brown2501
ArboristSite Lurker
Just picked up a used mansfield soapstone wood stove. I have been using it for a week with a lot less heat than my smaller jotel steel stove wife and dauthers are not happy what am I doing wrong ? HELP:msp_confused:
not happy with soapstnoe
- Thread starter brown2501
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zogger
Tree Freak
Reinstall the other stove?
Soapstone has to get pretty hot to start throwing good heat. Steel transmits the heat easier. Soapstone, once warm, keeps throwing it even as the stove cools down. Tradeoffs.
Soapstone has to get pretty hot to start throwing good heat. Steel transmits the heat easier. Soapstone, once warm, keeps throwing it even as the stove cools down. Tradeoffs.
darkbyrd
Forest Hugger
Put more wood in it. Lots of mass to heat up.
sunfish
Fish Head
Jotul is very hard to beat!
Cast iron throws off a lot more heat.
Cast iron throws off a lot more heat.
The “heat” does not “feel” the same coming off soapstone as it does coming of steel… it’s the difference between radiation and conduction. Soapstone is actually used as an insulator for certain applications.
Steel rapidly transfers (conducts) heat from the inside surface to the outside surface, and a steel surface is an excellent radiator. Heat is released from a stove in two ways, conduction and radiation. Air that comes into direct contact with the stove is warmed by conduction, but if there is more heat than conduction alone can remove from the steel it will be “radiated” into the room. Forcing more air across a hot steel surface will cause it to shed more heat by conduction and less by radiation. Radiant heat travels through the air without warming it, but is absorbed by solid surfaces (such as furniture, walls, floors, human flesh, etc.). Those solid surfaces then warm the air by conduction. Radiant heat is the heat you “feel” coming off the stove… it travels for long distances looking for a solid surface (we get heat from the sun by radiation).
Soapstone transfers (conducts) heat from the inside surface to the outside surface at a much slower rate, so it sheds more heat by conduction and less by radiation when compared to steel. In other words, a soapstone stove warms more local air and less distant solid surfaces. Get it hot enough (it takes longer to heat soapstone) and it will still radiate heat, but because it transfers (conducts) heat from inside to outside at a slower rate… you need a hotter fire to keep the outside surface hot enough to out-supply conduction and keep it radiating. So as the fire dies down it will radiate a lot less heat than steel would… i.e. the other side of the room turns cold faster. Soapstone absorbs (holds) a lot of heat (like firebrick) so it will still be warm long after steel turns cold.
Soapstone, and its conductive heat, is ideal for smaller rooms where the radiant heat from a steel stove would make it uncomfortable (i.e. you can’t get far enough away from it). But because they radiate less heat across open spaces, larger rooms will feel cooler as you move away from the stove. And it becomes sort of a catch-22, if you use a fan to move more air across the stove you are increasing the heat conduction and reducing the heat radiation even more. As more heat is used to warm air, less is available to warm solid surfaces. Yes, solid surfaces will eventually be warmed by the air… but it’s not the same, it causes the heat to “feel” different to the human body. The only way I know to simplify the explanation is to say the heat from soapstone is a “cooler” heat… if that makes sense?
I personally don’t like soapstone for heating (they are pretty though)… heck, I even removed some of the firebrick from my firebox to increase the rate of heat transfer. The (so-called) “slow release” of stored heat from firebrick (and soapstone) as the fire burns down is meaningless when it’s friggin’ cold outside; just give me heat, and lot’s of it… after all, it’s friggin’ cold outside, I ain’t gonna’ let the fire burn down anyway!
Steel rapidly transfers (conducts) heat from the inside surface to the outside surface, and a steel surface is an excellent radiator. Heat is released from a stove in two ways, conduction and radiation. Air that comes into direct contact with the stove is warmed by conduction, but if there is more heat than conduction alone can remove from the steel it will be “radiated” into the room. Forcing more air across a hot steel surface will cause it to shed more heat by conduction and less by radiation. Radiant heat travels through the air without warming it, but is absorbed by solid surfaces (such as furniture, walls, floors, human flesh, etc.). Those solid surfaces then warm the air by conduction. Radiant heat is the heat you “feel” coming off the stove… it travels for long distances looking for a solid surface (we get heat from the sun by radiation).
Soapstone transfers (conducts) heat from the inside surface to the outside surface at a much slower rate, so it sheds more heat by conduction and less by radiation when compared to steel. In other words, a soapstone stove warms more local air and less distant solid surfaces. Get it hot enough (it takes longer to heat soapstone) and it will still radiate heat, but because it transfers (conducts) heat from inside to outside at a slower rate… you need a hotter fire to keep the outside surface hot enough to out-supply conduction and keep it radiating. So as the fire dies down it will radiate a lot less heat than steel would… i.e. the other side of the room turns cold faster. Soapstone absorbs (holds) a lot of heat (like firebrick) so it will still be warm long after steel turns cold.
Soapstone, and its conductive heat, is ideal for smaller rooms where the radiant heat from a steel stove would make it uncomfortable (i.e. you can’t get far enough away from it). But because they radiate less heat across open spaces, larger rooms will feel cooler as you move away from the stove. And it becomes sort of a catch-22, if you use a fan to move more air across the stove you are increasing the heat conduction and reducing the heat radiation even more. As more heat is used to warm air, less is available to warm solid surfaces. Yes, solid surfaces will eventually be warmed by the air… but it’s not the same, it causes the heat to “feel” different to the human body. The only way I know to simplify the explanation is to say the heat from soapstone is a “cooler” heat… if that makes sense?
I personally don’t like soapstone for heating (they are pretty though)… heck, I even removed some of the firebrick from my firebox to increase the rate of heat transfer. The (so-called) “slow release” of stored heat from firebrick (and soapstone) as the fire burns down is meaningless when it’s friggin’ cold outside; just give me heat, and lot’s of it… after all, it’s friggin’ cold outside, I ain’t gonna’ let the fire burn down anyway!
Thanks Whitespider.....Great explanation.
I have a Hearthstone stove. You're right, the way it heats is certainly a trade off. When you get behind on the fire, it sucks getting caught up. But still, if you keep the fire going the house stays warm. Shore is pretty though. Heavy too. Took 4 men to carry it in, and it's not very big. It would be nice if I could fit more wood in it, but it would get way to hot in the house.
The other thing is, use well seasoned wood. They told me that when I bought it, but the wood I had when I installed it wasn't as dry as I thought. I wasn't happy at first either, but when I got good, dry, wood, it worked just fine. Wife says wood stove is one of the best ideas I ever had. Now if I could just get her to help with the wood.
I have a Hearthstone stove. You're right, the way it heats is certainly a trade off. When you get behind on the fire, it sucks getting caught up. But still, if you keep the fire going the house stays warm. Shore is pretty though. Heavy too. Took 4 men to carry it in, and it's not very big. It would be nice if I could fit more wood in it, but it would get way to hot in the house.
The other thing is, use well seasoned wood. They told me that when I bought it, but the wood I had when I installed it wasn't as dry as I thought. I wasn't happy at first either, but when I got good, dry, wood, it worked just fine. Wife says wood stove is one of the best ideas I ever had. Now if I could just get her to help with the wood.
Firebrick lining of firebox does a bunch of VERY GOOD THINGS, so I'd keep it all in place.
Keeping firebox temps up markedly improves combustion efficiency, per scientific test back in the '70s.
Plenty of opportunity for the hot gases to spread heat around after leaving the firebox, in an intelligently designed stove. Maybe not for a POS. :msp_biggrin:
Keeping firebox temps up markedly improves combustion efficiency, per scientific test back in the '70s.
Plenty of opportunity for the hot gases to spread heat around after leaving the firebox, in an intelligently designed stove. Maybe not for a POS. :msp_biggrin:
What opportunities? After hot gases leave my firebox they're in the flue and up the chimney.I'm all for combustion efficiency, as long as it doesn't degrade the ability of the firebox to heat my home... just like I'm all for recycling as long as it doesn't cost me more money. By reconfiguring and removing some of the firebrick, thereby leaving a portion of the firebox unlined, I increased the rate of heat transfer to the air being forced through the plenum. I get warm air much quicker at start-up, and a whole lot warmer air later in the burn cycle as the fire is dieing... I go longer between reloads and get a whole bunch more heat from the coal bed (i.e. I'm using less wood). Now, after removing some brick, and on most days, the wife doesn't add any wood to the fire while I'm at work... she just goes down, knocks the ash off the top of the coal bed and drags them forward on top of the ash (although she complains about having to do it every hour).... that didn't work before, it wouldn't transfer enough heat! (By the time I get home there's mostly ash and I clean it out before adding the evening fuel load.) In my mind I've made the firebox a tremendously more efficient heater (which is what matters), and if that means I've reduced combustion efficiency... well, I really couldn't care any less than I already do.
Combustion efficiency does not heat the home... Heat does.
MotorSeven
Addicted to ArboristSite
What sized house, do you have a flue temp gauge, seasoned wood and are you filling the firebox up? Sounds like you are choking it back too soon and for the duration of the burn.
The Mansfield is a big stove it should run you out of any normal sized living room. I have a H1 the predecessor to the Mansfield and it is currently heating my house from the basement...no problems.
autoimage
ArboristSite Operative
what a great response whitespider....ive had both and currently have soapstone. the difference i see is if your stove heats a room you live in soapstone is less harsh but lets face it either way a nonstop running stove is going to make that room unbearable unless you open windows. maybe you havent perfected the stove yet, it takes me 45 min to get my stove to catalytic temps and i never starve it for air
mizzou
ArboristSite Operative
I was thinking about a mansfield, a dealer near me had one he had dropped about a grand off the one he had in the showroom. After reading this thread I'm going to look at a pe summit and blaze king today.
MotorSeven
Addicted to ArboristSite
WS , have you considered that you may be damaging your frame without the firebrick? It is my understanding that firebrick or a layer of ash/sand in needed on the floor of some stoves to protect the cast iron/steel for excess heat. My Hearthstone has that warning in the instructions. Keep an eye on it and if things start to sag you will know it may need the brick.
OP sorry for the sidetrack ...............:msp_tongue:
OP sorry for the sidetrack ...............:msp_tongue:
MotorSeven
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'd like to run a big Blaze King for a week or so after reading all the positive reviews...they must be a beast.
Also, the output rating for the Mansfield is 80,000 BTU's an hr.....if your not "warm", something is wrong:
Construction:
Heating Efficiency:
Particulate Emissions:
Maximum Output:
Heating Capacity:
Firebox Size:
Hardwood Capacity:
Maximum Log Length:
Flue Size:
Dimensions:
Shipping Weight:
Cast Iron / Soapstone
75%
2.8 grams/hr
80,000 BTU/hr
1800 - 2500 sq. ft.
3.2 cu. ft.
64 lbs
21"
6"
31"T x 27"W x 24"D
585 lbs
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mizzou
ArboristSite Operative
If I remember, ws has done more to his stove than change the fierbrick and has not burned his house down yet. He seems happy with it.
chadihman
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm pretty sure fire brick is also used for protecting the steel or cast from overheating. I paid to much for my stove to sacrifice steel life for a little more heat. Yes the fire brick also keeps more heat in the stove for secondary burn. I like to keep my neighbors happy and would like to keep the rights to burn my woodstove. Its clean and hot thats what I like.
I wouldn't advise anybody to remove fire brick to get more heat from there stove. Try a fan especially if it bolts right onto the stove as an option. My fan made a huge difference.
I wouldn't advise anybody to remove fire brick to get more heat from there stove. Try a fan especially if it bolts right onto the stove as an option. My fan made a huge difference.
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MotorSeven
Addicted to ArboristSite
I never said anything about burning his house down. I also applaud modifying anything to make it function better/more efficient. I looked at a lot of CL stoves before I found one I wanted. Typical overfiring even with brick generally just causes the frame to sag & steel panels to warp and I saw plenty of this. Then things like doors & ash pans just won't fit anymore. All I am saying is that there may be an increased risk of heat damage to these parts by removing the brick.
Spot on about the firebrick. I'm conducting an experiment with 2 stove-top fans- one is a $120+ "Caframo Ecofan" (Seebeck effect thermo-electric) and the other is a $223+ "Vulcan" Stirling-engine unit. Fact is, with the 2 almost side-by-side, they really move hundreds of cfm of heated air over a wide temp range. Very noticeably assist heat output, especially in recovery-rate.
The "ecofan" starts on its own at lower temp differential, has a narrower flow pattern, and doesn't like its motor roasted, I'm told. As received, its motor was mechanically fiended. Replacement was trivially simple, works fine.
Stirling unit (a gamma-type) needs to be a bit hotter (~50 F) to be hand-started, but can run at temps up to 800 F, so they say. When the stove-top is 500 F or hotter, it makes a great hair-dryer.
Think I'll keep both fans, and all the firebrick. Digging clean & efficient. :msp_thumbup:
Jay Shelton, physics prof., did many studies of wood-burners in the late '70s- one result was that firebox temps above 1000 F enabled complete combustion. Keep the box hot.
mizzou
ArboristSite Operative
Sorry, that post did come off a bit smart azzed after I looked a bit closer. Not meant that way. I personally am not going to alter my stove without the dealers ok. Probably won't be altering my stove.:redface:
