired. You think it's all about money and getting cheap labor, think about it form the owners side- see how much everybody bitches about finding good help on this forum? Maybe the kid seemed like a good guy to train from the ground up and they took a shot with him. I know a guy that was hired by Bartlett and started climbing with no experience within a couple weeks.

My biggest objection isn't to the fact they put him in the tree on his first day. I didn't like it but I was content simply saying I didn't like it and leaving it at that. What I can not stomach is the fact that he is started out at 12$ per hour, lower then anyone else on the crew by almost half. This guy can't keep qualified help either. If you can't keep help there is a reason. I have no problem going to work everyday so long as the pay is there, I'm not asked to take asinine risks and I'm treated fairly and with respect. I don't know what to tell you, if finding help is a problem, change something, because finding an employer isn't.

 

[Pelorus]

Current minimum wage in Minnesota is what, Troy? $6.15 / hr or thereabouts?
The "kid" is starting at roughly double that, and has zero tree experience, right?
Maybe he will be up to $15+ / hr in a couple of months if he proves himself a quick learner and hard worker.
Maybe he will be offered some benefits or perks along the way.
I'm struggling trying to understand the "ethics" here, but I sense perhaps some jealousy or you feel slighted by the company owner, mebbe.
I've always regretted paying a groundie more than they were worth when they got hired.

 

[troythetreeman]

Current minimum wage in Minnesota is what, Troy? $6.15 / hr or thereabouts?
The "kid" is starting at roughly double that, and has zero tree experience, right?
Maybe he will be up to $15+ / hr in a couple of months if he proves himself a quick learner and hard worker.
Maybe he will be offered some benefits or perks along the way.
I'm struggling trying to understand the "ethics" here, but I sense perhaps some jealousy or you feel slighted by the company owner, mebbe.

He's climbing trees, it's a high risk job, the risk alone places the value of the work above 15$ an hour, experience or no. We aren't talking about flipping burgers, it's dangerous and it's labor intensive. If you stand by and watch someone do something you don't agree with without so much as a word you might as well cheer them on. I was not slighted, I was asked to stay. I know exactly how my two weeks would have played out. He would have looked for a replacement, had he found one, see you later Troy. If he had been unable to find one he would have then come to the table with offers. Exactly the same thing he did with my friend who quit. A guy whom I helped him hire the first time I worked for him based on promises he did not keep. A guy who had put in his 2 weeks twice, the first time he was given a raise and talked into staying. That guy is one of my oldest friends, one of only two guys I taught how to climb, a man who says he wishes he had followed through the first time he put in his 2 weeks and quit a long time ago. There were numerous reasons I decided I needed to leave and put in my 2 weeks. 12$ an hour as starting pay for a climber shows a complete lack of respect for the position and the people willing to fill it. I can not justify to myself helping anyone do that. This is the second time I have worked for this company. I was the only climber in his employ when he achieved his #1 rating on Angies list. I left for logistic reasons, it was just too far to go. So I referred my friend, promises were made both to him and to me in that deal which were not kept. I came back after both myself and the location of the yard had moved to work on a second crew. I could see right away it wasn't the same company, just the same fast talking guy in charge.

 

[troythetreeman]

Current minimum wage in Minnesota is what, Troy? $6.15 / hr or thereabouts?
The "kid" is starting at roughly double that, and has zero tree experience, right?
Maybe he will be up to $15+ / hr in a couple of months if he proves himself a quick learner and hard worker.
Maybe he will be offered some benefits or perks along the way.
I'm struggling trying to understand the "ethics" here, but I sense perhaps some jealousy or you feel slighted by the company owner, mebbe.
I've always regretted paying a groundie more than they were worth when they got hired.

Also, I have no idea what minimum wage is, who the hell would work for minimum wage?

 

[Pelorus]

You should know what minimum wage is, just for a point of reference.
In Ontario (my home and native land) it is currently slightly over $10.00/ hr (gonna get raised soon). So, by your reckoning, if an Ontario company hired on a greenhorn @ $20/hr starting wage, (double the minimum) the company would be unethical? Sez you? If the new hire is "on the books" and not being paid cash under the table, then there are payroll taxes, WSIB payments, 4% vacation pay etcetera on top of that $20/hr....being paid to a "kid" who has yet to prove himself.
See where I'm coming from?


edit: IPod turned "being" into "bring". Why, I dunno; it just does stuff like that.

 

[troythetreeman]

Troy, you have a dang good vocabulary. But you are too sensitive and you are acting based on emotion. If you care about that kid from Cabela's help him with the ropes instead of acting like a girl.

I sat him down and told him he was being taken advantage of. I firmly believe that to the point I refuse to in any way enable it. Had I not learned his wage or had he been getting paid something resembling 17$ I would have finished my 2 weeks. There is a lot more to why I was unhappy then this. Perhaps I am acting based on some emotion. I firmly believe if more people made firm stances based on principle the world would be a much better place. The only reason I even thought about finishing my 2 weeks is because its feb 5 and I know I don't have any real good prospects for work for another 40+ days. I had planned and budgeted for those last 60 hours or so. Now I'm going to need some side work or I'm going to need to go drive a truck or something for a while.

 

[troythetreeman]

You should know what minimum wage is, just for a point of reference.
In Ontario (my home and native land) it is currently slightly over $10.00/ hr (gonna get raised soon). So, by your reckoning, if an Ontario company hired on a greenhorn @ $20/hr starting wage, (double the minimum) the company would be unethical? Sez you? If the new hire is "on the books" and not being paid cash under the table, then there are payroll taxes, WSIB payments, 4% vacation pay etcetera on top of that $20/hr....being paid to a "kid" who has yet to prove himself.
See where I'm coming from?


edit: IPod turned "being" into "bring". Why, I dunno; it just does stuff like that.

I see where you're coming from. Yes, I would consider asking someone to do something high risk and potentially fatal for double what your least skilled, least motivated, least qualified members of your work force can make minimum, unethical. If you want someone green to prove themselves, then make them pay their dues, start them on the ground, give them the least skilled, least desired jobs on the crew. To put them in the tree on day one at a starting wage approximately half what the next lowest guy makes, the lowest starting wage in the history of the company, is wrong. It is an indication of the direction the company is going and a clear example of the regard the boss has for the employees. The company has enjoyed massive growth, doubling revenue each of the last 3 years and they project doubling it again this year. The more he makes, the less the people who help him make it are worth to him. I will not be a party to that.

 

[TreEmergencyB]

Company's around here don't pay a green horn 12hr I know guys who get paid that to climb daily


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[troythetreeman]

The reason we have such a massive gap between the white collar wages and the blue collar wages is because people keep working for them, there by enabling the gap to grow wider.

 

[troythetreeman]

Company's around here don't pay a green horn 12hr I know guys who get paid that to climb daily


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Wow... I love what I do but I wouldn't even consider climbing for that. How is it anyone with the skills and the tools to do the job doesn't just work for themselves? At those wages you're farther ahead working 3 days a month doing the jobs you can handle. You'll clear just about the same and have put in no where near the effort.

 

[Havana woody]

I think I would walk out the day the put a green kid in the tree it endangers everyone you the ground guys the homeowner and the companies assets . Its hard to keep good climbers but its harder still to work with a chunk of oak smashing your head.

 

[dieselfitter]

Anything less than 2 weeks and following through may be short sighted. If you are well connected and don't ever expect to need to apply/interview for employment, screw them.
If you were interviewing a prospective employee that had left previous employers without notice, would you hire them? Maybe I would but it would be for the McJob positions not a critical position within the company.