New speed vs old torque question

[Modifiedmark]

I'd like to see a 45cc modern saw pull a burried 20" or 24" bar faster/better than an XL-12 or (or a 48cc saw compared to a SXL-AO). XL-12 is 55cc and SXL-AO is 58cc. The 372/441 saws will indeed run a 20"- 24" bar faster than an XL925. The modern saw's advantage over a healthy SXL-925 shrinks when you run a 36" bar (burried) on the saws though.

With a 36" bar buried in hard wood, my moneys on the SXL-925 over a 372/441 especially the 372..

 

[Justsaws]

None of the current versions of those three saws you mention are 45cc (or even 48cc). They're all over 50cc and within 4cc or so of an XL-12 (and 7cc or so of an SXL). I was addressing the exact statement you made earlier (regarding the 10cc claim)...............not a "more or less"...

That is were the "walk away" comes into play.

How about this, answer the question that was pondered. What new saw would you recommend to replace a worn out XL-12 and a 925 with a 24" bar?

A Stihl 290? Already outdated by 10years, cheap though but better smaller engined saws are availible.

A 576 and 7900 would make a well used 925 cry with 24" bars.

He did not ask about 36" bars and if the XL-12 is an old blue one with the 16" hard tip then he can choose even smaller saws then the ones I listed.

 

[homelitejim]

Good question. I have new saws and old saws, I like the new saws for the weight savings but really enjoy the torque of the older saws. My only real comparison that I am familiar with is my 045 super and 066 magnum, only problem is the 045 still turns respectable rpm's for a older saw, but both cut about the same with same length bar, at least it is not noticeable in real world cutting. I know my 4900 Poulan will easily pull a 36 inch bar and sling oil all over the place if I turn it up to high and it is only 77cc.

 

[NORMZILLA44]

The science of physics is based on rigid definitions and it makes sense and can be applied only if you stick with those definitions. By trying to put it in layman's terms you've done nothing to help anyone understand the concepts--you've confused the issue. You have said that power is energy, and torque is force.

The bold part above is just nonsense. Feel free to use technical terms incorrectly in casual conversation (120 volts of current, 200 psi of force, etc.), but don't explain 'basic physics' by redefining it.

Like I have said many times, I don't have a college degree, but do have a understanding of saws, and cut like a son of a bi###. If I said some of the professor talk was not over my head then I would be lying. I think WYK was trying to make it simple for guys like me. What is your sawing background, field skills or books? It seems like book smart guys get offended easy, when its not read like the book says to a Tee. But don't think a kick in the balls to WYK was needed either.

 

[Eccentric]

That is were the "walk away" comes into play.

How about this, answer the question that was pondered. What new saw would you recommend to replace a worn out XL-12 and a 925 with a 24" bar?

A Stihl 290? Already outdated by 10years, cheap though but better smaller engined saws are availible.

A 576 and 7900 would make a well used 925 cry with 24" bars.

He did not ask about 36" bars and if the XL-12 is an old blue one with the 16" hard tip then he can choose even smaller saws then the ones I listed.

I admitted from the get-go that the newer saws would beat the XL925 with the short (20-24") bars. You sidestep our contention that the XL-925 would work better with longer bars by going back to the shorter bars................and adding "walk away from" and "make it cry" type hyperbole for dramatic effect.

The guy's XL925 isn't "well used" or worn out. He wasn't asking about a replacement. He just asked a general question about how the 'new' saws compare to it. He said he was perfectly happy with the XL-925's performance. You also didn't mention the 7900 or 576XP (in the post that I was addressing). Just the smaller 372/441/460 type saw that fit your 10cc contention. Now that a few of us have brought up the length bars that an XL-925 is intended to run, you add in larger displacement saws? Are you going to throw in an MS660 next? Remember that Randy stated that if he was replacing one of these older saws (his beloved S-250 McCulloch in particular), that he'd step up to a 390XP or 395XP. Randy can correct me if I'm wrong...............but my guess is that he intended to mention a 'replacement' saw that would cover the same length bars as what he used with that Super 250. I doubt he was talking about running 20"-24" bars.

As for the worn out XL-12 (that the guy DID state he was looking to replace)........why do you keep going back to shorter bars? Maybe because that's where the 50cc (not 45cc which'd be 10cc less) new saws you mentioned shine. Of all the XL-12/SXL saws I have, only two came to me with 16" bars. The rest wore 20" and 24" bars when I got them. I run 18" and 20" bars on these saws for the most part. I'm playing with an 8 pin sprocket with one of those 16" bars for fun (a Windsor Speed Tip with a sharp loop of chisel).

I also wasn't saying anyhing against him replacing the XL-12 with one of the 50cc wondersaws. I get the feeling you misunderstood me, based on your "what would you recomend to replace a worn out XL-12" question. A new MS290/455/460 type consumer saw would do the job just fine for him. So would a good used 026/MS260/346XP/5100 saw. Neither type floats my boat. I run XL-12/SXL/PM700 saws with 20-24" bars and Super E-Z's with 16" bars. Not everybody is an AS "gotta have the latest and greatest" kind of person.

Again, I was just addressing your "You can drop 10cc with most any brand saw" claim in regards to the XL-12. Show me a 45cc saw that will "still cut faster using less fuel mix and bar oil" than an XL-12 when running a the range of bars (burried) that an XL-12 will run. Not talking 12" cottonwood cants or 6" sticks. That's all I asked in the first place, and all I ask now. While you're at it.........show me a 'modern' 31c saw that will run a 16" bar of full comp 3/8" chain (not LoPro) as well as a 41cc Homelite Super E-Z. Heck, show me a modern 41cc saw that will do it...

 

[Justsaws]

4218 Poulan=XL-12, I have done the comparision. You will not like it, or believe it but the 4218 will best an XL-12. Oddly enough I will most likely get to do this again for a couple of friends who do not play well together. Ex-Homelite dealer versus Poulan fanatic.

How about these?

Homelite Zip(77cc) legendary vertical cylinder power versus Dolmar 6400, 24" bars? I have done this comparision. I own 3 Zips, currently zero 6400s. I did have to install NOS spark arrestors and covers to the Zips for fairness. Compared 365s as well. David Bradleys? How about the Lomabard Commango versus a 361 with 20" bars? Homelite 410? Fellow paid $200.00 for that NOS Lombard, it was nice, wish I had found it first.

Cannot think of a current 31cc rear handle but the 34cc Dolmar and Stihl handed a very nice dealer demo Super EZ it's rear handle in 16" wood. When I gave the saws back to the dealer, he shrugged. Said it was about time, I agreed and was surpised.

If it makes you feel better than I will say that a person should feel comfortable dropping at least 10% of the antique saws advertised displacement or up to 10cc sometimes more depending on what is being compared.

When folks ask I say 10ccs, nobody has come back to complain yet. If I have what they are interested in I will let them give it a try. The newest saws I almost never have access to anymore.

There are some exceptions, the 100cc range is currently very iffy. As my newest 660 is not anywhere as strong as the last 2100 Husq and the 385 is certainly no replacement for my 2094s.
Saws with "BP" on the sticker, wish people would stop posting about them.
Not sure about the 125s being compared to the 3120, I choose the 125s, but I suppose others would chose the 3120s.

 

[Eccentric]

4218 Poulan=XL-12, I have done the comparision. You will not like it, or believe it but the 4218 will best an XL-12. Oddly enough I will most likely get to do this again for a couple of friends who do not play well together. Ex-Homelite dealer versus Poulan fanatic.

How about these?

Homelite Zip(77cc) legendary vertical cylinder power versus Dolmar 6400, 24" bars? I have done this comparision. I own 3 Zips, currently zero 6400s. I did have to install NOS spark arrestors and covers to the Zips for fairness. Compared 365s as well. David Bradleys? How about the Lomabard Commango versus a 361 with 20" bars? Homelite 410? Fellow paid $200.00 for that NOS Lombard, it was nice, wish I had found it first.

Cannot think of a current 31cc rear handle but the 34cc Dolmar and Stihl handed a very nice dealer demo Super EZ it's rear handle in 16" wood. When I gave the saws back to the dealer, he shrugged. Said it was about time, I agreed and was surpised.

If it makes you feel better than I will say that a person should feel comfortable dropping at least 10% of the antique saws advertised displacement or up to 10cc sometimes more depending on what is being compared.

When folks ask I say 10ccs, nobody has come back to complain yet. If I have what they are interested in I will let them give it a try. The newest saws I almost never have access to anymore.

There are some exceptions, the 100cc range is currently very iffy. As my newest 660 is not anywhere as strong as the last 2100 Husq and the 385 is certainly no replacement for my 2094s.
Saws with "BP" on the sticker, wish people would stop posting about them.
Not sure about the 125s being compared to the 3120, I choose the 125s, but I suppose others would chose the 3120s.

I keep refering to the 10cc claim that you made, along with my contention that those smaller saws would loose their advantage WHEN RUNNING THE SAME LENGTH BARS in THE SAME WOOD DIAMETER that the 'vintage' saws could handle. You keep avoiding that whole question with vague "they will walk away from", "you won't like it or believe it", and "will best an" statements. Why won't you address my question? Saying that you've seen the vintage saws with shorter bars isn't addressing it. I'm NOT saying that the new saws aren't faster in the smaller wood. Again, I ADMITTED right off the bat that the XL925 wouldn't be as fast as the 441/372 in smaller wood, with smaller bars. You NEVER have addressed what I said about those saws loosing their advantage WHEN RUNNING LONG BARS IN BIG WOOD. You instead just continue on and mention yet more saws (presumeably tested in small wood), without ever addressing my question.

In your Poulan/Homelite comparison, were the saws in comparable condition (meaning the Homelite wasn't clapped out)? Were the saws both running similar full comp 3/8" chain on 20-24" bars? Did you cut wood that was bar length (meaning did you bury the bars)? I highly doubt it. Most likely cutting small diameter stuff and/or cants. A 346XP can cut through a six inch stick as fast as a 3120. Does that prove anything? Slap a 48" bar on both of 'em and bury the suckers...

The Dolmar 6400/Zip comparison using 24" bars (my guess is once again cutting smaller than bar length wood) is meaningless too. A Zip will run a 30" bar of full comp .404 chain. Did you cut a 30" diameter log in your tests, using similar chains and bars? I highly doubt it. I doubt the Zip had anything other than OLD chipper chain. The 6400 probably had chisel..............and you were probably cutting 12" or so wood. All assumptions to be sure, but I'll be shocked if I'm way off the mark here. Also, A Zip was never a speedster, even in its day. A better 64/74cc new/old comparison would have been the 6400 and a Poulan 245A. A strong running 245A will run a 28" bar wearing full comp 3/8" chain..........burried. No way will a 6400 "walk away" from the 245A in that comparison. The 245A also weighs less than a 6400 (PHO to PHO comparison)!

I have no Idea what your point was in your Super EZ demo paragraph. I just plain didn't understand you. Are you saying you actually ran a 34cc Stihl against a healthy (again not clapped out) Super E-Z automatic in 16" wood? Both wearing full comp 3/8" (not LP) chain of similar type/sharpness (like I asked earlier)? I doubt that.

You wish people would stop posting about "saws with BP on the sticker"? Why? Far far less people post about those great old 98cc saws on AS than the small wood/cant/cookie cutting 346XP/MS261 worshipers do. Have you compared your MS660 to a strong running BP655 in big wood with long bars? I doubt it. I do agree with you on one thing. I'd chose an SP125 over a 3120XP any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.


I believe we're having parallel arguements, and there's no point in continuing. You're avoiding my questions, and I'm done going round and round. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. It's obvious that you're not going to get my point or address my contentions. You can't get beyond "a 346 is faster than an XL12" in you head. My points and questions regarding larger wood (within the XL-12's range) just aren't even sinking in. I'm done beating my head against the wall, expecting something to happen other than me getting a headache.......:jester:

 

[MCW]

I'd chose an SP125 over a 3120XP any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

I'd probably like to run one once on Saturday and twice on Sunday too.
Not so sure about ALL Saturday and ALL Sunday though
That is where you start to appreciate modern saws. Not trying to be rude but if these old saws are as good as some people claim (not just the odd blast here and there but sustained use) then everybody would still be running them. I love certain old saws (Solo Twin for example) but only because of their sound and the nostalgia appeal. I've also been very very surprised at the power output of some of these old saws. For example some of Wayne's (gmax's) old McCullochs, Stihls, and his old Solo are weapons but would I use one all day felling when a 390XP or Dolmar 7900 is sitting there? Pass...

 

[ncsawguy]

i just want to say thanks for all the comments. i didnt mean to start an arguement. i am looking at stihl 362 or the smaller 261. i also thought about the 440,or 441 with a 20 inch bar. thats gives me an 25 inch option also.

the xl-12 is fine for me. it just wore out. it was used in the woods before i got it. so it lasted this long is surprising. it has the 16 inch hard nose bar. which iis good enough for me.

if i need to go bigger i got the xl 925 with 24 sprocket nose bar. which still has chrome on the muffler and runs strong and has tons of compression.

if i need bigger than that i got a stihl 070 that has a 36 inch bar.

but along with big wood come more weight and i dont have the equipment to mess with big wood. im just looking for a general saw the is a liitle bit more user friendly and when things break i can get parts for it. my main use would be for firewood and land clearing. mostly firewood. but im known with all my friends to have saws. i do alot for people and depend on them. the one i got now are old and worn out. dont really know if they are going to run or not. im just looking for more dependable saw. mostly oak and hickory i use for firewood,

thanks for everyone comments

 

[RandyMac]

If you are happy with the XL12, find a better one and save a bunch of money.

They made millions, finding a good one shouldn't be tough
Homelite XL-12 Chainsaw | eBay

 

[promac850]

Ah... the ol' "old vs. new" debate...

I vote old. I like torque...

Kinda like the ugly bastard of a saw known as a '610'... many hate these saws, but you know what, they'll pull 28" bars in hardwood no problem. Try that with a new 60cc saw like a Husky or Stihl. It'd be bogging down all the time. I know a guy with an MS310 and it isn't all that impressive. Screams and cuts fast, but when it comes to bucking up 25-27" maple logs, I bet it'd have trouble pulling 3/8" full comp.

Not to mention they take abuse much better...

The 850, on the other hand... is a whole 'nother ball game... 610 don't even hold a candle to it, even if they had made it in the same cc class...

 

[Eccentric]

I'd probably like to run one once on Saturday and twice on Sunday too.
Not so sure about ALL Saturday and ALL Sunday though
That is where you start to appreciate modern saws. Not trying to be rude but if these old saws are as good as some people claim (not just the odd blast here and there but sustained use) then everybody would still be running them. I love certain old saws (Solo Twin for example) but only because of their sound and the nostalgia appeal. I've also been very very surprised at the power output of some of these old saws. For example some of Wayne's (gmax's) old McCullochs, Stihls, and his old Solo are weapons but would I use one all day felling when a 390XP or Dolmar 7900 is sitting there? Pass...

I never said the old saws were better for sustained, day in and day out production work. In fact, I've said just the opposite (in other threads). AV, weight savings, and parts availability should all be taken into consideration. For that reason, the new saws are the logical choice for that sort of use. I was only addressing one specific claim (10cc smaller modern saws will "walk away" from the vintage saws) made by one specific individual. Period. Nothing at all to do with the old saws being "as good as some people claim" or other such nonsense....