need help choosing a mini skid

[defensiblespace]

My company is booming and it's time for me to make my first investment in a piece of equipment. For the versatility, ease of maintenance and return on investment, I'm looking at buying a Boxer. I've seen lots of videos and read what reviews I can from other tree service guys. The problem is, every video I've seen is of these machines of flat ground. I work in the Sierra Nevada mountains and there is no flat ground here. 99% of the yards I work on don't have lawns either. Think log cabins in the mountains, not white picket fence neighborhoods. We do the traditional tree removals, but a lot of our work is forest fuel reduction, We cut loads of brush and trees 10" dbh or less, then we bring the slash to the road and either haul it or leave it at the roadside for the various chipping programs to come and chip it. A lot of the HOA's here have their own chipping programs, which are free for the homeowners, so I have yet to invest in a chipper. We also have to rake a lot of dry, woody debris and pine needles. We currently use a quad to drag trees and haul buckets of debris, which works great, but you still have to do a lot of handling to load and unload the quad. I'm thinking of buying a mini skid and am sold on the Boxer from all the great reviews I've read. My question is, how are these things on steep, rocky, undulating terrain and loose soil? I have a chance to buy a 427 for $12,500 or a 526 for $16200 with a bucket. Both are almost new units from the dealer. I've noticed the 427 has 2" more of ground clearance, which can be a huge advantage here, but doesn't have the reach with the bucket to dump into my trailer from the side without removing a side. The 526 can clear my dump trailer's side by 4" (this I figured from the height of the hinge pin, which I hope is how I should figure the clearance), but has less ground clearance. Pertaining to the attachments, if I'm moving large quantities of brush, will a grapple like the BMG be as good as a brush rake? Anybody have experience mowing sage and bitterbrush with a brushwolf? Any advice would be helpful since the dealers are very far from me a getting a demo up here is not an option.

 

[newsawtooth]

Defensiblespace, if you haven't purchased one yet...take a look at the Ditch Witch SK650. I do the same work as you in WY and CO on similar terrain. I've only used the Boxer on flat terrain. I have used Vermeers and Toros for skidding material in the mountains. There is no comparison. Even the smaller Gas Ditch Witch SK500 outperforms the Vermeer and the Toros. The diesel SK650 is a powerful capable machine for the mountains and I work around 7-10000 ft so gas engines lose considerable power. I've tried bigger skid steers and the Ditch Witch mini skid worked better than full sized Cases and Cats for tight spots and steep terrain. It will drag whole 10" to 18" 30-40 foot ponderosa with ease. Another thing to consider is a mini excavator with a thumb. I chip everything so the excavator is essential for feeding the chipper and can skid a lot of material. But for the most part the SK650 can access more terrain. I use chokers so I can't recommend a grapple. Good luck.

 

[defensiblespace]

Thanks for the info newsawtooth. I hadn't considered the DW before. I think I was turned off by its narrow 36" width thinking it would be tippy on steep terrain. I also have read negative comments on the controls. Hearing positives from someone who will use this machine in a similar capacity makes me interested though. I was really considering throwing down the cash for the new Vermeer 800tx. There is a DW 650 in craigslist here with 500+ hours on it for $12500. This sounds like somthing I should consider. Any advice on buying a used machine since these are completely new to me?

 

[newsawtooth]

They have narrow and standard tracks, the standard are 42" wide. The real selling point for me is the track length which translates into better approach and departure angles, more traction, and more stability. I've heard the same thing about the controls but I suspect that is from people that use them for dirt work and grading. They are still popular for building trails. I find the controls pretty easy to use even when hanging on as it crawls up steep slopes. I have flipped them even though I usually just go straight up or down steep slopes. They aren't really made for side sloping, not much is. But they roll back up pretty easily with a truck or excavator. It happens.

I have not tried the new Vermeer 800, which they built to compete with the SK650. I guess you'll have to demo the DW, Vermeer, and Boxer to see what you like. The motors are all similar Kubotas, but the DW maximizes power with their hydraulic pumps. From the specs though, there are few differences between the three. Truth be told the Vermeer is built a little heavier and claims a higher tip capacity and more horse power. If you try the Vermeer, I would be interested to know what you think.

As for buying used, the best advice I received was from a chap here who said to get the equipment looked at by the dealer with a report. Might cost a couple hundred but then you know what you're getting and can negotiate the price based on the repairs or upgrades that are needed. And that price is pretty good depending on the condition, they are hard to find for much under 16K. I just rent them around here since I only use it for a few months and they deliver which means one less trip for logistics. I may buy next year, we'll see how things go. Good luck.

 

[defensiblespace]

bought an sk650

Thanks for the helpful info newsawtooth. I ended up buying a used sk650 for a decent price. I've been using it to push snow around so far this winter and can't wait to see what it can do with trees once the snow melts. I have not been turned off by the controls at all, unlike some other people. I used to drive a Bombardier snow groomer years ago and the track controls are similar, so needless to say I was used to that style already. I would say the only drawback I've noticed so far is that it is a bear to start in the cold. It literally takes me around 20 minutes to get it going. I've starting to wonder if maybe the glow plugs need to be replaced, but Ditch Witch says its normal for those machines. They do have a ton of power though. I plan on putting a Ryan's Equipment grapple on it in the spring. I'm looking forward to seeing what this machine can do. Should be fun.

 

[a_lopa]

I have a cat 226B im very happy with it,wish i had brought one years ago.

 

[ArborquipSP]

I work at a Toro Dingo dealer in Sacramento and they have the kubota engines also but none of them take 20 min to start. I would have the glow plug circuit checked out. I would bet they are using some kind of timer relay to energize the glow plugs and it may not be working. Easy way to check is to put a test light on the glow plug wire and see if it lights up when you activate the glow circuit. Kubotas are a indirect injected engine so in cold weather they need glow plugs to start.

Scott

 

[treeman75]

I just bought vermeer s600tx and a BMG. I have just moved some snow with it, I cant wait to put it to use! I would call Dave at Top Notch he knows alot about the grapples. I looked at the Ryans too.

 

[newsawtooth]

Defensible Space, you lucky son of a gun. You'll have to tell me what you think of the grapples on the machine. I am envious. Kubotas are cold starting motors, but 20 minutes seems excessive. Maybe a magnetic block heater would help? They're a reasonably priced solution. You could always ask these guys or search their forums:http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-82.html. More geared towards the tractors but they geek out on Kubotas. The DW probably doesn't push the Sierra Cement like a Bombardier but it should speed things up in the summer. Did you ever get a chance to try the Vermeer 800?

 

[littlenick]

I would not get the vermeer mechine. Heres why, you can not control each track independently. I worked on a job when the ground was soft and it ended up getting stuck. I got it stuck because i was not able to control each track by themselves. I had to go and get a dingo because to get to the area was only 45" wide. Since then i have not been a big fan of the vermeer. When you get stuck the tracks act like a open diff. in a car, if one has more pressure against one side it will only move the other side.

I own a boxer and i love it. I have been renting mechines for a few years not and it does take a little while to get used to the controls but in the end you will love it. I have also used a DW sk500 and a sk 650, I would be worried about taking these mechines in rough terrain because the hydro motors stick out a lot on the bottom of the mechine...

I also have the BMG on it and it is a GREAT combo. AWESOME grapple!!

 

[arbor pro]

I would not get the vermeer mechine. Heres why, you can not control each track independently. I worked on a job when the ground was soft and it ended up getting stuck. I got it stuck because i was not able to control each track by themselves. I had to go and get a dingo because to get to the area was only 45" wide. Since then i have not been a big fan of the vermeer. When you get stuck the tracks act like a open diff. in a car, if one has more pressure against one side it will only move the other side.

I own a boxer and i love it. I have been renting mechines for a few years not and it does take a little while to get used to the controls but in the end you will love it. I have also used a DW sk500 and a sk 650, I would be worried about taking these mechines in rough terrain because the hydro motors stick out a lot on the bottom of the mechine...

I also have the BMG on it and it is a GREAT combo. AWESOME grapple!!

I just couldn't get used to the controls on my boxer 532dx. Hated that I couldn't drive the machine into a pile of debris while running the loader controls at the same time. If boxer adopts joystick controls like everyone else, then they'll have a really decent machine. Until then, I'll never own one again. Sold mine and bought another bobcat - this time the mt52 (previously had the mt50). Controls are great on the mt52. I also bought a DW sk500 and the controls are great on it too. I'm quite impressed with the power of the 24hp Honda in the DW. All around, it's a real nice machine and, while my bobcat is newer and in nicer shape, I find myself running the DW quite a bit of the time when pushing snow because I like it so much.

BTW - anyone looking for any attachments - trencher, augers, clam buckt, stump grinder, etc? I have a few for sale.

 

[littlenick]

Set the controls on the boxer up like this:

You control the movement with your palms and 3 of your fingers, use your thumb and your index finger to control the bucket and the arm. No problem running both at once, infact i dont even use my thumbs to control the unit.

Just like driving this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bx3753z6FU&feature=related

 

[arbor pro]

Set the controls on the boxer up like this:

You control the movement with your palms and 3 of your fingers, use your thumb and your index finger to control the bucket and the arm. No problem running both at once, infact i dont even use my thumbs to control the unit.

Just like driving this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bx3753z6FU&feature=related

Yeah, I ran it like that too but, the problem is, once you try to control both the drive and the loader hydraulics at the same time, one slows the other down. I'd be going along at 4.3mph (full speed) and touch the loader controls and all would come jerking to a halt. Or i'd try turning into a pile of brush while trying to simultaneously run the loader controls and the thing wouldn't turn. It got frustrating fast. No such problem with the bobcat or DW or Vermeer loaders - only the boxer. Mind you, I didn't hate the machine as a whole - just the controls. I still believe that if/when boxer adopts joystick controls and addresses that hydrauic drive motor issue, their machine will be hard to beat.

AP

 

[littlenick]

Yea if you run the bucket and the arm at the same time it will slow down, if you do one at a time you are fine.

Just saying for rocky, muddy, off road work the boxer is the mechine to use. You do not want a mechine that you cant run each track independently, if you get stuck you will be introuble. Also the hydro motors on the sk500 and really any ditch witch stick out pretty far and are also some what low to the ground. If he is working in rocky conditions something is going to bust.

If the conditions weren't too bad i would take the ditch witch over the boxer and the bobcat any day. I love ditch witches controls, i have spent a lot of time behind them and i love how you control the tracks on those. But i would be really worried buying one and taking it in rough conditions with out doing something with the hydro motors under the mechine, build a steel box around them or something...

 

[littlenick]

Heck just in this picture from forkster you can see the hydro motors.

 

[defensiblespace]

I bought an SK650 last fall and used it all this year. I added the bmg grapple to it later in the year. I must say it is a beast. It has cut down on my labor significantly and reduced the overall amount of time to do a job by almost half. The sk650 will handle some pretty rough conditions, but I do keep knocking the steel guards off that protect the hydro motors on the bottom of the machine. When I hit rocks, they tend to bend and fall off. I plan on having a welding shop fabricate something a little more heavy duty to protect the motors. I have also had a track come off 3 times and even flipped the machine twice. The tracks aren't so bad to get back on once you do it a couple times. Overall the machine has taken quite a bit of abuse in the first year and continues to impress me. Also, the wide, aggressive track is the only way to go in the type of conditions I work in.

 

[defensiblespace]

I also thought I would mention that I changed the solenoid at the injection pump and it starts up much easier now. No longer takes 20 mins in cold weather.

 

[thansen]

Good to see guys out there doing the same type of work. I've got a thomas mini loader with a BMG grapple and love it for the little projects. I found it used and got a real good deal on it, but most of the time our projects are bigger and warrant taking out the Bobcat T300 and rotational grapple. Your welcome to check out our web page and face book page, lots of good pics and we have some nice equipment. It's been a long up hill battle but fun to think about how I started this business with a old used JD chainsaw, a 1976 ford truck, wheel barrow and a rake and then look where I'm at today. Good luck and stay safe!
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[arbor pro]

anybody using the stump slayer or 38 special stump grinder attachments? I picked up the stump slayer model 30 a while back. Not sure if I'm going to keep it because I prefer my vermeer sc252 as it has a better view of the stump while you're working. I probably just need more practice with the stump slayer attachment behind my sk650.

Anyhow, just curious if someone else has more experience with one and if there are any useage tips you could share? Just trying to decide if I'm going to keep it or sell it. Got a vermeer 600tx 25hp diesel just sitting around right now so going to try using the grinder on it this weekend. Anybody interested in a vermeer mini or stump grinder...?

AP

 

[Dutch295]

After 4 plus years with my boxer (tl224, no longer made) I have no regrets. Reasons I bought it were, price, variable track for backyard tight access, (I didn't have the capital at the time and knew the bucket guys would eat my lunch), tipping capacity, flow rate for attachments ... this proved to be somewhat of a bad reason as the hydro stump attachment is a joke, I use a splitter on occassion for personal use and it will keep two guys busy.
I bring in a contract climber on occassion and the main guy he climbs for has an sk650 and he says it will walk the dog on my boxer... that might be so but we ain't talkin apples to apples... he's got a diesel (30hp I think) and I've got a gasser (24 hp honda), and his weighs about 400 lbs more. Mine has the azz to lift very well but the ballast could be a little better... we're getting ready to do a custom job which should help that. Controls on the boxer are a little tough on the fingers if you're constantly going back and forth with them but if you are pickng and moving then it's not a big deal. I use the bmg and love it.
With the slope of the land out there regardless of what you get you may want to think about some type of oil pump... I got a case of the dumb azz a little over a year ago and ended up buying a new motor (operated too long on a steep incline).
If I could pick one thing to change it would probably be the speed (be careful what you ask for ... I'd probably throw myself)... long trips from deep in a big back yard kind of suck a little.
Someone asked about it so I will share it here.... I have the 38 special stump attachment... came close to trying the multi tip wheel system and after a short conversation with Dave (Noordgard) I changed my mind.... I could be better at maintaining stump teeth which definitely isn't a reason to change wheels.... now with my sandvik teeth sharper than ever I'm running through stumps like never before and hell, I even enjoy grinding now.