Newbie 066 Project saw

[NuggyBuggy]

In another thread I mentioned that I was gifted a project 066. Dealer had quoted replacement of cylinder and piston, clutch, carb, bar, recoil and a whole bunch of other smaller stuff. The biggie was the cylinder and piston which we were told were badly scored.

I started thinking about rebuilding with aftermarket parts as I can't afford OEM at the prices I was quoted, but I figured I ought to take a look first.

The first thing I noticed was that the cylinder had not been removed - there was a thick layer of dirt covering the cylinder bolts that was undisturbed. So I figured the scoring must have been bad enough to be visible through the exhaust.

I pulled the muffler. I'm a newbie, but I do have a few project saws that I've torn apart, and this piston does not look nearly as bad as some pistons I've seen, but maybe it's still obviously bad *enough*. After trying to clear the sheen of oil on the piston by sticking a Kleenex through the exhaust port, I think I can even see very regular lines horizontal to the travel of the piston which look almost like machining. Should I be able to see this or should the surface of the piston be perfectly smooth ?

Unfortunately, I couldn't pull the cylinder since I don't have a Torx driver on hand that will fit through the access holes, so I couldn't investigate further. I'll do this in a few days and detail what I find.

I know that there are tests (e.g. compression/pressure/vacuum) that I will want to do to really know where things are at.

But right now, until I can do those tests, I'm really looking for some impressions from the local gurus as to what they see in the following pictures, so I can learn what to look for. Are the cylinder and piston obviously toast ? Does the clutch look like garbage ? Is the carb obviously a write-off ? Or is it impossible to tell from the pictures ?

Thanks everyone - I'm ready to learn !

Piston rings showing



Piston 2:
Piston 3:
Looking over top of piston:


Clutch:



Carb

 

[MustangMike]

I'm not the expert here, I'm sure others will chip in, but horizontal lines on the piston (machine marks) are a good thing, and usually reflect a low hour saw.

Would like to see a better pic of the piston, and the cylinder. I can't tell if there is vertical scoring in the cylinder, the pics don't look bad to me.

Does the saw have good compression? You may have a real nice saw there.

 

[jmssaws]

Can't tell from the pics but I don't c anything wrong. Clutch on a 660 are bad to wear where the springs hook. No idea why it would need a carb. Sounds like the dealor was gonna replace everything on it that could make it not run, typical parts changer.

 

[flyinghunter]

Perhaps the dealer just wanted to sell you a new saw. Does the saw go?

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks guys. I know my pictures aren't great... It's Hard to take a shot through the exhaust without getting glare on the piston. My friend said the saw would only start if gas was put in the carb. I never got to try it myself. Shop did say it wouldn't hold vacuum or pressure.


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[NuggyBuggy]

Perhaps the dealer just wanted to sell you a new saw. Does the saw go?

I will say that the shop guy was saying how my money would be better spent on a new saw.


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[drf255]

And I would say that there's a good chance the shop guy was FOS.

How did he know that the cylinder was toast without removing it? Looking at the intake wall through the exhaust can be quite deceiving. Sometimes reflection and oil can look like scoring. I've had that happen a bunch of times to me.

You think he really pressure tested it? How? Looks like he did nearly nothing. Clutch looks normal too.

See if there's and side to side wobble on the crank. Especially the clutch side.

The piston does look scored though. The carb probably needs a rebuild kit.

You need to find out what scored that piston in the first place. Certainly coulda been bad fuel delivery form the carb or a bad fuel filter causing the saw to lean out. Point is, you're gonna have to vacuum test the saw before you attempt running it-no matter what. Otherwise you'll be back at square one fast.

Stuff paper towels in the ports and blow the entire saw off with air. Then hit it with mineral spirits and a paint brush and blow it off again.

Then disassemble and keep the pics coming.

 

[Deets066]

Cylinder did look scored but not bad and is useable if cleaned up properly.

 

[burnses]

keep going and clean that thing up....I think ya got a runner in the making there.....looks like your working in you dorm room!

good luck

 

[swatbwana]

I'm thinking a few hours work and a new piston and rings she'll be running amok in the wood again.


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[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks again guys. It looks like maybe, just maybe, there's hope here !

You think he really pressure tested it? How?

I did see shop notes on a work order which had entries like "Pressure test and vac test - leaking". Of course, that means nothing if the shop or shop guy is dishonest. I really hope they're not. But then the work order also had an entry that said "carb pressure good", but then they quoted for a replacement carb.

See if there's and side to side wobble on the crank. Especially the clutch side.

Dumb question, but if there's play in the crank, won't it move to *both* sides ? I have to pull the cylinder, right - there's no way to do this with the cylinder on ?

You need to find out what scored that piston in the first place. Certainly coulda been bad fuel delivery form the carb or a bad fuel filter causing the saw to lean out. Point is, you're gonna have to vacuum test the saw before you attempt running it-no matter what. Otherwise you'll be back at square one fast.

Understood. I intend to learn everything I need to do to do this right. I just wanted to see if there's something I can learn from a visual inspection, just in case I happen to pick up more old saws in the future ;-)

Stuff paper towels in the ports and blow the entire saw off with air. Then hit it with mineral spirits and a paint brush and blow it off again.

After I hit it with mineral spirits, do I need to lubricate the outside of the saw ? And, I've been watching a lot of shop videos on Youtube, and a lot of times the guys are wearing gloves. Is it bad to be touching the crap on the saws with your skin, or is this just to save them from nicks and cuts, or to keep their hands clean ?

looks like your working in you dorm room!good luck

LOL. It's the dining room table at my cottage. Fortunately my wife didn't see ;-) But yeah - we keep house like a freshman keeps a dorm room- the pics don't show all the things I just pushed to one side to make room !

We're up at our cottage now and some of the tools I need (like longer Torx driver) are at home. I couldn't sleep last night, kept thinking about the fastest way to get a longer Torx driver in the morning, and whether I should buy a parts washer !!

Thanks again everyone ! I think I'm gonna make a run to the hardware store.

 

[MustangMike]

If your piston still has machine marks, and no bad vertical lines, you may just need to clean the cylinder and get a set of rings.

The vacuum problem could be seals or other rubber parts, which should also be replaced. I don't think I would get them through that dealer, as I'll bet his mark up is substantial. Does not sound like he wants to work with you.

Hard to judge from the pics, but seems like you may have a real nice project saw there.

 

[Definitive Dave]

I think I see light even vertical scoring on the piston with a bit of tiny chipping on the top edge of the piston.
My bet is on a nice cylinder that might not even need any "work" beyond a gentle cleaning.
Stick a new set of rubber parts on it, a new OEM or Meteor piston and either a carb or carb kit and I bet it is a good runner for under $100.00 in parts.
DD

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I pulled off the cylinder and cleaned as best I could with mineral spirits. Unfortunately my compressor is a $70 special, so it took a long time to blow all that crap off with all the recycling it needed to do. I didn't wash it with water because we have a well at our cottage and I didn't want that stuff getting in the groundwater.

I pulled the cylinder but unfortunately left my camera at the cottage so can't post pics. But I did bring my saw with me back to the city so I'll be able to snap some pictures this week. I wasn't able to pull the carb cover off, however. The service manual says something about heating it to get it off. I didn't know if that was safe with mineral spirits possibly in the saw so I skipped this. How the heck do you do this ?

Since I couldn't get the carb cover off, to get the cylinder off I had to push the manifold out through the carb cover. The IPL shows a hose clamp on the manifold but there was none on this saw. When I got it the manifold off there was a crack in the rubber near the carb end. It might have happened when I was trying to get it off, but I did try to be careful. Not sure if it would have leaked when it was squished inside the carb hole or not. If so, I'm guessing that wouldn't explain why the saw would only start with gas in the carb anyways.

I couldn't see any real bad scoring in the cylinder - if I run my fingertip across the surface, I can't detect any indentation. But, I will defer to the experts when I can get some pictures up.

The piston also looked not bad to my newbie eyes. It does look like there's a part that wore unevenly. It's like a little patch where you can see the machining marks. I am not sure I understand how that can happen without that patch on the whole length of the piston.

I noticed a lot of space between the crankshaft arms (is that the right term?) and the part that connects to the piston. There's a lot of side to side play there, if the piston-connecting part is to one side, you can actually see part of the underlying bearing. Not sure if that is normal or not.

There is no up/down play I can detect when either holding the arms steady and trying to move the piston-connecting part up/down, and none when I hold the piston-connecting part steady and try to move the piston up and down. I think I read that is a good thing.

On the crankshaft arms, I think the narrow part (the part that is highest when the piston is highest) on one side looks funny. One side doesn't look like the other, almost like a chunk was taken off the top. This will need a picture.

I can see that at least one of the rubber mounts (the big one on the flywheel side, I think) needs replacing. I've already ordered a full set of aftermarket mounts and rubber pieces from huztl (I think) on Ebay. I've also asked them to hold off shipping until I can figure out what else I might need to order. They've been pretty accommodating to deal with.

Pics will come, I promise.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Since I've cleaned the parts with mineral spirits, do I need to coat them with oil to prevent them from rusting ? They're all in zip-loc bags now.

 

[blsnelling]

I do not see what looks like scoring on your piston, maybe just some carbon scratching. It sounds very much to me like you're dealer is trying to rip you off.

 

[swatbwana]

I do not see what looks like scoring on your piston, maybe just some carbon scratching. It sounds very much to me like you're dealer is trying to rip you off.

Yup that piston looked worn but not needing replaced

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[jmssaws]

I've rebuilt several scored and lean seized saws that I never could find anything wrong with. Maybe somebody with a screwdriver that was trying to get all of it?

 

[NuggyBuggy]

These pictures aren't ideal. I wrestled for quite a while on trying to figure out how to take pictures inside cylinders. Any advice is appreciated. I either get darkness or glare coming back at me, the latter when taking pictures of pistons as well.

Here's a few pics of the cylinder:

There's a sort of curve I notice on the inside of the cylinder, in this picture sort of like a backwards S. I see the same curve on each side of the exhaust and intake ports - but mirror images of each other. Is this normal ?

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Here's pictures of the piston:

Different lighting reveals slightly different features:
Not sure if looking inside the piston reveals anything:


If this piston is reusable, how am I ever going to be able to see which way the arrow points ??