Nervously helped my cousin drop a yard tree

[Westboastfaller]

Maybe you should go back and re-read. You qouted me right away. You also started talking to me about turfers (groundies i assume) and setting lines, which i thought odd cuz you know i'm not a tree service guy.

Back to this high step- if the face cut is lower than your backcut where does the wood break? It breaks in the same spot as if the cuts are level. At the back of the face. Unless you have fibers exposed in the back of your face how exactly are you getting more vertical holding wood..

When the fibers break as a conventional closes the tree is at angle to the stump. How much of a step do you need to keep that angled butt from slipping up and over the stump? I've tried this many different ways and in only certain circumstances does that higher back cut give you any slip back protection. Hunboldt or a block with a snipe are your best bets when the tree has a possibilty of slipping back.

Attacking me personally with you inner monologue is kind of a jackass move considering the conversations we've had in the past. Maybe you think you qouted someone else? You may want to re-read.

I had to rest and think about this for a day. I thought maybe it's time to pull the old classic "I know your are but what am I" or "I'm rubber and you're glue....what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" those are a couple of show stoppers right there.
It is said comedy is not prejudice and holds no bounds. There is areas I prefer to stay away from though. However I have a personal rule and that is; If my on line antics offend someone I repeatedly say bAby..bAby
I'm so joking. I always apologize.
My inner monologue was certainly not meant as an attack. I apologize if you took it as such.
I'll keep the rest simple



Some I talked about on the last post
I'll dismiss the reread comment and no comment on your step findings.
I'm sure I have cleared up the difference between holding wood and vertical holding wood so the rest I agree with especially the Jackazz thing

Never question the 'Koran'..its a form of doubting

 

[Oldman47]

The hinge or holding wood is only as strong as the uncut fibers that run between the face cut and the back cut. You gain nothing by having a tall hinge in terms of hinge strength, in fact you may lose a bit if the tree is not straight grained. The step is necessary because sometimes a tree top can act as a spring when the top hits the ground and try to push back toward the stump. By leaving a small step you give that tree trunk something to hold it away from hitting you as you stand behind the stump. Several things are done to reduce the chance of being hurt after you make your back cut. One of them is the step in the stump. Another is retreating at an angle to the fall direction so that a trunk bouncing back will miss you even if it overcomes the step in the stump. Another is bore cutting to set the hinge before releasing the tree to fall. This is mostly a technique to avoid a barber chair situation but also helps you set up a "perfect" hinge without having to chase your back cut.

 

[Woody912]

The hinge or holding wood is only as strong as the uncut fibers that run between the face cut and the back cut. You gain nothing by having a tall hinge in terms of hinge strength, in fact you may lose a bit if the tree is not straight grained. The step is necessary because sometimes a tree top can act as a spring when the top hits the ground and try to push back toward the stump. By leaving a small step you give that tree trunk something to hold it away from hitting you as you stand behind the stump. Several things are done to reduce the chance of being hurt after you make your back cut. One of them is the step in the stump. Another is retreating at an angle to the fall direction so that a trunk bouncing back will miss you even if it overcomes the step in the stump. Another is bore cutting to set the hinge before releasing the tree to fall. This is mostly a technique to avoid a barber chair situation but also helps you set up a "perfect" hinge without having to chase your back cut.

In my mind the analogy is trying to split a 6" long round of wood or a 24" long round of the same diameter. I can't prove it but when I am moving a tree past the center of gravity there is more resistance to the fibers shearing from each other. Can't prove it but that is what I believe

 

[bitzer]

I had to rest and think about this for a day. I thought maybe it's time to pull the old classic "I know your are but what am I" or "I'm rubber and you're glue....what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" those are a couple of show stoppers right there.
It is said comedy is not prejudice and holds no bounds. There is areas I prefer to stay away from though. However I have a personal rule and that is; If my on line antics offend someone I repeatedly say bAby..bAby
I'm so joking. I always apologize.
My inner monologue was certainly not meant as an attack. I apologize if you took it as such.
I'll keep the rest simple



Some I talked about on the last post
I'll dismiss the reread comment and no comment on your step findings.
I'm sure I have cleared up the difference between holding wood and vertical holding wood so the rest I agree with especially the Jackazz thing

Never question the 'Koran'..its a form of doubting

Theres joking and theres condescending ********. You can take the " you're not there yet and leave him confused for a month" and shove it up yer ass. Get off your high horse and have a conversation. Any time i read something like that i know there is a weak arguement to follow. Theres a few others that do that same thing on here. Now you're one of them too. We both cut on totally different ground and totally different timber. If you cut here for a few days i know you'd have some wtf moments and close calls as i would if i came out by you. Im sure you think where im at is cake, but a guy can get killed just as easily here. And learn how to post so everybody doesn't get so confused. You're not that smart its just that no one can ****ing understand you. I've stood up for you in the past. No more. Maybe thats why you can't keep a job. Its not them. Its you.

 

[bitzer]

The hinge or holding wood is only as strong as the uncut fibers that run between the face cut and the back cut. You gain nothing by having a tall hinge in terms of hinge strength, in fact you may lose a bit if the tree is not straight grained. The step is necessary because sometimes a tree top can act as a spring when the top hits the ground and try to push back toward the stump. By leaving a small step you give that tree trunk something to hold it away from hitting you as you stand behind the stump. Several things are done to reduce the chance of being hurt after you make your back cut. One of them is the step in the stump. Another is retreating at an angle to the fall direction so that a trunk bouncing back will miss you even if it overcomes the step in the stump. Another is bore cutting to set the hinge before releasing the tree to fall. This is mostly a technique to avoid a barber chair situation but also helps you set up a "perfect" hinge without having to chase your back cut.

You are absolutly 100 percent correct. I just do not find the high back cut has any real function in a production logging setting.

 

[johnnylabguy]

Theres joking and theres condescending ********. You can take the " you're not there yet and leave him confused for a month" and shove it up yer ass. Get off your high horse and have a conversation. Any time i read something like that i know there is a weak arguement to follow. Theres a few others that do that same thing on here. Now you're one of them too. We both cut on totally different ground and totally different timber. If you cut here for a few days i know you'd have some wtf moments and close calls as i would if i came out by you. Im sure you think where im at is cake, but a guy can get killed just as easily here. And learn how to post so everybody doesn't get so confused. You're not that smart its just that no one can ****ing understand you. I've stood up for you in the past. No more. Maybe thats why you can't keep a job. Its not them. Its you.

Westboastfaller and bitzer...
That's enough and it's all good boys! I've learned so much from both of your posts in this thread alone! U guys are both experts to this firewood hack on the side(I'd have to argue with you about laboratory science). You are getting riled up on details that would be resolved over a cold one in a minute if we were in person. You both are experts. Period. Thanks for the info and don't fret over details.
Like my smart/dumb cousin says:
"Life is too short. Don't sweat the petty things. Pet the sweaty things!"
(I think he was talking about women).
Let's have a beer. I'll buy the next round gentlemen!

 

[Dogsout]

I don't have a dog in this fight but it would be great to sit down with either or both of these gentlemen and have a cold one (or 6)(johnnylabguy your invited too). I only cut down trees after they or down because I am afraid of cutting standing trees and I really don't want to die cutting firewood. First to admit I know nothing about falling trees. A lot of the talk goes right over my head but it is still a very interesting thread to read. A big thanks to the people in the know on this board that share their expertise day in and day out trying to educate the masses.

 

[svk]

Westboastfaller and bitzer...
That's enough and it's all good boys! I've learned so much from both of your posts in this thread alone! U guys are both experts to this firewood hack on the side(I'd have to argue with you about laboratory science). You are getting riled up on details that would be resolved over a cold one in a minute if we were in person. You both are experts. Period. Thanks for the info and don't fret over details.
Like my smart/dumb cousin says:
"Life is too short. Don't sweat the petty things. Pet the sweaty things!"
(I think he was talking about women).
Let's have a beer. I'll buy the next round gentlemen!

Good post. Wbf and Bitzer are the two premier falling advice providers on this site and I enjoy reading their thoughts.

 

[johnnylabguy]

Well said dogsout. I learned a lot from my farmer, now 80 year old Dad growing up about processing firewood for heat. But also watched many a scary situation that could've been avoided if he had access to a resource like this back in the day. I've only cut wood less than half the time he has, but even then I've taught him a few things from the knowledge I've gained here. (If the old dog lets me. He does like my big saw for the big oaks!) Keep sharing guys. And drop a tree already dogsout! It's a great rush and you're ready for as much as you've read here! I love the whoosh/kaboom of a well dropped tree. I'm sure many others here can relate!

 

[bitzer]

Westboastfaller and bitzer...
That's enough and it's all good boys! I've learned so much from both of your posts in this thread alone! U guys are both experts to this firewood hack on the side(I'd have to argue with you about laboratory science). You are getting riled up on details that would be resolved over a cold one in a minute if we were in person. You both are experts. Period. Thanks for the info and don't fret over details.
Like my smart/dumb cousin says:
"Life is too short. Don't sweat the petty things. Pet the sweaty things!"
(I think he was talking about women).
Let's have a beer. I'll buy the next round gentlemen!

I've got 3 semesters of organic chem. Its been a while but i could probably convert some moles again. I was pretty good at getn precise measurements. Steady hands.

Yeah im probably a little out of line. It was a rough day at the job and when i got home today. Sick kids and im pickin up the slack while trying to keep my body from locking up. Dead timber on steep ground is ruff on the knees.

 

[Dogsout]

Keep sharing guys. And drop a tree already dogsout! It's a great rush and you're ready for as much as you've read here! I love the whoosh/kaboom of a well dropped tree. I'm sure many others here can relate!

I have only been burning and cutting wood for my OWB for 5 years and having my AARP card I am not near as nimble as I once was should things go south. If I had one of these gentlemen behind me giving direction I would do it in a heart beat. As it is now I have way more then I can cut now that has been dropped by someone else or blown over in storms. I don't think having a healthy respect for standing timber is a bad thing.

 

[johnnylabguy]

I've got 3 semesters of organic chem. Its been a while but i could probably convert some moles again. I was pretty good at getn precise measurements. Steady hands.

Yeah im probably a little out of line. It was a rough day at the job and when i got home today. Sick kids and im pickin up the slack while trying to keep my body from locking up. Dead timber on steep ground is ruff on the knees.

Organic chemistry still kicks my butt! Luckily, I have well engineered analyzers to do most of my precision measuring these days. I'm in charge of making sure they are still precise though which has its challenges! And on the steady hands thing, Quick tip from my younger days: do not run a pre-antivibe vintage chainsaw before working the hospital night shift to draw young children's blood. I blamed the shaking on too much caffeine!
You're both good men. Keep up with the good advice. And dealing with sick kids(worrying!) as I did too this weekend wears you out more than the hardest work u do. Sleep and work get the back seat! Get some well deserved rest!

 

[Woody912]

I've got 3 semesters of organic chem. Its been a while but i could probably convert some moles again. I was pretty good at getn precise measurements. Steady hands.

Yeah im probably a little out of line. It was a rough day at the job and when i got home today. Sick kids and im pickin up the slack while trying to keep my body from locking up. Dead timber on steep ground is ruff on the knees.

I hated organic but I can still quote Boyle's law when Brady deflates a football!

 

[Westboastfaller]

we did a little yard job yesterday, Mechanical assist on some big maple Cottonwood and Cedar. I was to do it myself but Andy brought his Dad back (shown in pic falling)after a resolved dispute after hiring me. Him been a production Faller on the coast through the 90's. He only runs saw a few weeks a year now. I came in to wedge up a Humboldt on a 5' maple while he finished cutting up the 200 pound slab. He ripped it in half then put my axe in the kerf then pried half out and took a quick wild left-hand swing at the right half before a had a chance to step back. Felt like he was swinging at my knee. I about ended up on my azz when I realized what was happening. The first swing was a hit thank God and we both have a look inside. We look at each other and I gave the nod and he said; ..."The old mans still got it...its just like f*ing! you never forget". Haha

 

[Westboastfaller]

In my mind the analogy is trying to split a 6" long round of wood or a 24" long round of the same diameter. I can't prove it but when I am moving a tree past the center of gravity there is more resistance to the fibers shearing from each other. Can't prove it but that is what I believe

True there is more resistance as the surface increases ...really nothing to prove there, I highly doubt anyone would dispute that. I personally don't see an advantage in conjunction with a rope as you are alleviating the back weight with your pulling source with some initial tention before cuts or perhaps after undercut if its a stable tree. In short, The tree is always supported by rope tention or its own fibers Like in its natural state.
In the case of hand Falling its supported by wedges. The easiest way for a Faller to wedge big back leaners is to cut a little then chase with your wedges. If not you lose your advantage. I have never had a healthy tree with good cuts sit back and break the holding wood even trees that have been dead for 3-4 years that are not punky hold extremely well and they have a lot less weight.

 

[Westboastfaller]

We both cut on totally different ground and totally different timber. If you cut here for a few days i know you'd have some wtf moments and close calls as i would if i came out by you. Im sure you think where im at is cake, but a guy can get killed just as easily here.

I have cut lots of Interior dry belt in my time as a matter of fact that was my intruduction to Falling. Black Cottonwood Populus Balsamifera; as you refer to it as Samifera ? an abbreviation from it's latin name. We have about three different kinds of Cottonwood that grow in both wet & dry belt regions. The biggest one in the world is right in my area in the Fraser Valley. Pines, Birch Aspen, Spruce, Larch, (Tamarack) are trees I have fell for year in dry belt areas. There is no North American terrain harder than that at home.
I respect you as a Faller and I have made a few admirable comments, however! the majority of guys that are fully broken in in the toughest coast situations would not give you any respect or be willing to break in an interior Faller. A guy can get killed for sure but no where close as easy. Four Fallers were killed last July on the coast and none in the interior dry belt regions.
I was going in for a shift in 2012 and one company had just had their third Faller fatality in a month. I prefer assertive communication over arguing, perhaps a good debate if thought worthy. Mostly it dosen't present itself. As long as one is not misquoted, after a rebuttal then its dead and left for all to draw their own conclusion. Basically I am not looking for validation like you. My seriousness is dictated by my interest. I'm not interested in going around and around ever.


~I've been up and down the coast so many times with the masses
The path we left behind became the inside passage.

You'd love to cut up in Alaska you're sayng?
Do realize IF you cut 'here' there's going to be training.

The chances of course, can be pretty thin,
For all that have tried and all that break in

It holds parellal to soloing a Chopper
It will take time before you fall a big whopper

You must be humble and quiet for any chance they call your name
Comming out of your wheelhouse will surely bring you great pain.
The alternative would be...
rigging the chain.

~WBF

 

[bitzer]

I have cut lots of Interior dry belt in my time as a matter of fact that was my intruduction to Falling. Black Cottonwood Populus Balsamifera; as you refer to it as Samifera ? an abbreviation from it's latin name. We have about three different kinds of Cottonwood that grow in both wet & dry belt regions. The biggest one in the world is right in my area in the Fraser Valley. Pines, Birch Aspen, Spruce, Larch, (Tamarack) are trees I have fell for year in dry belt areas. There is no North American terrain harder than that at home.
I respect you as a Faller and I have made a few admirable comments, however! the majority of guys that are fully broken in in the toughest coast situations would not give you any respect or be willing to break in an interior Faller. A guy can get killed for sure but no where close as easy. Four Fallers were killed last July on the coast and none in the interior dry belt regions.
I was going in for a shift in 2012 and one company had just had their third Faller fatality in a month. I prefer assertive communication over arguing, perhaps a good debate if thought worthy. Mostly it dosen't present itself. As long as one is not misquoted, after a rebuttal then its dead and left for all to draw their own conclusion. Basically I am not looking for validation like you. My seriousness is dictated by my interest. I'm not interested in going around and around ever.


~I've been up and down the coast so many times with the masses
The path we left behind became the inside passage.

You'd love to cut up in Alaska you're sayng?
Do realize IF you cut 'here' there's going to be training.

The chances of course, can be pretty thin,
For all that have tried and all that break in

It holds parellal to soloing a Chopper
It will take time before you fall a big whopper

You must be humble and quiet for any chance they call your name
Comming out of your wheelhouse will surely bring you great pain.
The alternative would be...
rigging the chain.

~WBF

You can kiss my ass. I have zero respect for you. You act like an all knowing jackass, but you really have no answers. You live in that box they put you in. Have fun with your tree work. I'll keep putting wood on the landing and food on the table. I know guys who have been killed too. Not something we usually brag about. You couldn't just have a dicussion. Good luck. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[TonyK]

Well that thread went sideways.

 

[svk]

Well that thread went sideways.

Yes unfortunately.

I hate to see those two guys get after each other. As I have said multiple times, they are the only pros we have who will willingly help out noob and amateurs with any given falling problem they post. There are others present on here with the knowledge but won't step up to help the lowly homeowner.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Yes unfortunately.

I hate to see those two guys get after each other. As I have said multiple times, they are the only pros we have who will willingly help out noob and amateurs with any given falling problem they post. There are others present on here with the knowledge but won't step up to help the lowly homeowner.

Thanks for your kind words Steve and your fine work with the site.

I like to assist with some pointers at times but sometimes it makes me feel torn. No matter what you say it's not enough. They are only words. Now the same words to someone else could be the tiping of the pinical pivot, a complete game changer. Others, I'm reluctant but I know they are going to do it anyway. That was my point earlier that there are different levels and if a pro chooses to play down a standard safe practice for his purposes that's one thing but someone with next to no experience is here reading let us not forget.
There is a certain responsible that goes with 'it'. It's like someone wants advice on a tree and ask "what would you do"? What I would do and they should do are different, let there be no mistake.