Newbie Alaskan mill question

[NuggyBuggy]

I've bought the Granberg Alaskan mill setup for a 48" bar. I first got into chainsaws because I want to mill a big log my neighbour gave me. I got distracted and fascinated by chainsaw repair, but now need to get back on track.

I'm hoping to do a trial run soon (hopefully this weekend) on some smaller logs, maybe 18" wide.

I have an Echo CS8000 (80cc) with a 36" bar that I'm hoping to put to use.

Questions:

1. If I have the 48" Alaskan/Granberg, can I use a smaller bar ? It seems like I ought to, but I wanted to be sure.

2. Both saws have "regular" chain. I don't know what the specs are. I know that ripping chain is supposed to leave a smoother finish and cut quicker. Is this necessary for my first runs ?

3. Auxiliary oiler. I should have ordered one, but my dealer (Lee Valley) didn't sell them and now that I want to get going, of course it is a devil to find one available.

Is it easy enough to make one ? Norwood Industries is about 10 minutes from my cottage but they say their aux oiler

will ONLY work with their mills. Not sure if that's true or not... seems to be simple, but maybe there's just no good way to mount on another mill ? Also, their oiler looks like it just squirt oil on top of the bar... I read that the Granberg oiler puts oil inside the bar.

Does anyone know if I can use the Norwood oiler on a Granberg type mill ?

4. I read about guys using canola oil, others using ATF. Opinions ?

5. I am very sensitive to dust. Thinking about using a powered respirator like the 3m HEPA Airstream which I happen to own:

Would this offer me enough protection compared to a regular saw helmet with shield ? Claims it "Combines NIOSH/MSHA Approved helmeted respirator with ANSI Approved head and eye face protection" but not sure what this means in a chainsaw application.


thanks guys - so excited.
terry

 

[hamish]

Terry,
#1
YES
#2
not necessary at all, as you sharpen your chain gradually change the top plate angle to 10 degree or less
#3
The Norwood oiler will not work with you mill out of the box, and will require alot of mods to work right. Look up aux oilers on here and you will get a wealth of info. Think simple.......the Norwood oiler its a supersize flintstone vitamin bottle with a brass barb in the bottom of it, coupled to a fuel line, mated to a coupling nut with a simple brass tie in valve mounted to it. All in about $10 bucks at a good hardware store.

#4 use whatever you want, canola is going to leave a sticky mess and atf is too light to stick around..........theres a reason they make bar oil

#5 the airstream is ok, but mainly to reduce fogging, if you are sensitive to dust and airborne particles, you may have your hands full, as milling produces alot. Give the Airstream a try, the fines in your nose and mouth afterwards as well as your well being will be an indication if it worked, and you already have one..............I sand blasted a truck frame wearing a army gas mask back years ago, worked great!

Jeremy

 

[gemniii]

#5 - I think a HELMETED respirator is overkill for milling. You've got the log flat, nothing should be falling from above. I'd go with a decent breathing filter and good hand, eye and ear protection.

Most people report making more fine sawdust milling than crosscutting. You'll also have a lot of close 2stroke fumes until you get fancy.

 

[BobL]

I think hamish has nailed most of the questions.

RE; Canola:
I would not use canola in my saw but it is fine for an Aux oiler. If the Aux oiler is fitted on the cutting side of the bar it does not need to be sticky and I find it does not leave a sticky mess because it is easily flung off the drive sprocket with the sawdust.

RE; Helmet/ Respirator
I also have some sensitivities and have a similar respirator made by Triton but I rarely use it except when milling small pieces of bone dry hardwoods. The Helmeted respirator is FAR better and more comfortable than any nose/mouth gas mask respirator. Most people don't realize that if you are sensitive in the nose/mouth area your eyes will be as well. The Helmet is somewhat irrelevant - it's just a support mechanism so the air stream can flow up from the filter located behind the operator and wash down over the operators eyes nose and mouth. The triton has a high clarity full wrap around polycarbonate face shield so that it can easily be flipped up and out of the way. This is much easier than removing a gas mask.

One thing that really helps is to just get your head as far away from the saw exhaust and saw dust exit as possible.
The problem with using most CS without any exhaust mods is when milling the top half of the log, the exhaust gases bounce upwards into the operators face.
This problem can be reduced by using a remote throttle and if necessary modding the exhaust so that it directs the exhaust and sawdust away from the operator.
Have a look at my "BIL mill with 880" link in my sig below.

A cheaper solution that gets the operator even further away is using a combination of a remote throttle and winch. Have a look in Will Malloff's book on "Chainsaw lumbermaking" or in the sticky (permanent first thread on this forum) for ideas on winches.

The other very significant issue is not to over use 2-stroke lube in your mix. Lube has all sorts of gunk in it that is largely invisible so there is a tendency to use more than necessary in mix. I have a threshold of about 30:1, when I go below this mix ratio I will eventually get a headache.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your replies ! I had my first go at this weekend - with not much success. I decided to go without auxiliary oiler while I "played" on a smaller (18") log... mainly because the light was going to be falling, I didn't have time to rig something up, and I really felt the need to have at least a short trial.

I will be trying to run vegetable oil. The guy at my local shop convinced me that, because I will be milling close to a stream that feeds our lake, and because we take our water from a well, that it was the responsible and safe thing to do.

I had an aluminum ladder which I planned to use to guide my first cut, but discovered it was warped. So I screwed in a 2x10 to the top and planned to use that. Now, since there was some taper in the log, I expected that the board would sag when I got a few feet into the cut, but I had already decided that if I made it that far, I was going to be ecstatic and would have learned a lot.

Although I only managed to make it about 6" into my first log, it wasn't a wasted exercise: I still did learn a lot.

1- I need to learn how to move and position logs into places where I can work them better. These logs were somewhat crosswise on each other in a shallow depression on my property, with saplings and other trees nearby. I had to cut one just to be able to have a narrow path along the operator side of the log, and working along that length wouldn't have been easy - or perhaps safe.

2- I discovered my Echo CS8000 was hard to start when sideways on the mill. Actually, I couldn't start it at all. Not sure if that is normal.

3- Consequently, I had to start the saw off the log and then carrying the mill and mounting on the guide while running. I didn't feel safe mounting the mill and running saw, even with chain brake on.

4- The saw, 36" bar, mill, and full tank of gas can feel pretty heavy and awkward.

5. When trying to get the saw into the cut, I quickly found myself behind the mill. This also didn't seem safe as my abdomen just seemed very accessible to that blade. All it would take would have been a stumble. I realized I need to study videos of the mill in operation more. I expected this to be one of the trickier parts for a newbie.

6. When I finally got into wood, the saw wasn't moving very fast. But, I didn't run ripping chain, and I never have done this, so I don't honestly know what to expect, so maybe that was normal.

After a few inches I decided that I didn't feel safe, learned a few things I needed to know more about before I would feel safe, and decided to call it an experience.

I'll have another go at it next weekend, I hope.

thanks everyone !
terry

 

[mtngun]

5. When trying to get the saw into the cut, I quickly found myself behind the mill. This also didn't seem safe as my abdomen just seemed very accessible to that blade. All it would take would have been a stumble. I realized I need to study videos of the mill in operation more. I expected this to be one of the trickier parts for a newbie.

Your guide board should protrude about 12" beyond the end of the log, that way your mill is supported by the guide board when starting and ending the cut.

 

[820wards]

NuggyBuggy

3. Auxiliary oiler. I should have ordered one, but my dealer (Lee Valley) didn't sell them and now that I want to get going, of course it is a devil to find one available.

Here is a the link to a auxiliary oilier I built for a friends Alaskan mill. Simple to build and it works good. You can use what ever bottle you like for the oil bottle as long as it can adapt to a pipe fitting.

jerry-

http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/155667.htm

 

[gemniii]

<snip>
2- I discovered my Echo CS8000 was hard to start when sideways on the mill. Actually, I couldn't start it at all. Not sure if that is normal.

If it won't start laying on it's side off the mill it may need fixing. Sometimes you just have to stop the saw part way thru the cut, then restart it. Not recommended, but it happens.

3- Consequently, I had to start the saw off the log and then carrying the mill and mounting on the guide while running. I didn't feel safe mounting the mill and running saw, even with chain brake on.

I never feel "safe" running a chain saw unless I've taken the chain off

4- The saw, 36" bar, mill, and full tank of gas can feel pretty heavy and awkward.

Try swinging a 660 w/ 42" bar and an aux oiler.

5. When trying to get the saw into the cut, I quickly found myself behind the mill. This also didn't seem safe as my abdomen just seemed very accessible to that blade. All it would take would have been a stumble. I realized I need to study videos of the mill in operation more. I expected this to be one of the trickier parts for a newbie.

like mntgun wrote have your "rail system" extend in front and back of the cut far enough so you can get your rails on it.

6. When I finally got into wood, the saw wasn't moving very fast. But, I didn't run ripping chain, and I never have done this, so I don't honestly know what to expect, so maybe that was normal.

Read some of mntgun's excellent posts on cut speed. Unless your cutting REAL SOFT wood it's going to be slow.

After a few inches I decided that I didn't feel safe, learned a few things I needed to know more about before I would feel safe, and decided to call it an experience.

I'll have another go at it next weekend, I hope.

thanks everyone !
terry

Others will disagree but I feel "safe" as I write this, sitting in my Laz-Boy. As soon as I fire up one of my saws with a chain on it I feel about as safe as when I used to hurtle down the road on my Harley or flying in a Huey with the doors off so I could shoot out. Just be WELL AWARE of the dangers, plan to avoid them, prepare for their results IF they happen and forge on. I usually wear a full range of PPE when doing "serious" chain saw use. Thankfully so far my most serious injury has been when I reached across a NON-RUNNING chain, nicked my forearm and lost a bit of blood.
Don't get complacent, running chainsaws are dangerous, bu so isn't most things in life that are exciting.

/edit - I was shooting 70mm Hasselblads out of the Huey's.

 

[hamish]

/edit - I was shooting 70mm Hasselblads out of the Huey's.

Thats a camera isn't it................

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I actually bought 3 Hassy 500-series bodies within the last 2 years thinking I was going to get into film and medium format... then life got in the way. When I took my first hassy out, people would give me a wide berth and study whatever it was I was shooting, as if I was a real pro I don't get nearly the same sort of respect when I pull out my D700. But I'd guess that shooting action with that body has to be challenging.

 

[bigjohn1895]

i would like to note that a chainsaw is safer then an angle grinder but when they bite they bite harder

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I wanted to let you all know that I managed to mill my first, very short, board.

Finding time is really hard as my wood and saws are at my cottage and when I am up there, my young kids are always wanting me to do something with them. This weekend, I was feeling especially motivated. I still hadn't learned how to sharpen a chain (let alone to ripping specs) or procured a ladder; I hadn't figured out how to support it, and also hadn't figured out how to move the logs somewhere I could safely work them, AND hadn't built an aux oiler, but as I said I felt motivated and didn't want to waste that feeling. I tend to be one of those paralysis-by-analysis guys.

I realized I could secure the ladder with tie-downs and cut up to the first strap, then cross cut the piece free. I figured I could make those cuts safely, going any farther would require more climbing over logs than I figured would be safe. Here's a picture of the setup (after I made the cut and removed the ladder), as I look at it now I think it was probably a bit more hazardous than I thought it was, because for some of it I am kneeling or standing on the other logs.

Anyways, I guessed that even milling a small piece would teach me a few things, such as how fast I could expect milling to proceed and how hard it was.

So I setup the 36" bar on my Echo CS8000, and decided to go at it with straight cross-cut chain.

Maybe 5-10 minutes later, I had about 2-3' of what to me was a beautiful looking board. I didn't cut more because we were going to go home soon and I didn't have a long enough cut to ride very far with the mill.

I learned the following things:
- I REALLY need to learn how to move the logs.
- Getting the saw into the wood definitely seemed to be the most dangerous part. I felt like I had to lean on the mill to get it into the cut, and it seemed like a little slip could easily bring me in contact with all that still-unexposed chain.
- I know milling was said to be hard work, but I underestimated just how hard. My back and right shoulder were sore afterwards. Now I know the log was lower than is ideal, and I may have been pushing into it harder than I should. As I said, I really need to learn how to move the logs.

But the most important things I learned were:
- I can do it !
- the wood can be beautiful, and it's a satisfying feeling knowing that I did it.
- it's fun !

Here's a picture of what I cut, right off the tree:

With some water on it to show more of the grain:

Now I know that this is all nothing special to you guys, but I was really proud of myself. I am about the least likely guy you would ever imagine would be working with big chainsaws milling wood. My buddy who was up and my neighbour were also amazed and impressed that I managed to do it after nearly a year of talking about trying it.

 

[mtngun]

Congratulations ! Thanks for the pics.

 

[BobL]

I learned the following things:
- I REALLY need to learn how to move the logs.

Look up "cant hooks" on the forum

- Getting the saw into the wood definitely seemed to be the most dangerous part. I felt like I had to lean on the mill to get it into the cut, and it seemed like a little slip could easily bring me in contact with all that still-unexposed chain.

I've had 60" chains come off maybe half a dozen time and all have been decidedly unspectacular events. I have only ever broken on chain and that also was quite unspectacular.
The most dangerous thing about any milling activity is just driving to the site
Have you seen my personal risk assessment list for milling in the Milling 101 sticky?
In regards being worried bout lifting a running saw - if you have a chain brake then use it otherwise it's just a matter of getting used to it.

- I know milling was said to be hard work, but I underestimated just how hard. My back and right shoulder were sore afterwards. Now I know the log was lower than is ideal, and I may have been pushing into it harder than I should.

Like any chain sawing pushing should minimal. If you are pushing hard and getting a sore back from such a short cut something is not right - start by getting and keeping the chain razor sharp and make sure the rakers are set correctly. 9 out 10 saws I see the rakers are WAY too high.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks Bob.

Look up "cant hooks" on the forum

I have started reading about cant hooks and peaveys. However, the real log I want to mill is maybe 3-4 times wider than the ones shown there, I'm guessing maybe 30" diameter and 40' long. It's also on my neighbour's property separated by a fairly dense treeline and stream, so I'm looking at either milling it there or moving it to my property and doing it there. Because of the dust created, I'm thinking he'd appreciate it if I did it on my property....

When I was doing a search on moving logs, it seems most of the guys were talking about using bobcats, backhoes, ATVs and winches.

Have you seen my personal risk assessment list for milling in the Milling 101 sticky?

Yup, I've seen that list, point taken I used to surf a lot, and the most dangerous thing about it was pulling a U-turn into a parking spot on the Pacific Coast Highway.

In regards being worried bout lifting a running saw - if you have a chain brake then use it otherwise it's just a matter of getting used to it.

I do use the chain brake, and I was able to start my saw while on the mill, so that's not an issue any more. I might just not have had enough fuel in it the first time. Or not eaten my Wheaties.

Like any chain sawing pushing should minimal. If you are pushing hard and getting a sore back from such a short cut something is not right - start by getting and keeping the chain razor sharp and make sure the rakers are set correctly. 9 out 10 saws I see the rakers are WAY too high.

Chain was very sharp. Not sure about how the rakers were set. Maybe I was pushing too much, I don't know. This was my first cut so I have no experience as to what is enough. I do believe some or most of the back pain was coming from being stooped over to handle the mill. If I could lift it as seen in some of your pictures, among others, I'm sure that would make things much easier. I'm already thinking about fastening the handles of the mill to some sort of winch or ratcheting mechanism so that I can pull the saw while standing. And trying to understand your remote throttle !

Thanks again Bob.
terry

 

[locdogg]

i'm a newbie too, but after having milled a few logs--------- get that log up off the ground and get one end higher so you can mill downhill a bit. it's waaaay easier than pushing on your knees.

 

[Marcintosh]

log handling video

I lurk here a fair amount but this thread really interested me and I'd like to contribute to the fray

I learned a great deal from this video- no I don't have one of these and I don't work for them but the info might just give you an idea on how to move logs. It helped me figure out a better system and that I needed a cant hook

Logosol M5 | Sawmills | LOGOSOL

These guys have some great gear as well. Not that you should buy any but perhaps you could make something similar
LogRite Tools logging tools

If you poke around, they also feature some great "how to use this gear" videos as well.

BTW you don't mention the use of wedges or that you are planning on using wedges but I use them to take the weight off the saw's bar. I always use plastic wedges so if I have a problem I don't chew the chain up. Yeah it gets a bit pricey in the beginning but when you get the hang of remembering you put one in behind the bar on the other side, you'll be all set.

G'luck
M

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I found that Logosol link very interesting, Thanks marcintosh. Gives me better ideas as to how to get a log to a better working height.

I just bought a Logrite peavey. There are no Logrite retailers near me and I really wanted one this weekend. I emailed Logrite and Tammy told me that they also make the Stihl peaveys and cant hooks, and that that probably the fastest way to get one. One of my local dealers had them in stock, and this beauty was about 15$ cheaper than the only wooden handled one I could find readily available locally. This was the first time I'd ever used one (mind you, this is pretty much true for everything I do mill- or saw-related), but I was astounded at how easily one could move things !

And yeah, I did buy a bunch of plastic wedges, I have about 8 Stihls that I grabbed off the shelf. At first I started with 3 but as I get closer to doing larger boards, I decided to not be a cheapskate.

 

[Marcintosh]

back again

I found that Logosol link very interesting, Thanks marcintosh. Gives me better ideas as to how to get a log to a better working height.

I just bought a Logrite peavey. There are no Logrite retailers near me and I really wanted one this weekend. I emailed Logrite and Tammy told me that they also make the Stihl peaveys and cant hooks, and that that probably the fastest way to get one. One of my local dealers had them in stock, and this beauty was about 15$ cheaper than the only wooden handled one I could find readily available locally. This was the first time I'd ever used one (mind you, this is pretty much true for everything I do mill- or saw-related), but I was astounded at how easily one could move things !

And yeah, I did buy a bunch of plastic wedges, I have about 8 Stihls that I grabbed off the shelf. At first I started with 3 but as I get closer to doing larger boards, I decided to not be a cheapskate.

One of the things I like about those videos and the way they show different methods to keep the log out of the dirt. Never fails, I buy a new chain and second log I'm diggin' spuds with it. *&^*%!!

When you have time you might want to watch all the videos on both sites. The Logosol site has some great designs for raising logs and things you can make yourself.
The Logrite site just gives me ideas on how to get things done. I live about 75 minutes away from them but about a million bucks distant, if you catch my drift.

I've got a Stihl cant hook I've used for a while now and I haven't even chipped the paint. Tough stuff. To go along with it I bought the log jack which is sort of handy for me. You latch onto the log and rock back onto the jack and it lifts the log. The property I work on is pretty wet so I have to bring a chunk of 3/4" plywood to sit the jack on. Otherwise it can sink into the mud and becomes useless. Sometimes the 18"x18" ply isn't big enough (big log - softer than usual dirt) I have to bed in a few branches underneath the ply to help stop the whole mess from sinking.

You're slabbing off planks and timbers though so a log jack most likely isn't going to help much OTOH, they're only about $20-$30 or so. You could lift one end and block it then move to the other end and lift that end so perhaps they might just be the system you're looking for.

I would like to point out though, be sure to block the log so it doesn't roll before you start your process, make sure it can't roll. A buddy ended up hobbling out of the woods with a smashed ankle so there's that to think of. Which also makes a case for pulling the log out of the woods to civilization and working on it there. (Wear chaps and other safety gear and ALWAYS carry a cell phone, in case the unthinkable happens)

When I'm pulling out of the woods I try to leave the top of the tree on and put the butt end on an old trailer axle I've got and tow that behind my little garden tractor. Leaving the top on means it can be a PITA working it between trees and you have to get rid of it when you get where you're going but it also means there's less dirt packed into the bark. Mind you, when I do that I'm working a tree that's only about 50-60 years old and usually ash not maple or oak so in general they're less than a foot across and not as heavy as lead.

I've been told that there are aluminum wedges as well and that they don't take your chain either but I've never seen one in use or for sale so I can't say one way or the other.

Thanks for posting pictures and please keep doing it. It can be a cramp in the butt but it's great to see others work and nobody knows everything so, you're teaching someone.

M.

 

[rarefish383]

Bright yellow or orange wedges are nice in the woods. But, most of the time I just grab a dead twig and stick it in the cut and break it off. I've also used tapered door shims that you get at the hardware store in bundles for a couple bucks, Joe.