New E10 Thread...

[shome10x]

All,

I read with interest the thread about E10. Being in the EtOH bus...Rumor abounds.

Facts are this...

It does boost the octane of gasoline...
It is more hydroscopic than gasoline...
It is around to stay... Most midwest states are or will move to complete blending. Let's start getting used to it.

So, the is no detriment to running E10, but you will have to adjust. Always adjust carb tune with every batch of NEW mix. This due to mixing variations in E10 for resale.

Like always, never allow MIX to be stored in small engines. Use up the mix within 3 months from a sealed container, sooner in really humid areas.

Have fun...Chris G.:greenchainsaw:

 

[Lakeside53]

E10 - the "new" oil threads...

Adjusting the carb each time is not required... unless you are one of those guys that like to run the mixture out to the very edge... I stay with one top tier brand (maye that's the key...), tune conservatively, and never have to readjust...

 

[shome10x]

Carb tune...

OK...Let me be more specific. If it were me, every time I go to the pump and get "new" gas for mix, I'd adjust the carb. Blending is not as regulated as some would think. The blending mix from production to pump could be change by a couple of percent. In addition the economics of the blend could shift at any time. So...you can run a little rich and get by...but from what I read most on this forum is pushing performance. Like it should be....

cg

 

[Erick]

It's kind funny to me to see all of the E10 threads. I live just outside of Louisville Ky and the gas here has been E10 for about as long as I can remember (at least 15 years). I think we were one of the "test" areas for the E10 gas and to tell the truth we've never really had to many problems with it. It's been run in every engine I've ever owned from cars to boats to lawnmowers and chainsaws. Dad has a 1956 IH Farmall that has run E10 for quite a few years.... after the first carb rebuild, no problems. I think the trouble people are seeing now with the E10 have more to do with the quality of the gasoline that they're being mixed with.

I am seeing and hearing about a lot more fuel related issues in the last two or three years then I ever have before. Kinda funny how it directly corresponds to the jump in fuel prices and the drop in fuel quality huh.

I personally like running the AVgas for the fuel quality not really to avoid the E10

Just my experienced .02 on the whole matter.

 

[Erick]

Incidentally we started running the RFG (reformulated gas) about 8 or 9 years ago, wait until that stuff shows up at your local pump....... you'll beg for E10.

It was mandatory in Louisville at all pumps during the summer months. It was so bad and caused such a drop in fuel economy that people wouldn’t even buy it. They were going to the outlying counties to get gas or crossing the river and buying it in Indiana. Then the gubment made it mandatory that any county that touches Jefferson county had to be mandatory RFG. So now people just deal with it, worst part is we have to pay more for it.

I’m lucky enough to live far enough out that my county isn’t required to have RFG, trouble is all of the gas we get out here is delivered from the same distributors that supply Louisville so we wind up with RFG anyway.

 

[habanero]

...I think the trouble people are seeing now with the E10 have more to do with the quality of the gasoline that they're being mixed with...

I think you're on to something there. I've never given it a lot of thought, but since ethanol boosts the octane anyway, you wonder if refiners are coming up with the worst stuff they have to use as blendstock-knowing the final product will still be in the "normal" range.

Chris is also correct in that blend percentages aren't terribly well regulated. I would imagine, though, that a percent here and there isn't going to make a ton of difference on the carb settings, unless, as mentioned above, you are right on the ragged edge anyway.

One of these days when work slows down a little, I'm going to work up a quick and easy GC method for ethanol in gasoline blends. Then I'll just collect an ounce or two everytime I fill up and see for sure how much the blend is really varying.

 

[AZLOGGER]

Incidentally we started running the RFG (reformulated gas) about 8 or 9 years ago, wait until that stuff shows up at your local pump....... you'll beg for E10.

It was mandatory in Louisville at all pumps during the summer months. It was so bad and caused such a drop in fuel economy that people wouldn’t even buy it. They were going to the outlying counties to get gas or crossing the river and buying it in Indiana. Then the gubment made it mandatory that any county that touches Jefferson county had to be mandatory RFG. So now people just deal with it, worst part is we have to pay more for it.

I’m lucky enough to live far enough out that my county isn’t required to have RFG, trouble is all of the gas we get out here is delivered from the same distributors that supply Louisville so we wind up with RFG anyway.

Thats strange, the state of AZ banned RFG (reformulated gas) or gas containing MTBE in 01/05 (now that was some shi**y gas).
I don't know who is responsible for checking the % of ethanol in gas, but if it's supposed to be 10%, make it 10%. I have tested the gas here locally and found some of it 15% to 20% ethanol, (ok for cars maybe, but hell on outdoor power equipment especially 2 strokers).

 

[Erick]

Thats strange, the state of AZ banned RFG (reformulated gas) or gas containing MTBE in 01/05 (now that was some shi**y gas).
I don't know who is responsible for checking the % of ethanol in gas, but if it's supposed to be 10%, make it 10%. I have tested the gas here locally and found some of it 15% to 20% ethanol, (ok for cars maybe, but hell on outdoor power equipment especially 2 strokers).

Yeah I think we stopped using the real RFG (with MTBE) a few years ago as well. We still get all kinds of funky gas at the pumps though so we still tend to call all of that crap "RFG" even though it isn't. We have some that is labeled E15, we have had 83 and 85 octane at the pumps at a few stations all manner of other blends of every snake oil that is supposed to "better for the environment". Depending on which station you visit around here you can get about any octane rating you like 85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92, or 93 and all kinds of "blends" The most common being E10 at 87, 89, 91 ratings. Like I said I think we are some kinda test area for the EPA's latest snake oil, with E10 being the least of out worries. About the only way to get straight gas around here is racing fuel or AV gas.

 

[Toyjunkie]

Up here in my Canada we have had one gas company selling E10 for over 25 years now but it has become mandatory ( at least in my province) that all gas is now minimum E5 and most places are going with E10 ( that is next years standard). We still can get premium without any alcohol but who knows how long that will last.

 

[habanero]

...I don't know who is responsible for checking the % of ethanol in gas, but if it's supposed to be 10%, make it 10%. I have tested the gas here locally and found some of it 15% to 20% ethanol, (ok for cars maybe, but hell on outdoor power equipment especially 2 strokers)...

That's a lot more variation than I expected. I wouldn't have expected it to vary much outside the 8-12% range. There's no question going from 10 to 20% ethanol would require a carb adjustment-unless you were awfully rich to begin with.

 

[AZLOGGER]

I think you're on to something there. I've never given it a lot of thought, but since ethanol boosts the octane anyway, you wonder if refiners are coming up with the worst stuff they have to use as blendstock-knowing the final product will still be in the "normal" range.

Chris is also correct in that blend percentages aren't terribly well regulated. I would imagine, though, that a percent here and there isn't going to make a ton of difference on the carb settings, unless, as mentioned above, you are right on the ragged edge anyway.

One of these days when work slows down a little, I'm going to work up a quick and easy GC method for ethanol in gasoline blends. Then I'll just collect an ounce or two everytime I fill up and see for sure how much the blend is really varying.

habanero, here is a drawing of how I made my own inexpensive alcohol test bottle, probably not the most scientific test, but it works for me.


All of the Gas, Diesel, Jet Fuel, and etc is shipped by pipeline to Arizona, one pipeline from California and one from Texas, so I wonder if that is the reason some of the alcohol levels are elevated. Also as you notice my tester is probably not 100% accurate, it does help me find the Gas Stations with higher amounts of alcohol, and warn my customers not to buy their gas for mix there. I have only found 2 of the stations around here with higher percent readings, and they had the cheapest price for gas of all :censored: (you think they may be watering down their gas) this simple test will not differentiate between alcohol and water. The premium gas is pretty consistent at 10%, so I always recommend purchasing the premium gas to mix with.

 

[habanero]

... (you think they may be watering down their gas) this simple test will not differentiate between alcohol and water.

It could be possible there's water in the gas elevating the reading from your test. That type of tester will always be biased a little high, anyway, because some of the gasoline fractions are slightly soluble in water. But it still should be within at most 1% limit of error.

You've got me curious now, so I'm going to have to take a sample of the gas in my cans to work and shoot it to see what the ethanol content is. Or more importantly, how much it varies from fill to fill.

 

[tanker]

At least in Indiana,Ohio, and Illinois you won't find any Ethanol in the pipeline.All the Ethanol is trucked in from the Ethanol plants and 90% are automaticaly rack blended as it is loaded and the other 10% of the gas racks you have to do the caculator thing when you load it

 

[B_Turner]

I just tested local Chevron supreme and regular for alcohol ratio. I am not sure I did the testing correctly, as it's the first time I've done it and the results weren't what I was expecting.

I took a 50 ml scientific beaker. Measured in 5 ml of water, then added 45 ml of fuel. Poured the stuff in another sealed container and shook vigorously for a few minutes. Then poured it back into the beaker.

In each case (supreme and regular) the water line went back very close to the orignal level almost immediately and waiting an additional 10 minutes changed nothing. So the indication was that there was less than 1 percent alcohol (being conservative).

I was hoping the supreme didn't have alcohol, but I was expecting the regular to show some alcohol. At some point I'll test the 89 octane middle grade as well out of curiousity.

Any corrections on my technique are welcome.

 

[Lakeside53]

Chevron (IN KING COUNTY) is one of the few that doesn't have alcohol... BTW.. they have changed to summer gas already.

 

[Mad Professor]

When you said "scientific beaker" did you mean graduated cylinder (a cylinder with 1-mL graduations)? If so, that is about what the "test kits" for alcohol do. Beakers are graduated at ca. 5-mL intervals and do not measure accurately enough.

Be careful in the transfer before/after shaking as if you miss some liquid you will get an erronous reading. Try just using a cork/stopper on the top of the cylinder and shaking in the cylinder itself. Also when you take a measurement, do so from the bottom of the meniscus of the top of the liquid you are measuring.

 

[B_Turner]

When you said "scientific beaker" did you mean graduated cylinder (a cylinder with 1-mL graduations)? If so, that is about what the "test kits" for alcohol do. Beakers are graduated at ca. 5-mL intervals and do not measure accurately enough.

Be careful in the transfer before/after shaking as if you miss some liquid you will get an erronous reading. Try just using a cork/stopper on the top of the cylinder and shaking in the cylinder itself. Also when you take a measurement, do so from the bottom of the meniscus of the top of the liquid you are measuring.

I am not sure where I came up with the term scientific beaker. Brain fart I guess from smelling too much gas, and I think the word scientific was in the manufacturors label on the cylinder. I meant a standard 50 ml graduated cylinder, graduated in 1 ml.

I did not have a stopper on hand and also really wanted to shake up the contents, thus the other container (msr style fuel bottle). I did lose a very small amount, but felt comfortable declaring less than 1 percent alcohol as the water line seemed virtually unchanged. I did carefully use the bottom of where the surface tension pulled up the liquid in the cylinders as a throwback from my old college chemistry classes.

All good points you make, thanks. A very crude test by lab standards, but I was just trying to get a rough idea. I think next time I will try to come up with a stopper or maybe buy one of those B and S testing bottles that come premarked and with a lid.

 

[habanero]

I don't know if it's kosher to post ebay links here, so I won't, but go there and do a search on "stopper graduated cylinder". You'll come up with a guy selling cylinders with a ground-glass stopper at the top for like 5 bucks or so. That'd be the ticket for doing the crude alcohol test. Take care, though, when shaking the cylinder to carefully vent it every so often by pulling the stopper up a little while holding it firmly. I'm not sure how much pressure you're going to generate mixing water into gasoline, but I've seen ground glass stoppers turn into projectiles from volumetric flasks before.