New speed vs old torque question

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that didn't take long.
If you want a new chainsaw that will match the capacity of your 925, you will need to go at least 80-90cc. Avoid the advice to go with a PMM, the 60-70cc firewood saws. None of those will have the "reach". Think 390 or 395, that is what I would replace my Super 250 with.
 
You guy's all know my saws and favorites. When I got my 2101, and got it finished I was wondering if the 10,500 rpm would dissapoint me in comparison with my 13,000 on the 660. It did not one bit, even limbing the extra torque will hang with the 660 even in small stuff. In big wood it is faster. The 660 has a dual port muffler, and is stock the 2101 has a single, but big exhaust port, also stock. I run with a big 660 following here. Nobody throws out stabs or jokes when the 2101 comes out, which is often. They did at first until we ran in big wood, all even the strictly Stihl crowd gained alot of respect. The rpms just don't wanna drop, even when the bar is buried. Also our 660's are running 32 in bars, and the husky has a 34. That has been my lesson learned new VS. older, and torque VS. Chain speed.
 
Torque and Horse Power are closely related. How they relate depends on the application.

As mentioned earlier, older saws had different configurations, and often had less over square motors. The 3120 has about 2mm more piston width than a McCulloch 797, for example. This gives more time for the cylinder to fill up, and more time on the power strokes, but often physically relegates the engine to lower operational speeds(at least in most saws it does).
But the other reasons previously stated certainly apply.

And now for some basic physics...

Torque is the turning force an engine has over a given distance(not time), often measured in foot pounds or Newton Metres.
Horse Power is energy, or the ability to move a mass over a certain period of time(1HP = 33,000 ft·lbf/min or about 745 watts/.745KWH, or 550 ft-lb/s)
Or, the amount of force that can be exerted over a certain period of time. IE - the amount of work something can do.

'Force' and 'energy' are not interchangeable, a mistake many folks make. Torque is a force. HP is energy. However, both can be made to do work(energy). Read on.

Horse Power is actually very close to the amount of work a healthy draft horse can manage for limited time spans.

In other words, when it is stated that an engine produces "X amount of Ft Lbs at Y amount of RPMS", that is the actual amount of force that motor has at that given engine speed.

When it is stated that an engine has "Y amount of Horse Power at Z RPMS" It is saying that at the engine speed of "Z" the motor is capable of producing Y times 550ft-lbs/second of force. This is a measurement of potential energy rather than the actual force the engine is putting out, really. Well, at least technically speaking. Read on.

Horse Power only measures what an engine can do during a certain period of time. HOW it does it is hugely dependent on what it has to do, and what it has to do it with. In order for HP to be relevant, you need to find a way to 'put it to the pavement' as they say in the car biz. Or, in the saw biz, put it in wood. In order for a saw to cut wood it has to pull a chain through the wood while it rides on a bar and around a drive sprocket(the gear on a saw), and engage a clutch(the drive mechanism), running off of the prop shaft/crank shaft(this put's two 'simple machines' together, the wheel and the fulcrum/lever). All of this puts a load on the saw engine.

Now, to get that engine to do that work:

Gearing - gas/petrol motors need it. It turns HP in to torque(sort of like bending space and time... sort of). Saws are all about turning HP into torque(well, most petrol engines are).

You may have heard that DC electric motors can produce a large amount of torque. They do this because the power comes from a constant source. In this case, a direct current of electricity. Gas engines, by comparison, are driven by the impulse of an explosion. For a 2 stroke motor, the amount of time it spends producing power VS a DC engine is nearly non existent. It has a short, single power stroke for every revolution of the crank shaft VS the constant power pouring into a DC motor effectively nearly 100% of the time(and please for the sake of argument, lets not get into DC motor design, or brush configurations, etc). Fortunately, 2 stroke engines make math easy. For every revolution, there is a power stroke. If you have a 7 pin sprocket, it pulls 7 drive links per revolution. An 8 pin sprocket pulls 8. Obviously, an 8 pin sprocket requires the engine to do more work every time it has a powerstroke since it pulls one more link per revolution. The more powerstrokes a saw motor has for whatever work it has to do, the more torque it can produce. The more torque that engine brings to the table(or is rated at), the less gearing it will need vs a similarly(method-wise) rated engine with less torque. Thus a 7 pin sprocket allows a saw engine to produce more torque at a given rpm vs an 8 pin since the engine is producing more power strokes per revolution of the sprocket = more turning force= bending space and time(but not really). At 10,000 RPMs it starts to add up. With more torque, a saw may be able to cut more aggressively, or bog less often, and even though it is pulling less chain at a given RPM, it may be able to spend more time cutting VS bogging, or it may be able to hold a higher RPM in the wood before bogging, use deeper rakers, bigger chain, longer bars, etc etc. But this all depends on the motor. A 50cc saw will like to see a 7 pin most of the time. A 120cc saw might pull a 9 pin fine with a 36" bar buried due to it's torque; it may not require much more multiplication. Length of chain, bar, cutter type and raker depth etc etc play a part. It also may hypothetically explain why a 50cc saw that is ported may still have difficulty pulling a 32" bar through large timber even if it rates at the same horse power as a bigger saw like an 80cc saw. That 80cc saw may simply have more torque, and with the same HP it is able to apply more force over a given time period. It's all so complicated. But hopefully, now you understand a bit more about HP vs torque, and how a saw uses both.


Ugh, it's passed 3AM again. I'm gonna pass out.
 
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that didn't take long.
If you want a new chainsaw that will match the capacity of your 925, you will need to go at least 80-90cc. Avoid the advice to go with a PMM, the 60-70cc firewood saws. None of those will have the "reach". Think 390 or 395, that is what I would replace my Super 250 with.

:jawdrop: Please say it ain't so!
 
....
And now for some basic physics...

Torque is the turning force an engine has over a given distance(not time), often measured in foot pounds or Newton Metres.
Horse Power is energy, or the ability to move a mass over a certain period of time(1HP = 33,000 ft·lbf/min or about 745 watts/.745KWH, or 550 ft-lb/s)
Or, the amount of force that can be exerted over a certain period of time. IE - the amount of work something can do.

'Force' and 'energy' are not interchangeable, a mistake many folks make. Torque is a force. HP is energy. However, both can be made to do work(energy). Read on.

...Thus a 7 pin sprocket allows a saw engine to produce more torque at a given rpm...

....

Basic physics: Power is not energy (a mistake many folks make?).

Sprocket size doesn't change the torque output of an engine. At a given speed the engine's torque is a constant. Torque is force times radius. When you change the radius (sprocket) you change the cutting force that the chain applies to the wood.
 
Horsepower is power. Power is work (also known as energy)/time. As in 1 watt= 1 joule/second. 1 horsepower= 550 ft*lbs/second.
 
rpm

2 saws making the same tork but at different rpms. the saw making the peak tork at the higher rpm will make more hp.So saw manufactures do not have to make their saws weigh more to make more hp.Is it to make them run better or to sale more saws? Steve
 
which is better torque or rpms. i have never run any new high rpm saws. but i got a super xl 925 that has handled any thing i throw at it.
i am looking to but a new saw but dont know what to get. i am very satfied with that 925.

My suggestion would be to get enough different bars to handle all thicknesses of wood you cut and get enough Super XL 925s to use those bars and you'll be happy with whichever saw you reach for as it's a fine saw.
Igpoe:cheers:
 
Basic physics: Power is not energy (a mistake many folks make?).

Sprocket size doesn't change the torque output of an engine. At a given speed the engine's torque is a constant. Torque is force times radius. When you change the radius (sprocket) you change the cutting force that the chain applies to the wood.

Exactly. The engine's torque output is the same. The sprocket size changes the amount of torque applied by changing the relative distance/radius. But, the force is also multiplied by time as well depending on the sprocket. We can go on and on, but I put it in the simplest layman's terms I could. Most folks have a limited understanding of HP and torque atbest. Some have virtually none. It is very difficult to give a holistic physics lesson in the span of a few posts.
 
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I got a twenty inch bar and 24. for the 925. im just want to know how a new saw would compare to the 925. all the saws i got are old. getting hard to find parts. the reliable factor is coming in. i need a small saw to replace an xl 12. that was also sporty. it just wore out. it was probably close to trash when i got it.

thanks for all the reposes
 
Exactly. The engine's torque output is the same. The sprocket size changes the amount of torque applied by changing the relative distance/radius. But, the force is also multiplied by time as well depending on the sprocket. We can go on and on, but I put it in the simplest layman's terms I could. Most folks have a limited understanding of HP and torque atbest. Some have virtually none. It is very difficult to give a holistic physics lesson in the span of a few posts.

The science of physics is based on rigid definitions and it makes sense and can be applied only if you stick with those definitions. By trying to put it in layman's terms you've done nothing to help anyone understand the concepts--you've confused the issue. You have said that power is energy, and torque is force.

The bold part above is just nonsense. Feel free to use technical terms incorrectly in casual conversation (120 volts of current, 200 psi of force, etc.), but don't explain 'basic physics' by redefining it.
 
I got a twenty inch bar and 24. for the 925. im just want to know how a new saw would compare to the 925. all the saws i got are old. getting hard to find parts. the reliable factor is coming in. i need a small saw to replace an xl 12. that was also sporty. it just wore out. it was probably close to trash when i got it.

thanks for all the reposes

Homelite 925 with a 24" bar=Husqvarna 372/Stihl 441 or 460 if you want old school. Most any brands new 70+ cc saws.

XL12=You can drop 10cc with most any brand saw and still cut faster using less fuel mix and bar oil.
 
Homelite 925 with a 24" bar=Husqvarna 372/Stihl 441 or 460 if you want old school. Most any brands new 70+ cc saws.

XL12=You can drop 10cc with most any brand saw and still cut faster using less fuel mix and bar oil.

I'd like to see a 45cc modern saw pull a burried 20" or 24" bar faster/better than an XL-12 or (or a 48cc saw compared to a SXL-AO). XL-12 is 55cc and SXL-AO is 58cc. The 372/441 saws will indeed run a 20"- 24" bar faster than an XL925. The modern saw's advantage over a healthy SXL-925 shrinks when you run a 36" bar (burried) on the saws though.
 
I'd like to see a 45cc modern saw pull a burried 20" or 24" bar faster/better than an XL-12 or (or a 48cc saw compared to a SXL-AO). XL-12 is 55cc and SXL-AO is 58cc. The 372/441 saws will indeed run a 20"- 24" bar faster than an XL925. The modern saw's advantage over a healthy SXL-925 shrinks when you run a 36" bar (burried) on the saws though.

Husq 346
Stihl 261, impessive saw
Dolmar 5100, have not see the new version.
I do not remember the models for the Efco or Echo but they were in the 50cc range.

They all will walk away from the XL-12s wearing 20" bars, did not try 24".

10cc is a safe bet it can be more or less depending on what models are being discussed.

Most XLs I see have a 16-20" bar on them, most 925s have a 20-30" bar.
 
Vintage saws used full comp chain, for a lesser new saw to match bar length, skip chain is needed for they lack the balls to pull full comp chain. There are an endless amount of threads where a longer bar, by a couple inches, caused bogging and not just the mini motors (50-60cc) The 10 series and XL12s will happily pull full comp on 24" bars.
 
Another thing to consider is a curious phenomena known as the "power band".

Many highly tuned engines will deliver amazing amounts of HP and torque when they are in their ideal power band, but fall off badly when they are outside (normally below) their peak. Consider a formula 1 or Indy car and listen to how they keep them revv'd up when pulling out of the pits, and consider your old pick up with the straight six and three speed manual transmission with the shifter on the column (some of the kids won't recognize this example) but that old fart would still get the truck moving when idling around 600 RPM.

The modern saws make their HP at higher speeds, but fall out of their power band when lugged below the ideal RPM range, many of the older saws would still keep making power at much lower speeds giving them a feel of really having some pulling power.

I have some modern saws (036, 066, 7900) and a few old classics as well. Truth be told, I think I prefer running the SP81 over the 7900; no doubt the 7900 is faster, lighter, less noise, less vibration, but the SP81 really lets you know it's working...

Mark
 
Husq 346
Stihl 261, impessive saw
Dolmar 5100, have not see the new version.
I do not remember the models for the Efco or Echo but they were in the 50cc range.

They all will walk away from the XL-12s wearing 20" bars, did not try 24".

10cc is a safe bet it can be more or less depending on what models are being discussed.

Most XLs I see have a 16-20" bar on them, most 925s have a 20-30" bar.

None of the current versions of those three saws you mention are 45cc (or even 48cc). They're all over 50cc and within 4cc or so of an XL-12 (and 7cc or so of an SXL). I was addressing the exact statement you made earlier (regarding the 10cc claim)...............not a "more or less"...
 
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Vintage saws used full comp chain, for a lesser new saw to match bar length, skip chain is needed for they lack the balls to pull full comp chain. There are an endless amount of threads where a longer bar, by a couple inches, caused bogging and not just the mini motors (50-60cc) The 10 series and XL12s will happily pull full comp on 24" bars.

True, and a 41cc Homelite Super E-Z Automatic will also happily pull a 16 bar of full comp 3/8" (not LP or .325) chain, burried. I'd like to see a 'modern' 31cc (10cc under the S E-Z) to 41cc saw do the same....:popcorn:
 
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