New wood stove lack of burn,water in iron walls?

[RCR 3 EVER]

We replaced our inefficient and smoky woodstove at the cabin with an Alderlea T5 early November. So far we are not impressed and almost wish we could send it back.

Brochure says 70% effic. It is more like 35% and not the 72,000BTU but more like 35,000. The logs load in end wise front to back and burn only the first 6" at a time. The burn eventually gets to the back but only when the front goes to ember stage.

The glass is constantly coated with black soot on edges.

Embers never burn down to a grey ash, in fact at the back of firebox the wood remains in a cinder form. A hard black ember that may be warm in middle but not burning unless you really pound it with a poker letting the sparks fly in the process.

When installed the installer stated we had very good dry wood since he tested several pieces for moisture. He threw in a bunch of pressed wood for starters along with our wood to let the fire rip. He then told family how to use fireplace, temps such as getting it up to 1000 degrees and then giving a gage that went up to 800. Bricks should change to natural color before turning damper down, etc.

The next day we went to check on excessive level of embers and found huge hard black pieces of warm but intact pressed wood under embers. We even found kindling still intact under the embers.see cinders picture.

The company then said we need to cure the iron and bricks of the moisture that is inside of them. (I should of asked them if that is why cars rust but did not think of it in time).
To do this we need to before each season constantly burn at HI wide open for 24 hours or more a full load of wood at all times. I know about curing the stove of paint and dust etc and it smells for a bit, but that sounded ridiculous. Besides It was only 40 degrees we needed fans and all windows open to stay cool. They said it was NOT designed for mild weather and did not draft as well. Too bad for you guys heating your homes with this stove!

After hi heat cycle we had a depth of 5+ inches of 1"-4" embers and could not put wood in and burned our ash bucket, stove interior was turning red. Logs burned on top with a full load but when we turned down the damper finally,logs still burned at front only. We were told to keep burning at HI, and to stir and break up the larger embers. This caused dangerous sparks to fly out the door! the lady said she would call us back, she NEVER did.
It also takes long time for new kindling to even start up, it just glows & smokes first.

The chimney only got up to about 350 degrees 18 inches above the stove. The chimney specs are a 6" double wall pipe extends vertical about 4ft up from stove, then back horizontal about 3ft. It fits into the exterior chimney which is of cinder block with a 7" square steel insert. The chimney from base of fireplace to top is 16'9"

With only half the heat output we surely won't get overheated but in very cold weather we won't get warm either in back bedrooms.
The concealed cook top should remain that way-concealed, it does not even boil water at less than 200 degrees
We were advised we do not need a cold air supply, but I think it would help? No air is getting to rear of firebox!
Any ideas or suggestions besides returning it which is not possible.

My fireplace at our house is a dream compared to this monstrosity.

Front view:

Side view:

Cinders Large cinders are from pressed wood that would not break apart with a poker:

Finally the small kindling from rear of firebox that did not burn UNDER the embers:

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

All Windows wide open at 30 degrees

In this image it was 30 degrees outside- fire roaring wide open damper, glass smoky, all the windows wide open and some fans on to get cool air inside. You can see the smoke on the glass despite the roaring fire and HOT temps in firebox. The steel was even glowing red near baffle.
Yet when we put in a fresh load of wood in stove it just smoked and glowed at edges of bark and kindling or even paper until we used a match even with 5 inches of embers. Something is wrong with air supply?

 

[cedarman]

looks like to me your starving for air and running rich. you say the stove didnt come with dampers in the front to let air in? thats probably your problem. in order to make a hot fire you need air.

is your chimney up high enough to make a draft?

hope u didnt junk the old one

 

[laynes69]

It sounds like draft is one of the issues, but I think one of your main problems is your running the draft wide open to try to heat with the stove. You never run a EPA stove wide open to try to heat. You load the stove, get it good and hot where you start to see secondary combustion, then back it down in a couple of stages. They burn 100% different than the stoves from years ago. Its not something that you will get right away. Once you have a good hot firebox and that damper closes, you will get a light show and you will have good long hot burns. Your flue temps will drop as the stove top increases. If you need to run the stove with the air controls open, either your wood isn't seasoned properly, or you have draft issues. DId you measure the 350 on the surface of the double wall flue, or internal. And do you have a thermometer for the stove?
I see you posted on hearth, a bunch of good people there to help also. Don't get discouraged, they take some getting used to, but once you do you won't go back.

 

[Wife'nHubby]

Looks/sounds like your wood is not as seasoned as you might think/were told.

Wood can 'test' dry on the outside but may be be seasoned enough on the inside. Did your installer check the moisture content on the inside of a re-split piece of firewood? How long has your wood been cut/split/stacked? A standing dead tree doesn't season until cut/split/stacked and then it takes 6 month to one year to season fully (normally). The new EPA stoves demand fully seasoned firewood.

Get thee to a grocery store/convenience store/gas station and buy some of their wood - just a bundle or two. Burn that and report back.

Shari

 

[applefarmer]

I think you have a draft issue or your wood is not dry enough for a epa stove. Your glass should not soot up if you are getting enough air. I do not know where this stove gets it air or the mechanics of the draft control but I would look there. I also question the recomendations the dealer gave you about running a NEW (epa?) stove wide open. When we installed my lennox epa fireplace I was told to break it in easy to "cure" the firebrick. I was also told not to expect full heat output for the first few fires until the moisture was out of the brick.

My procedure is to start a fast wide open fire then shut the combustion air way down to get a secondary burn. Once it is there it is in auto pilot. Don't give up once you get it figured out you will love it.

Going back to the wood, these stoves will not work unless your wood is DRY!

 

[Highbeam]

Measuring the outside temps of a double wall pipe won't tell you dik about what your actual flue temps are. Buy and install a probe meter from condar as well as a surface meter for the stove.

Your chimney is very short and the least desirable type, an outside masonry chimney. Draft will suffer as a result.

Running the stove with draft wide open is not the way to heat the stove. It's a way to heat the flue with wasted heat rushing out the chimney. This is a difference with EPA stoves.

Your wood may be wet but is too large. You need to split it down to 4-5" across for the regular burns. EPA stoves are different in this way too.

Leftover wood in any stove is a sure sign of wet/green wood.

To see if you need outside air, open a window in the home as a test. Same effect of providing as much air as the draft can suck.

The stove you chose is an excellent stove. Long burns and dependable construction. It's not the stove, it's the operator, the chimney, and the wood.

 

[Locust Cutter]

I had some similar problems, (though nowhere near a bad) with my T-6 when I brainfarted and pulled off of the wrong stack. My stove hates green wood. It will burn green Hedge pretty well, but that's it. As long as the wood is dry however, it rarely leaves any cinders larger than an acorn, if that much. I wish it was a soapstone design, but otherwise I love it!
-Bryan

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

Answers to questions

Lots of questions and suggestions GREAT! I will try to answer them.
1. Our wood is DRY we season the wood in stacks out in the woods for at least a year either split or unsplit and each pile has a piece of tin covering the top not the sides. We then split the larger logs in desired sizes This stove will easily take a 5" x 16" piece for an overnight burn. We obviously use smaller pieces for burns prior to overnight logs and to start fires. There are lots of dead twigs lying around. After wood is split we then stack wood inside a woodshed until we bring it home for inside storage for us or keep at cabin for use there.
So wood is dry.
The leftover chunks in photo was pressed wood in a bag provided by installer that did not burn and left huge cinders under embers.
The cinders are not only large chunks but of the kindling starter wood stored in shed for 1+ years.

2. We were NOT running the stove with damper open on HI to heat the cabin! The manufacturer wanted us to cure the stove of excess moisture that was in steel and bricks, we had to do this for 36 hours straight. A sheer waste of wood

3 Damper is located in front so air supply comes in just under the door I guess. I question where does the cold air supply come in? The opening is in the back under the ash tray so would it feed the rear of the fire box. Manufacturer did NOT answer this when asked. Opening a window would not help if a supply intake vent is not available to fireplace.

4. Chimney requirement is 15', we have 16'9" and the size is increased from the 6" to an insert within the cinder blocks measuring 7"x7".

5. Measurement of temps were on outside of double wall chimney, and on top of the stove under the warmer plates at this area we got a reading of 500 degrees max

6. We do not need to buy someone else's wood we know nothing about. I burn the exact same wood from same wood stacks in my fireplace and so does my dad and we do NOT have any problems. I put in 2- 5.5" x 16" split ash log for overnight at 11 pm and at 6 am it is still log shape embers. Put in 2 more and good until noon. The embers all break down into fly ash. I have to work at keeping a bed of embers for the all nighters.

7. The embers did not break down into small pieces or light grey ash despite the high temps. Sparks would fly when told by manufacturer to stir the embers forward and cold embers from bottom to top. The bed of embers became so thick 5"+ we could only put small logs inside. We emptied the hot embers (actually we tried picking out the colder ones from the bottom) but they still smoldered off our ash bucket of the paint.

8 Our old stove is in pieces.

 

[Phil_Marino]

The company then said we need to cure the iron and bricks of the moisture that is inside of them.

That is complete nonsense. Iron is not porous and does not contain significant water. And, fire bricks are very porous, so, once you get them above 221F for even a short time, any water will boil away instantly.

Whoever told you this is either totally ignorant, or just lying to you to avoid dealing with the problem. Either way, there wouldn't be much point is asking for more advice from him. ( or, that company)

Phil

 

[sunfish]

Is this your first air tight, EPA stove? Like said, it takes time to learn how they work. Very different from older stoves, or fireplaces.

2. We were NOT running the stove with damper open on HI to heat the cabin! The manufacturer wanted us to cure the stove of excess moisture that was in steel and bricks, we had to do this for 36 hours straight. A sheer waste of wood

And that is just wrong! The person you talked to didn't know what they were talking about. Could, or did damage the stove and could have burnt the house down.

Looks like a nice stove. Were is it made?

 

[reaperman]

It sounds like draft is one of the issues, but I think one of your main problems is your running the draft wide open to try to heat with the stove. You never run a EPA stove wide open to try to heat. You load the stove, get it good and hot where you start to see secondary combustion, then back it down in a couple of stages. They burn 100% different than the stoves from years ago. Its not something that you will get right away. Once you have a good hot firebox and that damper closes, you will get a light show and you will have good long hot burns. Your flue temps will drop as the stove top increases. If you need to run the stove with the air controls open, either your wood isn't seasoned properly, or you have draft issues. DId you measure the 350 on the surface of the double wall flue, or internal. And do you have a thermometer for the stove?
I see you posted on hearth, a bunch of good people there to help also. Don't get discouraged, they take some getting used to, but once you do you won't go back.

:agree2: This is excellent advice

Another thing, if you are burning hardwoods one year may not be sufficient enough for proper drying. I burn almost exclusively red oak and it needs two years minimum. And occasionally I still hear hissing in the wood stove. Best of luck, I know it can be frustrating. With the old wood stoves, simply opening or closing the air supply was the answer to all situations.

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

Stove is EPA
Wood moisture reading on several pieces of wood in our woodshed were ranging between 16-19, split and unsplit.

Steel insert is insert within solid cinder blocks.

 

[myzamboni]

I'm with TreeCo:

4. Chimney requirement is 15', we have 16'9" and the size is increased from the 6" to an insert within the cinder blocks measuring 7"x7".

that 7x7 is killing your draft. The manual calls for 6" pipe for a reason. In addition, a 90 degree bend takes away the equivalent of ~3 ft of straight pipe for draft purposes (and you technically have two 90 degree bends). You need another 6 foot of pipe and you probably need to run a 6" liner in your 7x7 which is going to be a PITA.

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

:agree2: This is excellent advice

Another thing, if you are burning hardwoods one year may not be sufficient enough for proper drying. I burn almost exclusively red oak and it needs two years minimum. And occasionally I still hear hissing in the wood stove. Best of luck, I know it can be frustrating. With the old wood stoves, simply opening or closing the air supply was the answer to all situations.

The trees we cut for firewood on property are already dead, we have so many trees that die such as the Ash and trees that get blown down or over from storms we can't keep up or hope to cut a live tree that would need longer drying times. At this time we have wood in the wood shed labeled for available to use last year and that is what we are burning.
We have been splitting the wood lately (as long as the splitter works for us) as we cut it to save steps and it also helps in the drying process. Our piles are stacked with a piece of tin on top to keep water off and open on sides and on top of logs to keep pile off ground. We then gather the piles and stack them according to years in the wood shed. A lot of work and shuffling but we burn the oldest first or leftovers from previous years before the new splits. Our wood is dry.


We put in paper,pieces of flaky bark in the fireplace during reloads on top of the bed of embers and it smoked for several minutes and glowed red at edges until I finally lit it with a match.

It probably is draft but need least inexpensive fix. It is NOT the wood, News Paper remains intact but turns black at rear of firebox for at least 30 minutes during a burn on HI while the log is burning in front only. Can anybody explain this

Photo of piles of wood seasoning from 2 years ago I am just getting to this wood this year it has been in woodshed for a year and our garage for 6 months In other words we make sure our firewood is dry:

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

On another note we heat our house in SE Michigan with our fireplace a Lennox Montecito an EPA fireplace. Very good and efficient I might add.

I use the same wood as we use at cabin from the same woodshed and we burn at our house as needed to heat the house 24 hours/day. For the heating season last year Oct-May or whenever we ended. We had the chimney cleaned and the light powdery ash that came out the bottom was enough to fill a Folger 2#coffee can almost a third full. Is that wet, Green wood? NO

At cabin we have an air supply problem or draft problem and need an inexpensive fix.
We tried to have another fireplace installed at first but they broke the chimney and blamed us. It was expensive repair tacked on to the cost of the Alderlea T5 install and now this fireplace is not burning to our expectations or at least mine. I saw all the great reviews as did my parents so we are dissapointed in how we are getting such a poor performance from our stove.

 

[dingeryote]

RCR,

It sounds like the only burn you are getting is at the point of air wash, and it's insufficient in volume to allow for combusting the rest of the fire load.

That means restriction somewhere.
Inlet or outlet.

I get the same incomplete burn symptoms when the spark screen gets partially choked up. The new stoves like to move LOTS of air and that means adequate draft or better.

Keep calling the manufacturer untill you talk with someone that has thier #### wired. Moisture my hairy tucas!!! Does the thing slosh when you bump it?
Fer cryin' out loud!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[RCR 3 EVER]

RCR,

It sounds like the only burn you are getting is at the point of air wash, and it's insufficient in volume to allow for combusting the rest of the fire load.

That means restriction somewhere.
Inlet or outlet.

I get the same incomplete burn symptoms when the spark screen gets partially choked up. The new stoves like to move LOTS of air and that means adequate draft or better.

Keep calling the manufacturer untill you talk with someone that has thier #### wired. Moisture my hairy tucas!!! Does the thing slosh when you bump it?
Fer cryin' out loud!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

Installer just says keep filling with firewood and burning on HI she will call back and Never calls back, we lost hunting time coming in early for her non returned calls:angry2:

Manufacturer transfered us to a local installer after we talked to them about the problem. We asked that it not be the same installer that installed fireplace and did not return calls. Guess who they transferred the call to!:bang:

 

[dingeryote]

Installer just says keep filling with firewood and burning on HI she will call back and Never calls back, we lost hunting time coming in early for her non returned calls:angry2:

Manufacturer transfered us to a local installer after we talked to them about the problem. We asked that it not be the same installer that installed fireplace and did not return calls. Guess who they transferred the call to!:bang:

Next time ask the gals name. Then ask to speak to her supervisor because you obviously are getting nowhere speaking with her or waiting for calls that do not come in.

Ask and write down everyones name and extension# you speak with, and get the name and phone numbers of those that are supposed to call you in the future... be direct, but polite, and be tenacious about pressing the matter.

As soon as they figure out you are compiling day,date, time, whom, and statements as opposed to actions, they will start wondering about lawyers getting involved in the future, and put a bootheel into the installers ass for making them look like idiots.

Give the second installer some leeway though. He may not be getting paid his regular rate to deal with such matters, or even tired of cleaning up others messes. Ya never know, and he's likely a decent Joe.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[deerlakejens]

I just looked at the Pacific Energy website and scanned the manual for your stove. It mentions an air supply beneath the ash pan that must be open, is that right? It clearly sounds like you have a draft problem but your chimney would seem fine to me, maybe creating too much draft if anything because of the slightly larger diameter liner. I'd recheck the manual about your air intake before I did anything else. It looks like a great stove, I know PE stoves have a great reputation around here.