Need help with apple tree

[Tree Machine]

TM, you are confusing wound closure with CODIT.

All the while an outer ring of callus tissue forms, more and more every growing season until the callus mass all meets, covering over the top of the site.

This very last part of the process is wound closure, and it is one part of the CODIT process, the fourth and final wall. I'm not confused.

I talk decay progression from a more fungal standpoint and you talk decay prevention from a tree standpoint. We're both right. Both events take place together.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Wound closure is the new wood growing around the injury, which as you stated, may take years to close.
Wall 4 is a chemical/physical barrier that happens instantaneously (in tree time), and is a paper thin line, not a wall of wood.
CODIT and wound closure are two completely different things.

 

[treeseer]

" This very last part of the process is wound closure, and it is one part of the CODIT process, the fourth and final wall."

TM, codit ends with the barrier zone, wall 4, laid down by the cambium. Growth after that which closes the wound is stricly speaking not codit. codit is a chemical response, callus and woundwood are anatomical additions. This from Shigo's A New Tree Biology, and has not been altered by subsequent pubs that I know of. It's nice to pick ANTB off the shelf now and then. God bless Alex.

Mike you're right, if the decay is sealed off from vision and the elements, it may still spread. TM is right that decay, when deprived of O2 etc, may stop spreading.

 

[Tree Machine]

Treeseer: TM is right that decay, when deprived of O2 etc, may stop spreading.

I haven't said anything to that nature, not in this thread.

Treeseer: codit is a chemical response.

TM: CODIT, as described by Shigo is a physiological response both chemical and physical in nature.

Wall 4 is a chemical/physical barrier that happens instantaneously (in tree time), and is a paper thin line, not a wall of wood.

TM: Wait, treeseer said CODIT is a chemical response.

You're being incomplete in your description, WHERE is that 'instant' physical barrier? inside the tree, at the surface of the tree, sapwood, heartwood, inter cambially, this side or the other side of the cambium zone. There's a number of possibilites, and if it is the 'instant' (in tree time) barrier, why is it the 4th 'wall'. Because it's the barrier between invaders and newly forming wood, this defense line is laid down AS the callus forms. Callus gives rise to wood cells (xylem), which are protected by the protective zone surrounding it. As Mike says, wall 4 is not a 'wall' of wood, but rather the protective zone sheathing it.

treeseer: codit is a chemical response, callus and woundwood are anatomical additions.

TM: I hope we've made it clear what you mean by this.

Biochemical responses go along with, and are cause for, the physical parts being laid down. As long as callus growth is ocurring in response to a wound, the tree is in the process of compartmentalizing the wound. When that process has reached a static state, no more new callus and woundwood are needed and no more chemical and phyical barriers are being incorporated, then the process of the tree compartmentalizing the wound is over.

Wound closure (not to be mis-termed 'healing') is the action of the tree laying down callus (callussing over) over the wound site to completion. This as Mike says, should not be confused with the process of CODIT, they are totally different things, but not so much as to say they're unrelated.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You're being incomplete in your description, WHERE is that 'instant' physical barrier? inside the tree, at the surface of the tree, sapwood, heartwood, inter cambially, this side or the other side of the cambium zone. There's a number of possibilites, and if it is the 'instant' (in tree time) barrier, why is it the 4th 'wall'.

Did you miss the link a few posts back? It answers all your questions.

CLICK HERE!

 

[Tree Machine]

I've read back through your posts.


I've also clicked there. I hadn't seen that site yet, thanks Mike.

Here's an image from that site. There's a bunch of good ones.

"wall 4' is shown here just beneath underside of the old edge of the original open wound. Why is that whole line not wall 1? Because 1 starts far more internally, a chemical change where there is no cell growth or cell die-back. the wood there is technically already dead, likely active in transportation of water up the xylem tubes, but rigid, structural non-living tissue. Wall 4, shown here accurately comes in at the area where wall 1, the initial injury response line meets nearer the original wound site. There, new cell growth begins quite soon after the wounding, but progresses slowly (in human time).

This wall 4 is in association with new wood cells being laid down near the surface site of the wound shows on the same line as wall 1, but where does one become the other? Where new callus growth has stimulated the formation of a new defense line. Wall 4 allows new callus to form right at the forefront of the decay. The new wood formation continues, fungus working away just the other side of this biological shield.

At some point, this wall 4 model segues into the wound closure model, which as we've all agreed upon. As I see it, wall 4 tapers slowly to nothing as wound closure blossoms to completeness, but that's in a perfect scenario. Nature is not perfect. Wound closure doesn't often happen to completion. It's a hit or miss, based on tree specie, tree age, fungal specie(s), moisture, and a number of other factors, the most important being wound size, shape and tree vigor.

Wound closure is seperated off at some point from the CODIT process because wound closure may or may not ever happen. The CODIT process, however, does. Biologically, the processes are not really seperate and distinct events, but science has seperated them to allow clear, distinct descriptions for we humans. I can appreciate that. Regardless of how we break it down, the trees defenses vs the saprophytic invasion of fungi is the game at work.

Can CODIT be successful and complete, and the fungus still win?

 

[Tree Machine]

The reason we don't have thousands of year of logs and limbs all piled up, even in an amazing place like the Hawaiian Islands, being born as pure lava rock can eventually have a surface of soil and humus.

Its when the fungus is trying to convert the wood into soil inside the tree that we take concern with it.

I found an amazing work of compartmentalization yesterday. Topside of a hackberry limb, shallow dish, held water after a rain and it had been there quite some time. The limb had to be removed because the squirrels had girdled the limb out beyond this woundsite and killed everything out beyond the woundsite. Noobie guy asked how I knew it wasn't the woundsite that resulted in the death of the limb. Showed him an epicormic sprout at the far end of the wound, and took my thumbnail, barely scraping the surface of the callus. Green, moist, alive.

I found this wound fascinating. It flared outward like a cobra's hood, twice the width as the diameter of the limb. Callus travel had seemed to have given up, theree was no wound closure whatsoever, yet CODIT was alive and well, for all practical purposes complete. Decay had been arrested, the decay column stopped at about 20 cm from the tree-side edge of the wound. I didn't dissect out the far side. I did a rip-cut the length of the wound on the underside of the wound. CODIT walls all in place, decay spread had been successfully wardened off, I was very encouraged. hackberry is not very good at decay prevention. A large number of saprophytes find that wood particularly host-friendly.

 

[treeseer]

Yeah hackberry sapwood can put up a tough fight against infection. Tough stuff.

I don't disagree with anything you guys are saying. Splitting some hairs, but it's all good. It's nice to see you boys playing together so well.

TM you gonna do some dissection and post the results?

 

[Tree Machine]

TM you gonna do some dissection and post the results?

I don't know if you can call them results, mebbe observations. Yea, I don't mind that, at least on this one. I rolled some video during that hackberry thing described earlier. Video takes me a long time to edit and post. I'll get up at 6 am and see if I can post it before work tomorrow.

I've gotta go share some Elizabeth time right now, but I'll process the video in the morning. I haven't actually watched it yet. We'll see how the new guy did with the camera. You'll get a chance to see the Power Ported 346XP with the 14" carving bar go at it, cross cutting and ripping.

 

[Tree Machine]

yawwwwn.

Ok, give me a little while....

 

[Tree Machine]

OK, I really must get to work. I'll post the actual cross-cutting, ripping and following of the decay column in 5 cm crosscut increments is yet to come. The video editing had taken me a couple hours so far and I have yet to do the compression and video transfer to a server.

For just now, here is a 2 second video clip of just the wound site. It would be cool if everyone can view this Quicktime. If you can't open this, go to Quicktime for PC's and do the free download (with itunes).

The dissection itself will be streamed and I'm not sure how long a video it will be. Not very. It's edited down pretty much as far as I can take it. I can put some music to it....know any good hackberry songs? Tunes about tree decay? The CODIT shuffle? The compartmentalization blues....

Click down there for the 2-second test clip.

 

[(WLL)]

Thank you Dan It just looked like lightning from my experience, which is limited.
Andy

more saw less jaw:rockn:

 

[(WLL)]

Hello I am new to the forum. My wife and garden quite a bit and enjoys trees very much. We have one apple tree on our property. I believe its diseased or at least part of it. I have a feeling we may have to cut some of it to save the entire tree. Can someone with experience please review the pictures and advise what to do. It looks like termite damage. Not sure what this exactly. We are new to the home and just discovered this. Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you kindly in advance.

walter

i would not cut because it could hold on for many more years i wood aerate and soil amend i also would feed tree with dry roots organic food with mycorhazz and crown thin heavy in late winter

 

[welby]

Thank you

i would not cut because it could hold on for many more years i wood aerate and soil amend i also would feed tree with dry roots organic food with mycorhazz and crown thin heavy in late winter

First I would like to thank everyone. Sorry for getting back so late. Great group of people here. Ok, if I don't cut, I could try what your suggesting but I'm not sure I understand what to do. I want to add that I was inspecting the infected area again it is somewhat soft when you press on it. We really don't want to lose the entire tree. I was going to cut as suggested by most. I don't understand the lingo. wood aerate/soil amend? Regarding feeding with mycorhazz how many applications? Once, monthly? Not sure what crown thin heavy means? Would you mind explaining. Sorry.

walter

 

[treeseer]

First I would like to thank everyone. Sorry for getting back so late. Great group of people here. Ok, if I don't cut, I could try what your suggesting but I'm not sure I understand what to do. I want to add that I was inspecting the infected area again it is somewhat soft when you press on it. We really don't want to lose the entire tree. I was going to cut as suggested by most. I don't understand the lingo. wood aerate/soil amend? Regarding feeding with mycorhazz how many applications? Once, monthly? Not sure what crown thin heavy means? Would you mind explaining. Sorry.

walter

walter, none of those steps will stop decay, which is now spreading into the trunk. You say the wood is soft, so you know it can not hold up the branch. YOu've got to lessen the strain at this soft spot. One option may be tying it up. This from TCI magazine November 2006, page 18. See how joyous the woman in the red dress is when the limb is guyed!

"Branches can interfere with pedestrian traffic and other activities, but removing them is often undesirable. On smaller trees, branch removal may create imbalance or exceed the safe limit on the dose of pruning. Guying branches upward or back can be an easy way to meet the client’s goals while maintaining good plant health. The spiral-wrap method can allow a 900-pound pull without girdling the stem or branch.

- First, tie a loop in the strap to the interior of the tying point.
- Next, wrap the strap in a spiral around the branch or stem. Use lateral branches to hold the tie in place without cutting into the collars.
- Finally, tie the end of the strap through the loop in a double knot. Slide the spiral wrap around until you see that the branches are in the desired position and that pressure is distributed evenly."

otherwise, the only question is where to make the cut(s).

"Measure the circumference of the limbs at the two black lines that Professor TreeCo drew for you. Then measure the amount of those circumferences that are decayed, and post closeup pics of those areas. If the cut is made further out, will the end of that branch get much sun? This data will help determine which cut to make."

This was my question on 10-25. Can you do this, Walter?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Could we see a picture from a little farther away. That would give us a better idea of how many living branches are on the limb in question.
Picture from a bit farther away will also let us see if there is a good way to support the branch with a rope or cable. They might also allow us to show you better places to make the crown thining cuts we talked about.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Sorry things got so confusing, we arborist tent to bicker amongst ourselves and forget about the homeowner.
Until you are confident the limb needs to go, don't cut it.
Don't waste your money on mychorizal fungi, or other magic bullets. If you are fertilizing the lawn, don't fertilize the tree, it's getting enough.
One thing that really helps trees is to do a lawn core aeration. You can rent the machine (it looks like a push mower) or hire a lawn service to do it.
The machine takes out plugs of soil and leaves them lay on the ground. It helps lawn and tree roots. Don't get too close to the tree and hit big roots with the machine.
Then get some bags of composted cow manure from the garden center and rake it around on the lawn. Some of it will fall into the plug holes from the aeration, some will just lay on the surface.

In the spring spray the tree for apple scab, or hire a tree service to do it.

Water the tree during drought.

 

[Tree Machine]

Very good points Mike and treeseer. The tree is in a state that can be termed 'progressive-degenerative', meaning the condition will continue and increase over time. To be blunt, there is no stopping or reversing the process at hand. Therapy, at this point, is supportive. The tree can live and, essentially, thrive in spite of its own condition; that is, until the limb fails under it's own weight.

So, supportive therapy. The guys have given suggestions, 2 main points which are 1) Preventing the limb from snapping off by the use of tie-back (arbortie, cable, flat or even tube webbing) and soil amendments. By preventing the limb from snapping off you preserve the tree's ability to produce it's own food by keeping the leaf-bearing parts intact. The soil amendments allow better oxygenation of the rootzone, better penetration and less runoff of water and increased nutrient penetration of the soil.

These efforts will not 'arrest' the decay but will lend the tree benefit by increasing overall tree vigor. Good tree vigor is foremost in the tree's ability to do well. Or maybe tree vigor IS the tree doing well. When (if) the limb does eventually fail due to the decay, the tree is in a better place, healthwise, to overcome that. The limb, if properly supported may never totally fail (snapoff) and continue to stay intact, live on and photosynthesize normally.

If the limb is just cut off, the tree loses a sizable percentage of it's ability to manufacture it's own 'food' (carbohydrate production; starches and cellulose). This is an immediate stress. As well, the new cut opens more fresh wood to potential decay. Double whammy.

It is by far easier to just cut the limb off, which I'm sure most would just do. But, this is to appease our human desire to not have to see a decaying limb, rather than truly addressing the biological needs of the tree. THAT is called mitigation. Pruning is part of that. Mitigation is doing what we can to strengthen and preserve the tree. Lopping off the whole limb is more an aesthetic choice, and at best, will temporarily weaken the tree. The tree does not want to lose that limb. The limb is paying its rent and contributing. Cutting it off is handing it a loss.

But the tree is going to eventually die anyway (as are all trees and all living things for that matter), so.... so, I forgot what the point was I was trying to make there, but the arboricultural practice Walter chooses will either help or hurt the tree. We, as arborists, are captain to those choices every day and we often just do what the tree owner wants us to do. Occasionally they ask us what would be best for the tree. If we're tree choppers, we whack the limb. If we are tree health practitioners, we look for options that will increase the overall health of the tree.

Great suggestions for this from both Mike and Treeseer. You guys rock.

 

[woodchux]

[off topic]

Good article there Guy.

 

[welby]

additional photos

Happy Holidays. Sorry for the delay with the additional picturses.

After reviewing them please comment.

Thank you all.

walt